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Old May 27, 2008, 08:42 AM   #1
Aqeous
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A completely REALISTIC tactical scenario

A little while back I was walking my dog who is now a 150 pound Rottweiler, at the time however he was nothing more then a puppy barely as tall as a boot . A car drives by, sitting inside in the passenger seat was an a young unruly-looking sort that you just know has already done some time. Driving the car was his girl friend.

Now I am pretty darn sure that I didn't look at him cross eyed . . . I am pretty darn sure all I did was look AT the car to see who was inside because I hadn't seen the vehicle around before. As they round the corner and pass me (being that they had there windows open) I could just barely here him say as he looked right at me "keep looking you **** I will come out there and beat the **** out of you." and his girl friend covered her mouth laughing apparently happy with her choice in boyfriend . . .

I guess years of proper hearing protection at the range as kept my ears in pretty good condition, because even though he said it mostly under his breath , I was still able to here it over the wind and the car engine. Of coarse, if he HAD tried to get out of the car and "beat the ****" out of me" the joke would be on him because I was CCW at the time.

So here is the scenario I'd like to cover today:


Lets say the car screeched to a stop and Mr. fantastic there got out of the car yelling profanities with a violent posture. At first I would back off away from him (being that my Rotty at the time was a puppy--he don't but up with garbage like that now!) and would most likely inform him in a calm but assertive voice that I want no trouble. Being that THAT has probably never worked in the history of mankind . . . I think I would draw him closer to me (and farther away from the car) as far as I could, and begin telling him to Back off! Back off! much more assertively.

And being that THAT barely works half of the time, rather then get into it halfway in the middle of nowhere with someone who is much bigger then me I would most likely pull my CCW.


Here's thing? Anyone ever think about what happens next? You DON'T want him running back to the car to go get what might very well be a gun of his own. (whether he was licensed to carry or not )

1.) Lets say he instantly turns and runs back to the car as fast as he can? I don't think thatS justification to shoot in the eyes of the law. It would be a bullet in the back (and) the legal outcome would most likely depend on whether or not there was ACTUALLY a gun in the vehicle that he was going for. If not, you just shot a fleeing unarmed man . . . BIG trouble that will most likely mean that you will be meeting his friends in the big house.

2.) Your intuition says that this big mindless peace of meat is going for something. That he's not running . . . What do you do . . . your life is now on the line. You can't run, he's the one thats going to shoot you in the back as you flee.

Outcome as best as I can figure:

YOU chase HIM back to his car. If he doesn't instantly jump back in, if he REACHES for anything, you pump him up with several rounds of .45 ACP HST Hollow points.



Any alternatives?

Commence . . .
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Old May 27, 2008, 08:53 AM   #2
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This explains my thoughts. I really can't even formulate a response to this one.
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Old May 27, 2008, 08:54 AM   #3
Musketeer
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You do NOT chase him. Can you see the old lady who watched this from her porch telling the cops how you chased the guy to his car and shot him in the back as he tried to get in...

You learn to apologize and let the moron go on his way with his inflated ego. Your job is not to teach him a lesson or do anything else of the sort. You can call the police after the fact to report the confrontation and his threats. From your "intuition" he may already be on probation and such a call would not be good for him.

You are not going to get away with shooting him because you think he may have a gun on him or in the car.

If he is pretty close, making physical threats absent of obvious lethal force (knife, gun or a very large disparity in physical force), and is not allowing you to leave I would give him a nice shot of OC in the face, depart and call the police.

If your only tool is a hammer you treat every problem like a nail.
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Old May 27, 2008, 09:03 AM   #4
primlantah
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Your gonna get a lot of answers. This will vary state by state. The advice i have for you would probably be bad advice if your practiced it... maybe not for me though.
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Old May 27, 2008, 09:04 AM   #5
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You learn to apologize and let the moron go on his way with his inflated ego
I think the OP is suggesting that doesn't work.
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Old May 27, 2008, 09:32 AM   #6
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I understand but there is a strong possibility the response he indicated escalated the situation.

Such morons are looking to look good in front of their peers and women. I have experienced this before with a really ticked off biker in traffic who took the time to come to my car window at a red light and give every indication of looking to drag me through it and beat me in the street.

Being "assertive" with such a testosterone driven Neanderthal will not de-escalate the situation. To them it is a challenge, and to be honest it is often presented as one by the victim since eating crow for no "good reason" turns most people off.

I am saying apologize and really make him believe it. Let him know how sorry you are and that you meant nothing. Let him believe you are afraid of him and let it look so for his audience, the reason he often is performing. Anything less with such a moron will escalate the situation.

If that fails and you wind up having to kill the idiot you can honestly attest that you did everything possible to avoid the situation. In my case I did not have to pull the trigger, I never even flashed. I did have the gun in hand and out of sight though and knew exactly when I would use it if the situation went beyond the point of no return. Harley Head went back to his woman and friends looking cool for scaring the college kid and I got to avoid killing someone. Learn to be confident with the fact that acting scared to placate a moron does not mean one really fears the moron.
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Old May 27, 2008, 10:00 AM   #7
Aqeous
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"and would most likely inform him in a calm but assertive voice that I want no trouble."


"Hey I don't want no trouble man . . ." while I'm backing away. What else can be done? If at any point he would stop and continue his threats without approaching then it would be over with. If he keeps coming, then after a fashion you escalate as you reach behind suggesting that you are armed. What else can you do?

Musketeer your Biker quit after you showed your initial submission . . .

"Can of worms time"

Maybe I don't spend enough time one this part of the forum? Is stuff like this covered allot?
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Old May 27, 2008, 10:01 AM   #8
Aqeous
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Just to clarify, I had no pepper spray on me at the time. Nor did I have have a tazer. People who are CCW never really do . . .
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Old May 27, 2008, 10:04 AM   #9
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Chasing him puts you in the position of the aggressor, and provides him with a good argument that he was in fear for his life.

How about option 3? Find cover for you and the pup and wait to see what the subject does. If he comes out with a weapon, deal with the situation appropriately. If he doesn't and just leaves, then deal with the situation appropriately.

The key phrase there is "deal with the situation appropriately." Chasing someone who isn't displaying a weapon and hasn't committed a crime doesn't meet that description.

It's also a bad idea to state openly that a preferred tactic is to draw the potential aggressor in and then chase him to the car where you may "pump him" with rounds if he doesn't do precisely what you think he should in that case.
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Old May 27, 2008, 10:08 AM   #10
Aqeous
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"It's also a bad idea to state openly that a preferred tactic is to draw the potential aggressor in and then chase him to the car where you may "pump him" with rounds if he doesn't do precisely what you think he should in that case."


Hang on fella's before this gets out of hand. I said draw him farther away from his vehicle being that he may also be carrying a weapon inside of it. I did not say draw him in . . .

Quote:

"I think I would draw him closer to me (and farther away from the car) as far as I could"



I also said reaches for anything inside of the vehicle instead of just jumping back in . . .


And by chasing I meant maybe 4 to 5 yards at best . . .
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Last edited by Aqeous; May 27, 2008 at 05:42 PM.
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Old May 27, 2008, 10:13 AM   #11
Aqeous
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Option 3 doesn't work in Florida because there is literally almost no cover beyond the street. To much under brush to cut you up.


Besides, how many roads really have "cover" in close proximity. Even running to the nearest house can take some time?
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Old May 27, 2008, 10:23 AM   #12
buzz_knox
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The key point in taking cover (which should have also included the term concealment) is that you are 1) breaking his line of advance thereby making it harder for him to get to you, 2) demonstrating to him that you don't want to fight, and 3) being able to demonstrate points 1 and 2 to a trier of fact, thereby establishing that you were the victim. Most anything would work to meet this need, including bushes, houses, ditches, etc.

Drawing him in and chasing him down tend to convince triers of fact that you are the aggressor. They are tactics that can be used in a civilian context in the right circumstances, but a street argument isn't one of those circumstances.

As for shooting him if he reaches for anything, that's the furtive movement concept. It applies where someone makes a movement inconsistent with either a stated command or which is consistent only with reaching for a weapon. But in your situation, you are chasing someone back to their vehicle and are planning to shoot him if he doesn't immediately jump in and reaches for anything . . . like the keys to said vehicle you didn't see him put in his pocket. After all, it's hard to get away from the crazy guy with a gun who's chasing you if you can't start the car, and darned if he didn't remember that his keys were in his pocket just before he jumped in.

Is that the most likely scenario? Maybe not. Maybe's he's reaching for a bat (which is a danger to you because you followed him), or maybe he's reaching for a grenade launcher. Who knows? Honestly, you won't be able to tell because you have indicated a plan to fire based on his reaching for something, and not the knowledge of what that something is.
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Old May 27, 2008, 10:33 AM   #13
Aqeous
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"After all, it's hard to get away from the crazy guy with a gun who's chasing you if you."

LOL . . . I guess that would be me.

You know I posted to ask . . . not to tell.


But, being a person who has not yet been involved in such an instance (Fingers crossed that I never will) BUT, on the flip side of that I do have VAST and I mean VAST experience on walking on the side of the road. (literally years of practice since I was in elementary school) I can say that "Running for cover" takes more time then it takes someone else to make it a few paces back to there car and pull out a weapon.


But basically your saying my theoretical technique is to aggressive . . .


Anyone disagree?
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Old May 27, 2008, 10:41 AM   #14
Aqeous
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And if we are going to get into technical specifics here, if we wasn't driving the car in the first place, and his girl friend was still in the drivers seat, then he's not "going for the keys" when he's reaching for the glove box is he?


I respect all opinions but if we are going to be REALLY REALISTIC here the most dangerous witness is his girl friend. God only knows what she might come up with REGARDLESS of how it went down. Take cover or not, manic with a gun chasing her boy friend or not . . . it won't matter.


Her boyfriend will be dead and innocent . . . and she will be the crying girl in the front seat . . .
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Old May 27, 2008, 11:01 AM   #15
Rich Miranda
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Aqeous, my thoughts are that you'll have to wait and see.

I would NOT chase him, or even move quickly toward him. This makes you the aggressor, even though it's probably a normal reaction. In my view, even if you say you feared for your life, this just looks like you were peeved he confronted you.

Let me get it straight: You (feel threatened and) draw. He turns and runs. You fear he's going for a weapon. I'm not sure if I have the wits to actually do this in the same situation, but I think you should: maintain your stance and your aim. Wait until bozo actually chooses one option or the other. If he's running, he'll likely jump in the seat and tell his girlfriend to hit the gas (in other words it will be obvious). If he's going for the weapon, he'll probably give you signs such as leaning and reaching into the car, and not actually going to sit down. If he does try to pull a weapon, you'll still have the advantage as he's facing away from you and is not aiming, etc. As he turns, you shoot. I doubt he's going to throw a Bible at you.

This is what CCW is intended for, immediate danger to life. Of course, I am the Official Armchair Advisor. Take all I say with a grain (or two) of salt.
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Old May 27, 2008, 11:29 AM   #16
Tim Burke
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Just to clarify, I had no pepper spray on me at the time. Nor did I have have a tazer. People who are CCW never really do . . .
Some us do, on the off chance that we meet someone that we don't need to shoot.
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Old May 27, 2008, 11:43 AM   #17
Musketeer
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Just to clarify, I had no pepper spray on me at the time. Nor did I have have a tazer. People who are CCW never really do . . .
That is your choice. I do though, and know others who also do so. There are plenty of situations where lethal force is not warranted yet force is called for. That is where something like OC comes in. If all you have is a gun one could argue your only choice may be an escalation to lethal force. Depending on the jurisdiction that could be a problem.

My biker did not back down immediately. There was plenty of shouting and threatening, enough that I was hoping someone else would be calling 911 but this was 92 and cell phones were not common then. Not once though was I assertive with him. A 5'4" college student does not behave assertively with some deranged 6'+ biker if he wants to de-escalate the situation. If it had escalated I would have used force as appropriate. I had both OC and a gun although I would not have used OC in this instance. Being inside the car with an open window there was plenty of opportunity for the OC to affect me and inhibit my ability to escape harm. Likewise the traffic situation made driving away impossible.
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Old May 27, 2008, 11:45 AM   #18
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In almost any circumstance chasing the criminal is a BAD idea. Distance is your friend and if he is running one way there is no reason you cannot be going the other. If you chase him with a gun in hand to prevent him from escalating the situation you have already done so.
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Old May 27, 2008, 11:49 AM   #19
Aqeous
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theotherTexasRich

That is some darn good armchair advise I like it.
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Old May 27, 2008, 11:51 AM   #20
Aqeous
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Question guys?


I would honestly like to know how you conceal both gun and pepper spray? I haven't figured that part out yet?
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Old May 27, 2008, 11:53 AM   #21
Aqeous
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So maybe instead of chasing . . . getting into a better "shooting possition" would be better. You know a clear line of sight that is not necessarily right on top of him . . .

Makes sense . . .


Got to go to work now . . . by all means keep posting.
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Old May 27, 2008, 12:00 PM   #22
Rich Miranda
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I would honestly like to know how you conceal both gun and pepper spray?
Hmm, I'm not sure I'd bother trying to conceal pepper spray. I have no idea of what the law here in Texas is.
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Old May 27, 2008, 12:07 PM   #23
Musketeer
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IWB holster for the gun and pocket for the OC... Not really that hard. You are not looking to carry a fire extinguisher around, a simple unit like is sold in most gun shops will due.
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Old May 27, 2008, 12:12 PM   #24
Kragax
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Where I live you have the right to use a firearm to defend yourself ONLY if you honestly belive that your life or that of a third party is in jepordy. Even a smqack upside the head doesn't justify the used of deadly force. It is a last resort do or die situation. I would rather get a broken nose than kill someone. Pull a weapon though, tell Jesus I said hello.
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Old May 27, 2008, 12:22 PM   #25
David Armstrong
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Any alternatives?
Yep. When the car stops immediately turn around and start back the way you came. Another option, depending on the neighborhood, is to walk up to the nearest front door and ring and start knocking. If he pursues it gives you a much better defense should there be a problem, might give you a witness, and so on. Definitely not a shooting situation so leave your gun alone.
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