The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 22, 2008, 08:27 AM   #1
Magnum Wheel Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2006
Location: Southern Minnesota
Posts: 8,274
WOW... did I just learn alot about carrying in my state...

why didn't they teach this stuff in the class ???

I have a buddy that just got his permit to carry, ( he took the same "brand" of class I took about a year ago )... he had some questions that never got addressed in the class, & I did some digging

I learned alot about carrying in MN from this website...

http://www.dps.state.mn.us/bca/CJIS/...tocarryapistol

I'd assume that each state has similar sites...

a couple eye openers for me... ( for the state of MN )

1) yes, you can legally carry in the bar ( but not while intoxicated )
2) you can not carry while bow hunting big game, with the exception of hunting bear
3) it is a petty misdemeanor to not notify the local sheriff's office within 30 days of moving
4) Landlords may not restrict the carry or possession of firearms of thier tennents or thier guests
5) you must retake your training course before renewal of your permit, not prior to 90 days before it expires, & at a maximum fee of $75.00 for renewal ( 1st time fee was $100.00 )

& biggest suprise for me

6) Minnesota's "Personal Protction Act" is a permit to carry law, not a conceal carry law, so the pistol does not need to be concealed, but can be concealed

I guess I feel my instructor let our group down by not providing a simple print out of these rules...

have ya'll looked at the specifics of each of your states laws ???
__________________
In life you either make dust or eat dust...
Magnum Wheel Man is offline  
Old May 22, 2008, 09:30 AM   #2
Keltyke
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Posts: 2,933
"I guess I feel my instructor let our group down by not providing a simple print out of these rules...

have ya'll looked at the specifics of each of your states laws ???"

He might also have assumed the class members would take the responsibility to look into the specifics BEFORE signing up for the course. Also, our instructror was only too happy to answer any questions concerning where, when, and how to carry brought up by the students during the classroom training. In SC, a "simple printout" for the firearm and CC regulations would be several pages long. There's no halfway, you either read ALL the rules or you waste your time. Before my wife and I signed up for the CWP course, we had almost memorized the regulations pertaining to the specifics of concealed carry and firearms in general in SC.
Keltyke is offline  
Old May 22, 2008, 04:07 PM   #3
TundraNick923
Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2008
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 16
In SD you can carry openly without a permit. My CCW was only $10 and took about 4 days to be mailed to me. No classes to take either.
TundraNick923 is offline  
Old May 22, 2008, 08:21 PM   #4
kennybs plbg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2004
Location: Hemet, Ca.
Posts: 524
Rule of thumb for all states: if you don't know your rights, you have none.

kenny b
kennybs plbg is offline  
Old May 23, 2008, 06:00 AM   #5
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,433
Quote:
why didn't they teach this stuff in the class ???
Why didn't you do better research? You are asking us why certain facts were not covered and since we weren't in your class, we probably don't know. Are they required to be covered?

In Texas, you get a handbook of all the salient laws and the information in available online. Interestingly, people still complain they were not aware of certain laws because they "weren't covered in class" which may or may not be true, but then come to find out, said folks don't have a handbook (which is part of the packet you get) and never thought to read online. So either you don't remember, it isn't required, or you had subpar instruction.

So, shouldn't you be asking this to MNDPS and not us? If you feel your instruction was below par, then that needs to be addressed to MNDPS.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old May 23, 2008, 08:35 AM   #6
PT111
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2007
Posts: 1,041
It is impossible for any class to cover all the different laws and situations. Add to that what you may feel as important may be insignificant to others. It is you responsibility to know all the laws whether they are covered in the class or not.

This may be part of why some states don't require any training and leave it up to the individual. You might want to ask your instructor about why he didn't cover those items and suggest that in the future be sure to cover them.
PT111 is offline  
Old May 23, 2008, 09:14 AM   #7
snolden
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2006
Location: N. E. AZ
Posts: 268
thank you for taking it upon yourself to learn more.

Please realize that there are millions of people out there who have never read their owner's manual for their vehicle. That same vehicle which is far more deadly than a firearm.

People should all take the responsibility to learn more about everything that affects their safety: firearms, vehicles, chemicals, prescription drugs etc.

BUT THEY DON'T

At least you did some digging. Let your friends and acquaintances know how much info there is out there.

Thanks
snolden is offline  
Old May 23, 2008, 10:32 AM   #8
NavyLT
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2006
Location: Oak Harbor, WA
Posts: 1,719
Washington state - the only requirement to obtain the CCW permit is to apply in person. $55 and up to 90 days later for non-residents and you're done.

and open carry permitted without a license, but you do have to have the license to keep it loaded in the vehicle.
NavyLT is offline  
Old May 23, 2008, 11:42 AM   #9
Spade Cooley
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2007
Posts: 296
In Arkansas you can't carry inside a bar and that is where you need it the most.
Spade Cooley is offline  
Old May 24, 2008, 09:51 AM   #10
Gbro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,056
Thank you for posting this thread Mag Man,
It caused me to spend 2 hours searching for the summary of the original DNR bill for the 2003 law.( I have it printed but the web address doesn't work) The SF 2259 is linked on the BCA website as is the MN Statute 624.714.
The Statute is fragmented all over the books and hard to put together, and SF 2259 is just the stricken portions of the original Bill.
BUT I did find the original bill in its updated form and this is it It starts about 5 pages down at article 2.
https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/...ar=2003&type=0
I then e-mailed the BCA and pleaded with them to link to this document as it explains the law much better.
__________________
Gbro
CGVS
For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18
Gbro is offline  
Old May 24, 2008, 10:10 AM   #11
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 12,528
Quote:
Please realize that there are millions of people out there who have never read their owner's manual for their vehicle
An owners manual for a vehicle is not the same thing as driving laws from the DMV. I seem to remember very well getting drilled heavily in 'drivers ed' about legalities of driving.

I feel CC permit classes should definitely cover various state laws, and not doing so is just laziness on the instructors part.

Quote:
In Arkansas you can't carry inside a bar and that is where you need it the most.
Is it a good idea to be drinking and carrying though?
chris in va is offline  
Old May 24, 2008, 01:08 PM   #12
BrunoNorway
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: Hedmark, Norway
Posts: 369
In Norway you are not allowed to carry anything at all.
AT ALL
__________________

IN HOC SIGNO VINCES
BrunoNorway is offline  
Old May 24, 2008, 01:40 PM   #13
hkg3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1999
Location: Kalifornia, on my way to Arizona
Posts: 1,149
When I took my CCW class for Arizona at Gunsite, we spent H O U R S covering just about every legal facet of carrying in AZ. The class was VERY detailed and thorough.
__________________
"The next time I shoot somebody I could be arrested."
- Lt. Frank Drebin, The Naked Gun
hkg3 is offline  
Old May 24, 2008, 02:48 PM   #14
Gbro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,056
Quote:
I guess I feel my instructor let our group down by not providing a simple print out of these rules..
These are the guidelines we follow in MN.
http://www.bca.state.mn.us/Invest/Do...rFirearms.html

Instructor Certification Requirements

Approved organizations and government entities may grant instructor certificates to individuals who have been certified within the last five (5) years in accordance with the Department of Public Safety’s standards and have received training in a course or courses, that at a minimum contained:

1.

Instruction in the fundamentals of pistol use including mechanical knowledge of handguns, and safe practices in shooting, loading, unloading, clearing firearm malfunctions, safe storage and firearm care;

2.

Successful completion of an actual shooting qualification exercise and the ability to evaluate shooting proficiency and safe weapon skills of students in a practical firearm shooting exercise;

3.

Instruction in the legal aspects of pistol possession, carry, and use, including self-defense and the restrictions on the use of deadly force. This should also include the psychological and physiological effects of a violent threat encounter and simple weapon retention techniques;

4.

Instruction on how to maintain records of students seeking a permit to carry a firearm.

For more information, contact Jeff Luther at jeff.luther@state.mn.us or 651-793-1076.

"Classes are done in many places in 6-8 hours. Some instructors teach more legal aspects, others more safety. I would bet there was information on where to find some of the nessesary information."

Quote:
Sec. 7. Minnesota Statutes 2002, section 624.714, is
amended by adding a subdivision to read:
Subd. 2a. [TRAINING IN THE SAFE USE OF A PISTOL.] (a) An
applicant must present evidence that the applicant received
training in the safe use of a pistol within one year of the date
of an original or renewal application. Training may be
demonstrated by:
(1) employment as a peace officer in the state of Minnesota
within the past year; or
(2) completion of a firearms safety or training course
providing basic training in the safe use of a pistol and
conducted by a certified instructor.
(b) Basic training must include:
(1) instruction in the fundamentals of pistol use;
(2) successful completion of an actual shooting
qualification exercise; and
(3) instruction in the fundamental legal aspects of pistol
possession, carry, and use, including self-defense and the
restrictions on the use of deadly force.
(c) A person qualifies as a certified instructor if the
person is certified as a firearms instructor within the past
five years by:
(1) the bureau of criminal apprehension, training and
development section;
(2) the Minnesota Association of Law Enforcement Firearms
Instructors;
(3) the National Rifle Association;
(4) the American Association of Certified Firearms
Instructors;
(5) the peace officer standards and training board of this
state or a similar agency of another state that certifies
firearms instructors; or
(6) the department of public safety of this state or a
similar agency of another state that certifies firearms
instructors.
(d) A sheriff must accept the training described in this
subdivision as meeting the requirement in subdivision 2,
paragraph (b), for training in the safe use of a pistol. A
sheriff may also accept other satisfactory evidence of training
in the safe use of a pistol.
__________________
Gbro
CGVS
For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

Last edited by Gbro; May 24, 2008 at 02:59 PM. Reason: add Statute
Gbro is offline  
Old May 25, 2008, 09:39 PM   #15
Mike in VA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 16, 1998
Location: Santa FE, NM
Posts: 2,163
No one can 'educate' you, they can only provide you with the opportunity to learn. Every state is different. A lot of the stuff you're complaining about is somewhat subtle and not necessarily in the purview of a 'general' CCW class IMO.

That said, just what did you expect from a $100 class, a law degree? It's your responsibility to learn the firearms laws of your state, because it's you @$$ that will be hung if you get outside them. There's no shortage of sources on the 'net to educate yourself, state websites, NRA, Packing.org, Bloomfieldpress.com, etc.
__________________
M2
The Second Amendment IS homeland defense!
Mike in VA is offline  
Old May 25, 2008, 09:50 PM   #16
wyocarp
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2007
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 169
I disagree with many of you on here I guess. I think CCW classes ought to instruct as to what is legal and what is not. Otherwise, what is the purpose of the class? To teach about firearms? I think we ought to take a shooting or firearms class to learn about those items and take a CCW class to learn about those issues.

As for reading the vehicle's owner's manual, what a waste of time.
wyocarp is offline  
Old May 26, 2008, 10:26 PM   #17
Mike in VA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 16, 1998
Location: Santa FE, NM
Posts: 2,163
I've only taken two CHP classes, VA (8 hrs) & NM (16 hrs). Both were LCD (lowest commom denominator) classes, aimed at first time handgun users who want to obtain a carry permit. They covered basic nomenclature, firearm safety, maintenance, legal requirements and considerations of CCW, and range time. That's a lot to cover in not much time.

This is due to the desire/pressure to keep the permit process 'affordable', but it sure isn't what I'd consider adequate or good public policy, but it is what it is. Most CCW classes meet the minimum state requirements, if you want more, it'll cost more, fact of life (& the best costs a lot more, eh)?

I have since taken additional training, done a lot of reading, and a lot of practicing, and I would urge anyone who considers themself a responsible firearms owner who carries in public to do likewise (choir, forgive me), but it remains incumbent on the individual to educate themselves to whatever degree they feel is appropriate.

We all like to make fun of 'public education' and remind each other how there's a lawyer attached to every round we fire. I don't blame you for feeling that the basic class was inadequate, but having recognized that, the next step is up to you. Sure, training is expensive, but it pales compared to the cost of ignorance. Thus endeth the sermon - JMO, YMMV.
__________________
M2
The Second Amendment IS homeland defense!
Mike in VA is offline  
Old May 26, 2008, 11:17 PM   #18
DougO83
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 1, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 386
It is rather difficult to cover all the laws necessary for any particular state. How many potential holders would be willing to pay the extra fees? Probably only a few.

It is the same as anything else. We did not cover laws for every possible situation for driver's ed, hunter's ed, or anything else. You have to research on your own.

As far as the bar thing, that is my unofficial addition to the NRA's 4 rules. "Guns and booze don't mix"
__________________
"You can all go to hell, I'm going to Texas."
---Colonel David Crockett

Matt 6:33
DougO83 is offline  
Old May 27, 2008, 06:02 AM   #19
Keltyke
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Posts: 2,933
"They covered basic nomenclature, firearm safety, maintenance, legal requirements and considerations of CCW, and range time."

These are the normal basic requirements in most states that issue a CWP.

"Most CCW classes meet the minimum state requirements, if you want more, it'll cost more, fact of life (& the best costs a lot more, eh)?"

That's right, and maybe I have too much faith that the LEO agencies in my state to know what is acceptible.

"Most CCW classes meet the minimum state requirements, if you want more, it'll cost more,"

Any one who is a responsible gun owner/carrier will study the laws in detail and get more training. The CWP process is sorta like taking a Driver Ed course in high school. You learn the basics, it's your responsibility to learn more. Our instructor, a 25-year retired veteran of a local city police force, highly recommended more training and more study of the laws concerning concealed carry.

"but having recognized that, the next step is up to you."

Right! I certainly plan to take a tactical or equivalent course in the near future. I spend anywhere from 100-200 rounds just about weekly at the range with my 3 main carry pieces.
Keltyke is offline  
Old May 27, 2008, 06:49 AM   #20
Magnum Wheel Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2006
Location: Southern Minnesota
Posts: 8,274
thanks for the comments guys...

me... I have my own private rifle & pistol range, & am a collector with what some ( my wife in particular ) would say I have too many guns already... I scored a perfect score on my range qualifying, using my GP-100 ( I would have liked to used one of my snubbies, but they came after the class ) so I'm probably more familiar with "the gun" than most would be ( as would most forum members )... but a printed one page information sheet included with the course, that had websites, such as the basic state FAQ's link I posted ( for the particular state where your course was held ), as well as the other good internet sources available, would have been nice, & IMO, almost necessary to include if the basics were going to be all that was covered...
__________________
In life you either make dust or eat dust...
Magnum Wheel Man is offline  
Old May 27, 2008, 10:30 AM   #21
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,933
Quote:
In Arkansas you can't carry inside a bar and that is where you need it the most.
Quote:
Is it a good idea to be drinking and carrying though?
Two words: designated driver.

Not everyone in a bar is there to get drunk.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old May 27, 2008, 10:59 AM   #22
Magnum Wheel Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2006
Location: Southern Minnesota
Posts: 8,274
I personally play Bar league Texas Holdem... that's about the only reason you'd find me in a bar... since getting "old man diabetes"... I haven't had a drink since...

... there was actually a shooting in one of the bars that had league poker play, that I go to occasionally ( a very rare occurance... the shooting )... so I'm happy to be able to carry in the bar... while I'm not drinking...
__________________
In life you either make dust or eat dust...
Magnum Wheel Man is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 02:23 PM   #23
maestro pistolero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,088
Quote:
Quote:
why didn't they teach this stuff in the class ???
Quote:
Why didn't you do better research? You are asking us why certain facts were not covered and since we weren't in your class, we probably don't know. Are they required to be covered?

Uh, hello. It sounds like he did.
maestro pistolero is offline  
Old June 1, 2008, 10:38 AM   #24
wyocarp
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2007
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 169
Quote:
I've only taken two CHP classes, VA (8 hrs) & NM (16 hrs). Both were LCD (lowest commom denominator) classes, aimed at first time handgun users who want to obtain a carry permit. They covered basic nomenclature, firearm safety, maintenance, legal requirements and considerations of CCW, and range time. That's a lot to cover in not much time.
My point is that maybe a CCW class shouldn't be for a "first time handgun" owner. I'm pretty sure I have no interest in someone who doesn't have any experience with a handgun having a permit to carry one.
wyocarp is offline  
Old June 1, 2008, 05:19 PM   #25
PT111
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2007
Posts: 1,041
Quote:
My point is that maybe a CCW class shouldn't be for a "first time handgun" owner. I'm pretty sure I have no interest in someone who doesn't have any experience with a handgun having a permit to carry one.
No one has responded to this yet.
PT111 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13332 seconds with 7 queries