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Old May 20, 2008, 12:47 AM   #26
Socrates
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Goetz statments are a pretty good argument for diminished mental capacity...
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Old May 20, 2008, 01:44 AM   #27
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There is a lot to be learned from this incident and that’s why I posted the thread.

One thing that I took away from it was Goetz’s statements to the police. The statements he made to the police made him look very bad. However, we have to look at this realistically.

It has been my experience that police officers use pressure tactics to coerce statements from the tax paying citizenry. On a traffic stop, for example, they shine bright flashlights in your face, use aggressive sarcastic tones and their hands are always on their pistols. When an officer questions someone in an interigation room its not that much different. Every police station has a little windowless room with a bright light overhead. They usually have the suspect wait in this little windowless room for hours and then an aggressively sounding foul mouthed detective comes in to question you. Sometimes they turn the heat up in the little room or make it extra cold. They do whatever they can to make it uncomfortable for you.

So were Goetz’s statements to the police unusual? I would have to say no. I would believe that the police probably used coercive interrogation tactics. They probably sat him in an uncomfortable chair in a small hot windowless room for hours handcuffed and with an aggressive fast talking detective and bright lights overhead. Under the circumstances, he was probably very nervous and just babbled on and on not really knowing exactly what he was saying.

Another thing I have learned about police is that they have selective hearing. They will hear one thing that you say and note it down, but other things that you say are not noted down or considered.

The one golden rule about police is that they cannot be trusted under any circumstances. When they are around, you never say a word to them. If they ask questions, then you kindly state that you would like to exercise your right of silence. They will probably attempt to use coercive tactics with flashlights and aggressive tones. This is to be expected.

Whenever you use your weapon, then the prosecutor and police will find anyway they can to charge you with a crime no matter what the circumstances might be. That’s disappointing considering that there are stipulations in the U.S. Constitution stating of the right to bear arms and protect one’s self. My opinion is that the government has selective reading when it comes to that document where they will follow one part of the Constitution, but side-step other parts.

Knowing that the police and prosecutor would probably place you in jail for some type of charge, would you have turned yourself in if there was a good chance you could get away?

There are 2 million Americans imprisoned by the government with many who were wrongfully placed behind bars and DNA evidence being used to release them everyday. If I shot 4 men in self-defense, then I would surely not turn myself in and become another byproduct of a system and join the hundreds of thousands of victims of the US criminal justice system. Would I receive a fair trial? No I wouldn’t. In fact, I believe that if I were in Russia or Iraq, then my actions would be understood and no trial would occur, but in the US you get jailed and probably convicted for defending yourself. That’s how it works here.
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Old May 20, 2008, 02:13 AM   #28
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One thing that one certainly gets from Geotz, and the appellate court:
"No comment"
is VERY hard to change into racial slurs, false statements, etc. A good attorney would never have allowed him to say one word to anyone on the issue, for the rest of his life. In fact, if he hadn't shot off his mouth, the first grand jury would have stood...

You notice the appellate 'facts' don't list the reasoning behind throwing some of the charges out, that in fact, the 'boys' had, once finger printed, been tied to rapes and robberies...

It is REALLY clear that a facist-liberal view of the event can clearly turn the facts of the case on their head, ignoring facts, and exculpatory evidence, and making the case in the way they want it made. It's also quite clear the court was pandering to racial pressure...

When was Rodney King?

Last edited by Socrates; May 20, 2008 at 02:56 AM.
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Old May 20, 2008, 07:51 AM   #29
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If you read Goetz's confession he was intent on shooting and an obvious murderous wackjob who should be in prison next to the scum he shot.
Goetz fabricated quite a bit of what he claimed motivated him after the fact. He wasn't the most stable of individuals, so when the police declared the shooter to be a mad animal, he took that to heart.

There are lessons to be learned, including not running and keeping one's mouth shut. If he'd done those two things, Goetz might have been a textbook case for the necessity defense to a charge of illegally carrying a weapon.
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Old May 20, 2008, 08:58 AM   #30
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It has been my experience that police officers use pressure tactics to coerce statements from the tax paying citizenry. On a traffic stop, for example, they shine bright flashlights in your face, use aggressive sarcastic tones and their hands are always on their pistols. When an officer questions someone in an interigation room its not that much different. Every police station has a little windowless room with a bright light overhead.
Sounds like you're a man of experience. I guess you've been in that room a time or two.

Although I agree you should talk to a lawyer before you speak to police, negative blanket statements about all police amount to whining and usually reflect somone with a personal bone to pick.
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Old May 20, 2008, 09:49 AM   #31
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"They moved to block him from escape and according to witnesses were aggressive and threatening.............in this scenario I'm forced to draw and fire."

And you might be looking at murder charges, too. In SC, you can NOT draw and fire to stop simple assault. You MUST be in fear of your life, another's life, or GRAVE bodily injury. Since the youths were showing no weapons, Goetz can not say that.

Whether the shooting was legal or not has been determined in the courts. Whether Goetz went "hunting" will never be known, unless he talks truthfully.
Whether he rid the community of some pond scum is not arguable.
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Old May 20, 2008, 10:10 AM   #32
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Since the youths were showing no weapons, Goetz can not say that.
The concept of disparity of force allows a person faced with multiple assailants to argue there was a legitimate threat, even if no weapon was visible.

Besides, Goetz knew that there was at least one firearm in the mix, namely the one he was carrying. Assailants with no visible weapons can reasonably be anticipated to be intending to physically assault you, and that can easily lead to discovery of the weapon.
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Old May 20, 2008, 10:32 AM   #33
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And you might be looking at murder charges, too.
Perhaps. However I don't base my self preservation on what I might face criminally or civilly. If I am in fear of death or serious bodily injury I will defend myself. IYO what is the difference between aggressive panhandling and robbery? How many attackers are needed for you to be at risk of great bodily injury? How could you retreat from the danger?

IMO they are attempting a strong armed robbery with the threat of what amounts to potential great bodily injury or death and I have no way to escape. Thus I have no choice but to comply or defend myself. Since I have no delusions of being able to beat 2 men at a time much less 4 men, I will be beaten down (great bodily injury).

Goetz was correct in his assumption that they were going to rob him as one of the yoots said that they planned to rob him. Lets not forget the signal they gave each other before they blocked his escape. That alone tends to support what Goetz feared.
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Old May 20, 2008, 11:22 AM   #34
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It's amazing how many tough guys there are in the world who would fault Goetz for being in fear of his life in that situation.

The standard is, was he in fear of his life. In a given circumstance, that is going to be different for a 90lb., 75yr old woman vs. George Foreman.

Although it is illegal, I can't fault him for his trying a "coup 'de grace" on the one scumbag. If the roles were reversed, how much mercy would they have given him? IMO, when the shooting starts, all bets are off. Sort of like when Paul Newman wants to get the rules straight for the knife fight. "Rules? In a knife fight?" Gimme a break.
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Old May 20, 2008, 12:39 PM   #35
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"43 million dollar civil suit"
Screw that. Time to move to mexico and start over.
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Old May 20, 2008, 02:09 PM   #36
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It's amazing how many tough guys there are in the world who would fault Goetz for being in fear of his life in that situation.
Classic, I don't know if its tough guy syndrome or just a lack of understanding as to what 4 adult males can do and how fast they can do it. Folks see a bruce lee flick and think that their green belt should allow them to fight off 3 or 4 guys no problem. Even highly trained fighters would have their hands full with more than 1 adult male in a confined space.

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I can't fault him for his trying a "coup 'de grace" on the one scumbag
This is a joke I hope.
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Old May 20, 2008, 05:42 PM   #37
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The REAL problem with this case was the Goetz running off at the mouth, and filing appellate briefs, in retrospect, were a serious mistake. It often happens that a lower court will give the person a wrist slap sentence. When appealed, the case comes back, and, the sentencing is ordered to comply with the guidelines in law, that the sentencing judge may have ignored, figuring the case would not ever go to the appellate court.

When the appellate court sends it back, it CHANGES the ruling on reasonable belief that your life is in danger. Prior, it was totally based, real or not, on the belief of the person being attacked. With the Goetz case, they add an
'objective', after the fact component. In other words, the court gives itself the right to throw the defense out, if, while sitting in their comfy chambers, the judge, or judges feel the victim over-reacted.

I've been in a similar spot, cornered by 3 huge, and I mean 6 3 and above, 250 pounds and above black men, in a bathroom, by myself. Simply coke and alcohol, making them want to beat up the white guy, since they think he's a friend of the manager that just threw them out of the bowling alley. I survived, with about 15 stiches, from getting hit over the head with a Walther PPKS. My martial arts training saved me. Wonder how many others here would have simply been dead or beaten to a pulp in the bathroom? I REALLY don't like the Monday morning quarterback stuff, since you have to make a decision based on the initial event, being cornered, and how you are going to deal with it. That choice is instantly changed when the guy whips open the coat, and you see the gun. It happens in under a second...

Goetz made his decision, based on prior experience, and, from subsequent testimony, he was right: the guys intended to rob him, and rob has a component of physical violence. 4-5 on one can maim and kill you, if the guys know what they are doing, very quickly...
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Old May 20, 2008, 05:59 PM   #38
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I agree with Socrates:

I think that the $5 dollar request can be called "the interview" and this is where the thugs size you up and distract you to see what they are against. It is also an intimidation tactic and a "set up", especially in this scenario as there were lots of them against one. Once Goetz produced his wallet they would have assaulted him with a boot party and stolen the wallet, or perhaps,if they were especially sadistic, with a truly life threatening stomping. If Goetz said, "sorry I don't have $5 dollars" then that would have given the opportunity for the thugs to get feelings of "indignation" and establish the grounds for the assault that was coming.

I also think that when 4 or 5 guys coalesce around you in an obviously threatening manner, and this was Goetz's call based on his experiences and on being there in person, one can become extremely fearful for one's safety, and perhaps even life. Disparity of force issues should definitely be considered here.

Ultimately it is hard to second guess whether or not Goetz did the right thing or not. He was there and he chose his course of action based on the cards that he was dealt. Now perhaps Goetz should have waited for the assault to begin in earnest before drawing the gun to shoot, but on the other hand then he'd be one strike away from being knocked out and then at the complete mercy of the thugs. They could just have easily then stomped him on his way to death.

I'm not sure what the "perfect" way to have handled that situation would have been. Maybe brandishing would have made the scatter, but then again, maybe not, and in close quarters against multiple assailants at arms reach, he could just as easily been disarmed (mall ninjas please refrain from telling me how you would have done the double secret weapon retention move at this point).

So, given those circumstances it seems to me that it is reasonable that Goetz, if afraid of being seriously maimed and once he made the commitment to shoot to defend himself, once he drew the gun, might have felt that, tactically, there was no other choice but to shoot.

But obviously he really complicated matters by issuing his terribly misjudged comments after the shooting.

p.s. here's an interesting site about the dynamics of violent crime
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html (click on the individual 5 stages of violent crime for some interesting reading)
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Old May 20, 2008, 06:02 PM   #39
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Would you try to place two bullets on each target or one bullet on each target?
This question gets asked on these boards all the time. And people often offer definitive answers. I say it isn't a "black & white" issue.

If your follow-up shots require two or three second, yeah - give every target one shot before transitioning to other threats.

But if your splits (shot-to-shot times) are more like .17-.18 seconds, you may well be better off getting a second (or third) bullet into each threat before turning your attention to the next one.
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Old May 20, 2008, 07:16 PM   #40
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Seems the .38 worked just fine in this situation...

Very fast shooting, and, adequate penetration...
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Old May 20, 2008, 08:29 PM   #41
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I am a native New Yorker, & I didn't need to read the whole thread.

You can not run away on a moving subway train, even being carefull
subways in the 80's were very dangerous.
Those thugs were out for blood, at that time young black men simply mugged white people for sport. For entertainment.
I hung out with a mostly black and Latino "crew" @ the time, one time a black guy in his thirties had a beef with one of us and all 10 guys I was having a beer with jumped him, I almost got jumped because I didn't join in!
They didn't "fight fair" they pummeled the guy into unconcisious for enjoyment.
They went overboard and didn't stop until the guy was knocked out, with teeth missing and probably broken bones.
They laughed about it for weeks!

"You got 5 dollars?" depending on how you say it, it can be very threatening, it was absolutely a set up, surround the guy and no matter what he says or does co operates or not , he gets stomped.
It was called "vicking" not mugging by the guys that did it all the time (from victim )

Goetz was doing what every newyorker, black or white wanted to do to the thugs roaming the streets and subways in those days.

As for plugging the thug after the threat stopped, thats the law of the urban jungle, what goes around comes around.
If you live by the sword and all that, Goetz had enough, if you're constantly beat down and NEVER GET ANY JUSTICE from the "system" you might just snap.

I really enjoyed the lull in harrasment when Goetz was on the run, you could ride the damm train without getting mugged and beaten up on.
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Old May 20, 2008, 08:52 PM   #42
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THRGUNSMITH:

Now you see why the court ruling, which allows Monday morning quarterbacking on such situations is so dangerous.

We have posters here that can't remember, or conceive of places or situations like that. Think of how hard it's going to be for a judge, or prosecutor, that never faces those situations, living in their high income, ivory towers.

Are New York Appellate judges in for life? From reading their opinion, it's really clear they had no idea what goes on in the subways at that time...
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Old May 21, 2008, 12:24 PM   #43
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thrgunsmith & Socrates:

I am a native New Yorker as well, and ANYONE who criticizes Bernie for his actions has absolutely NO IDEA of what it was like back then, or even today for that matter. You are sheltered beyond belief, and have no clue of how lucky you are to not know what life is like when you face animals like those "kids" day in & day out.

These were not innocent kids, just having a fun time & nicely & politely asking for handouts.

These were not normal high school students, just out for a stroll and accidentally running into a mad man at the wrong place and at the wrong time.

These were vicious, ruthless, criminal thugs, out for blood and mayhem, period.

I saw part of his interview, and he said it exactly as it was: "When they asked me for the $5, I looked in their eyes and I knew exactly what their intentions were."

Believe me, I have been faced with this exact scenario a few times myself, both on the bus and on the subway, and things are 100,000 times better today than it was back then. Each time I was lucky when I fought back (I consider a bruise on the back of my head from a punch and shaken nerves for a few weeks to be lucky compared to getting stabbed). And believe me, not a juror in the world would have convicted me if they had been in my shoes and I had had a gun & shot them.

One of the times, I was 14, surrounded by about 20 animals like these on a city bus, when one tapped me on the shoulder and told me to give him my leather coat. Another one blocked the exit door, another one stuck his hand in my right pants pocket (my money was in my left, hahaha), and another punched the back of my head.

If I had a gun, I would have shot them, no doubt, for I was in fear for my life. I still don't know to this day how I scared them enough (or made them respect me enough) for the one blocking the door to move out of the way, and for the first one I mentioned to let go of my coat tails as I exited and growled "GET THE F*CK OFF MY COAT!!!" because he was grabbing it and trying to pull me back onto the bus, or at least to keep my coat..

This was in the days of Koch as Mayor, when NYC was a cesspool of filth and violence and robberies and muggings and all kinds of indescribable acts against law abiding innocent victims. Hookers on every corner, pornshops as far as the eye can see, day in and day out unending predation on the innocent. Most of you have probably never even seen what the subways looked like back then...inside & out was one giant graffiti covered outhouse. It was the territory of the animals, and they ran it with impunity. It was so bad that the Guardian Angels were formed to try to do something to potect people.

Bernie knew very well what these animals were planning on doing, and thanks to him at least one of these turds won't ever hurt anyone again. In fact, subway crime went down immensely after this shooting, so he is a hero to many.

Years later, one of these thugs was re-arrested for something. They were predators, plain & simple. Before, during & after that day.
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Old May 21, 2008, 04:51 PM   #44
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scrap

Thank you for articulating what I was trying to convey, its one of the reasons I won't return to NYC until we win back the 2nd Amendment.
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Old May 21, 2008, 05:10 PM   #45
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Actually I deal in situations like that way more then I would like. My job as a bball ref takes me into some places I shouldn't go, and, Oakland and Richmond are a couple of murder capitols of the world. I also teach in any area with a huge transplanted thug population. Today I was going to the office, and, on my way out a Mexican kid said something very much like what we are talking about:

"He asked me....and before I could answer, his friend punched me."

Blood was all over, streaming down his face from a very bad bloody nose. He was lucky.

BART is used by the Oakland drug dealers to go into San Francisco area and peddle, since you have a better then even chance with a jury of being acquitted on ANY charge.

Have one friend's mother that was attacked by a guy using a knife. The guy got a directional cane of pepper spray in the face, and was picked up by the BART police.

Whatever. Goetz was right, but should have been quiet about it...
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Old May 21, 2008, 05:35 PM   #46
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The biggest problem with these debates is not with the shooters, but with us, and our perspective.

I'm at home right now. My wife is cooking dinner. The mutts are at my feet. I have a verylight work load for tonight. Ahhh, life is good.

How can my opinion possibly take into account the abject fear, terror, the law, being shredded by the press, jail time, etc,...

I'm at home, warm and safe.

My guess is that most of you are in the same position. However, if I surrounded you with four guys I ride with, and they taunted you, and convinced you that injury was eminent I'll bet some of you would make Goetz look like a choir boy.

An equal number of you would run like a little girl.

Mr. Goetz's actions derive from a singular event when he was in a singular state of mind. Insane or not, it is my belief, from my safe home, that he got hosed.
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Old May 21, 2008, 05:40 PM   #47
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Yep, if you haven't experienced it first hand, to know what it is like to always know that at any given moment, 24 hours of every day, that you can be assaulted, robbed, stabbed, raped, etc. etc. then you have no right to judge him; you are not his peers.

Live with that REAL fear every minute of every day, wondering if every time you leave your house, you may not come back in one piece, and not just because you heard a story here & there, but because you witness it day in & day out, have close friends & family members go thru it, see the animals all around you on every street you walk on.

Truly, truly walking thru the valley of the shadow of death. Not in your paranoid mind, but in reality.

Spend every moment of your life like that, learn firsthand exactly how they operate, see it starting to happen to you, wonder with good reason if you are going to die in a moment, and then tell me you would not shoot every last one of those bastards.

That was his reality.
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Old May 21, 2008, 05:51 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Scrap5000
That was his reality
There's that word again, "reality."

I've been scared so bad at times I'm lucky I could hold onto my bowels. I've been so mad at other times that I really saw red, like the room was bathed in red neon. I cannot switch it on or off. It's just fight or flight.

The mind is an odd thing. As I told Playboy, I shut the computer off this afternoon. I was a bit miffed. About twenty minutes later I was going axle to axle with crowded Interstate traffic, mirrors within inches of my elbows--and I exhaled in total relaxation.

How come a man seethes at a computer screen and calms down amid spinning Kenworth wheels?

I hope I never have to face the scenario that Mr. Goetz faced--either way. If I ran like a little girl, I would disgrace myself. If I stood my ground I'd be in court--both criminal and civil--for months on end, and well into bankruptcy. If I screamed an epithet in anger I would be branded a racist forever.

Nobody should have to face that.
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Old May 21, 2008, 06:16 PM   #49
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yeah I remember reading about the terror on the streets of New York caused by all of those low life criminals..and to make it against the law for good people to have a weapon to defend oneself, especially in that type of environment, is akin to a human rights abuse
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Old May 21, 2008, 09:17 PM   #50
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One more time: words by a bad guy, in the act of committing a crime are worthless.
On the contrary, words by a badguy in the act of committing a crime are usually quite indicative of what he wants/expects. And Goetz would have lost nothing in the overall context of the event if he had given them the $5 (other than $5).
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wait, it just dawned on me, you don't know what wonderful folks these guys were. Here, from the same Wikpedia article:
First, Wiki is far from a reliable source on lots of stuff, but even given the Wiki, perhaps I missed it. Had they stabbed, shot, beaten or such any other victims of their robberies??? Or perhaps there was a nice long history of successful actions just like they did with Goetz? Let's face, asking for $5 is more typical of the minor panhandling gig than a violent attack.
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As soon as they acosted Goetz, prints go into the system, and, they start matching up for unsolved robberies and rapes...
So what you seem to be suggesting is that these guys had some strong incentive NOT to push an attack on somebody, given all the witnesses on the scene that could ID them.

Look, the badguys were badguys, but given Goetz’s own actions and statements he wasn’t much of a good guy either.
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