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Old May 19, 2008, 12:26 PM   #1
MikeGoob
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Would this work in a dangerous situation?

I know this might sound like a typical Hollywood scenario, but say a BG has a gun pointed at you and you're carrying but havent drawn yet: Do you think it would be possible to glance over the persons shoulder (as if someone was there) to distract them to give you a few seconds to draw? Obviously this would work better in a open area not a dead end alley, but if the BG thought someone was witnessing, wouldnt he glance back to see what you're looking at?
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Old May 19, 2008, 02:13 PM   #2
Keltyke
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"Do you think it would be possible to glance over the persons shoulder (as if someone was there) to distract them to give you a few seconds to draw?"

IF you're that good of an actor.
IF the perp turns far enough for long enough (how fast can you draw and shoot?)
IF you manage to draw, cock, and shoot cleanly. Nothing gets hung up on your clothing or you miss hitting the safety, etc.

Lots of "IFs" there and you only got one chance.

Yea, we've all seen the stories that say it's possible to draw and shoot before the other guy can react. I'd hate to stake my life on proving it.
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Old May 19, 2008, 02:24 PM   #3
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Um . . . No.
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Old May 19, 2008, 04:47 PM   #4
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Any type of distraction may work in your favor. It may allow you to seize the initiative. Anything is better than nothing so look for an opportunity and then seize it full force. But train your mind and body first to deal with the scenario before it happens. If a bad guy forces you into a hidden location, tells you to follow his instructions and you won't get hurt and then orders you into a prone position, there is a great chance you will be executed. This scene has played out over and over again in history. This is the moment you have no choice but to fight, run or do anything but just lie down to be slaughtered.
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Old May 19, 2008, 05:03 PM   #5
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Assuming you and the BG are within reach, like the gun is almost touching your head, this is where some basic self defense classes would be helpful. Learning how to disarm people and proper ways to grab a gun or arm/wrist would buy you more time than trying to divert his/her attention long enough for you to draw and fire accurately. Sure, people can train and with practice get a draw and multiple shots on target in under a second, but thats at an accademy and not in a life or death sitution with the adrenaline rushing and your mind racing. Just a thought. I am going to look into some basic self defense classes like these for myself. You can never be too prepared!
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Old May 19, 2008, 06:06 PM   #6
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There doesn't seem to be much of a downside to trying to distract the BG, so it probably makes sense to try it. I would probably look over the BG's shoulder, raise my eyebrows and nod my head "yes" -- I think it would be way more likely that the BG turns around at that point.

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Old May 19, 2008, 06:41 PM   #7
BillCA
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If you think he's going to shoot you, you have nothing to lose by trying it. Glance past him, let your eyes widen just a touch and lift the eyebrows like you're trying to hide your surprise. Start to comply and then look past him again, opening your eyes wide in surprise. At the first sign of him moving, step to the side, draw and fire repeatedly.

If his weapon is well within your reach, you can avoid the theatrics and try slapping the gun aside as you step away drawing to fire.

Again, these are measures of last resort.
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Old May 19, 2008, 11:52 PM   #8
EastSideRich
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I've actually thought about the same situation.
The best I have come up with is saying in your best "what, are you stupid??" voice:

"Dude - There's a f'ing cop right there."
while looking over his shoulder down the block.

Then if you can draw and fire smooth enough, he shouldn't even hear the shot you place in his ear.

I would think if you were going to rob or murder someone, the possibility of an officer nearby would automatically make you turn to look.

Who knows if you'd have the presence of mind to pull it off, but with a gun pointed at you, you can be pretty certain you won't be able to draw and shoot before he can pull the trigger.

I myself don't think I'd try to grab or control his weapon if he was looking at me unless I had ABSOLUTELY no other option.
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Old May 23, 2008, 06:26 PM   #9
MLeake
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Response to BillCA

Physical contact may be the necessary tactic, at that point, but remember that away isn't the only direction, and may or may not be the best direction. Deflecting his gun hand to inside or outside also allows the opportunity to move IN, if you can pull it off.

Years of training in aikido mean my first reflex is to move in on an attack, and get inside and to the rear/flank. It really messes with an attacker's head when you close the gap, with melee weapons or open hand. I'd imagine it could upset their game plan if a gun were involved, too.

Of course, it helps if one practices drawing while moving.
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Old May 23, 2008, 06:47 PM   #10
Erik
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Another qualified maybe. But given the scenario, a maybe may be all you have going for you.
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Old May 23, 2008, 07:32 PM   #11
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I know this might sound like a typical Hollywood scenario,
I really think you answered your own question in your first sentence. It could work but I suspect the odds are way against it. You would have a better chance of him just letting you go if you do nothing but what he says.
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Old May 23, 2008, 10:45 PM   #12
milemission
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Best idea is to give him what he wants and hope he doesn't shoot. The only way drawing might be a good idea is if he's likely to shoot you, or you can draw and shoot your handgun from a concealed holster in about a quarter second or faster. Even then, he might manage to get a shot off before the hit registers in his brain.

If you think he wants to do you harm, any manner of distracting BG to pull your gun is probably a good idea. If he just wants your money, give it to him and hope he's satisfied with it.
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Old May 23, 2008, 11:01 PM   #13
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It is possible to draw and fire before a BG can pull the trigger. However, assuming that you are an every day common guy and not a FBI agent, I thing you would be dead meat
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Old May 24, 2008, 12:12 AM   #14
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The best thing to do is stay aware of your situation.

Other than that, most BG's aren't shootists and will probably miss more often than hit. I'm old enough to feign a heart attack which would likely save me. I've also had a real one so I know the procedure. I would also draw on the way down just in case.

I've thought the scenario through many times. Clutch the chest, turn your back and draw as you go down.................the rest are all immediate decisions given circumstances.

Young guys can have heart attacks too. Just have to be a good actor.
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Old May 24, 2008, 01:25 AM   #15
Rich Miranda
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As a victim of a carjacking and kidnapping 15 years ago, I can tell you that, when the gun is pointed at you point blank, you should NOT try to draw and fire. You will die. The only exception to this is if you feel that you are already about to be killed, and you have nothing to lose anyway. Even then, try to get the BG's gun pointed elsewhere before you try it.

The better way is to play it cool and not reveal that you have a CCW.

I had a .25 put to my cheek. I mean cold steel to flesh. Now you can argue all you want about how anything less than such-and-such caliber is useless, but wait until you have that .25 to your cheek. All of a sudden your perspective changes.

I was getting into my car when said gun was put to my cheek. He was to my left and slightly behind me. He said "Get in the back seat" and I did. As I was climbing over the seat he gave the gun to his buddy, who walked around the car and sat next to me in the back seat. BG #1 then started the car and began driving away. They robbed me of every item they could take, then left me out in the middle of nowhere. Alive, thanks to the grace and mercy of the Lord.

Now, let me explain. I was only 18 and lived in California. This alone made me an automatic victim (no CCW allowed). So, I had no gun anyway. But if I did things would have likely been different:

Assuming I was carrying a CCW, and tried to draw and shoot, I'd be dead. Or have real bad facial injuries. He was in a power position, just like a cop when they pull you over. I would have been better off waiting for just a minute. When he told me to get in the back seat he gave the gun to his buddy, who was outside of the car and going around. I could have drawn my gun then, waited until BG #2 got in the back seat, and put one round right in his head. Then, with BG #1 sitting in front of me, weaponless, put one in his head from behind. Game over. I win.

Now for those of you who will say, it's illegal to shoot an unarmed man, I agree. But I've gone over this scenario in my head quite a few times and I always shoot him. How do I know he is unarmed? What's to stop him from pulling out pistol #2 and shooting me? Either way, better to be judged by 12, yada yada yada.

Every situation is different. If you feel that your life is in immediate danger, draw and shoot. But sometimes it's better to play it cool. Use your hidden CCW to your advantage.

Finally, I'm always saddened to see people get killed without putting up any defense whatsoever. If the BG has a gun to you and is showing signs he's about to kill you, by all means fight tooth and nail to stop him. You are never completely unarmed. Kick, punch, scratch, spit. Anything to disorient him. You might still win.
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Old May 24, 2008, 04:09 AM   #16
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The famous Sheriff Jim Wilson was called to testify in an alleged homicide case. To make his point, he had a bailiff unload his weapon and come point it directly at the sheriff. The sheriff, with his weapon unloaded and sitting on the stand told the baliff to "fire" when he made a move for his gun. The sheriff drew and clicked an empty chamber before the baliff could do anything.

Two things can be learned from this. 1. If you are fast enough, nobody can get the drop on you. 2. Most cops can't shoot for scat. (I personally think this is funny)

Even though it was a movie, John Wayne had good advice in "The Shootist", when he told Richie Cunnigham,"most men will hesitate, I won't."
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Old May 24, 2008, 06:28 PM   #17
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Somehow, I think that the guys who claim they would draw and fire before the BG could pull the trigger, or who could fake him, would be a little less sure of themselves if they really were facing a gun. I think they would be saying "Yes, sir, sir, what do you want, sir?" if they were not too scared to even talk.

Jim (who does not claim that he would be any better)

P.S. Real BGs don't stand around pointing a gun, exchanging witticisms, and waiting for you to fool them, practice your fast draw, or demonstrate your unarmed combat techniques. They take John Wayne's advice and just shoot you.

JK
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Old May 24, 2008, 07:44 PM   #18
PT111
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Quote:
P.S. Real BGs don't stand around pointing a gun, exchanging witticisms, and waiting for you to fool them, practice your fast draw, or demonstrate your unarmed combat techniques. They take John Wayne's advice and just shoot you.
Most just want to get their loot and get out of their without any problems or anyone causing any problems. Only when someone tries to be a hero do people get hurt. But there always is the case of the crazy rhat is planning to kill someone and then it isn't going to matter what you do so you might as well try and be the hero. It seems that usually when people get killed in robberies there is more than one robber involved so look out for that. If it's just one drug crazed idiot he usually want enough for another drug buy and no trouble.
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Old May 24, 2008, 08:12 PM   #19
mjoy64
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My theoretical experience is...

and you can take it FWIW.

My theoretical experience says the guy that has made the decision to shoot first is more likely faster, no matter if that person is the guy that the other guy has the drop on.

I attended a two day pistol course and participated in a drill with the instructor (using airsoft pistols). I had the drop on him. The demonstration had some rules. If I pulled the trigger and he did not pull his gun, I lost... otherwise whoever got their shot off first was the winner. In a half a dozen attempts I lost each and every time.

Could this be attributed to skill... possibly. However, my instructor indicated that the results were common. The person reacting to the other person is behind the curve if they are reacting to the other person.

I would no more advocate one decision in this scenario over another. I do think the exercise was illuminating that it is not so cut and dried that the person with the drop on the another person has a significant advantage.

Since I've never had this happen, I can only speak theoretically. If I did not think it likely that the guy was going to shoot me, I'd probably just give him what he wanted. Otherwise, I would draw and shoot, doing my best to get his decision making process behind the curve and reacting to me. This could involve distraction, movement, whatever.
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Old May 25, 2008, 12:17 AM   #20
chrisandclauida2
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if your smart you would take that chance to create distance and find cover. after all distance and cover would be a better first choice tactically speaking.

besides you would probably end up shooting your foot the ground by your foot and then the ground again as you attempt to draw and engage in that situation.

im not putting you down as 75 percent of us would do the same thing as its a rather common occurrence when in this situation where you have to quickly draw and engage as fast as you can. you finger receives to pull the trigger signal faster than your arm can receive and act on the draw and point signal.

i think you idea is a bit too much Hollywood but if it works then your lucky. its better to try then stand there and **** your self.
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Old May 26, 2008, 09:34 AM   #21
BillCA
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Best idea is to give him what he wants and hope he doesn't shoot.
First... Hope is not a strategy.
Second, what if "what he wants" is my life? I may get no warning or too little to make a difference.

Quote:
Most just want to get their loot and get out of their without any problems or anyone causing any problems.
I tend to agree, but how does one tell whether the subject robbing you is going to just walk away or shoot you? By the nature of his act -- threatening to do serious violence to your body with a gun, knife, beer bottle, etc., he has indicated his willingness to put your life in jeopardy. There is no way to really tell if a thug has decided you are beneath contempt and he can kill you for sport.

I recall one of those on-line videos of a liquor store hold-up where the perp got his money, then a couple of cartons of cigarettes, gathered up his loot and suddenly shot the clerk several times before calmly walking out the door. Cold.

Trying to out-draw someone at gun-point is a measure of last resort. But relying on their charity, kindness or mercy is foolhardy, IMO.
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Old May 26, 2008, 11:01 AM   #22
Glenn E. Meyer
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Seen it work and not work in training (not real life - thank you). One hint was to draw when the BG was talking - that distracts them. If they are focused on you, then you probably get shot.

IF you manage to draw, cock, and shoot cleanly.

Cock? Is this the famous unchambered carry question? Or Wyatt Earp?
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Old May 26, 2008, 11:10 AM   #23
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Questions like these crack me up...
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Old May 26, 2008, 12:24 PM   #24
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theotherTexasRich- glad you made it out, man. I have to assume the moment it becomes a kidnapping, that is the time to get it on, they want you someplace isolated to dispose of you. I think you would have been right, in your what if replay, to drop a couple in both at the first stopsign out of town, guy to your left first. Why leave it to chance, when to anyone it appears to anyone you were about to be murdered.

I was accosted while unarmed, first offered crack, then these two guys demanded my wallet, returned it at finding it almost empty. Turns out in the end they escorted me to safer streets for a toll of 2 cigarettes, all the while one played mind games to the effect I thought I was sure I'd be killed, and was working out what to do and when. I was counting on a jumping at the least, but nothing I hadn't survived more than once. I was told I was alive because I looked like a cop. That position, without a peice, really somehow dampens your confidence to react. Looking back would have just been a half hearted attempt to not die cowering on my knees. Really bothers me, even though letting it play out it ended well.
When we first crossed paths, the one said 'Bust up, what's poppin''. Just found out what that meant a couple months ago, gave me the chills. This street about 3 months before had 5 murders, (5 shootings-1 wounding, 1 stabbing death) in one week. Dunno why I put myself in that position, having to walk thru the hood vs. risking a DUI or calling a cab. Never do that again.
That experience re-dedicated me to a survival mindset (and not doing stupid stuff that could get me killed).
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Old May 27, 2008, 05:52 PM   #25
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Might work. Ya never know. My mother knows someone who had someone draw a gun on her in a parking garage and ask her to get in a car. She didn't miss a beat and said "oh, I can't go, I have an appointment," and simply walked away, just dumbfounding the guy. I'd have never thought that would work if you had asked me, but it did.
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