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Old May 18, 2008, 10:56 AM   #1
timothy75
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44mag VS 45acp

The 44mag is best know as a hunting round but from a purley hypothetical and scholastic point of view do you think a good 45acp bullet Gold dot/TAP/DPX would stop a human antagonist better than an equaly well designed 44mag if recoil and rate of fire were not an issue? Thanks
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Old May 18, 2008, 11:01 AM   #2
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Need to compare 44MAG to 45Colt,
Compare 44 Special to 45ACP maybe.

JMO
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Old May 18, 2008, 01:38 PM   #3
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Well both will stop a human, in fact some of the smaller rounds will do the trick as well. I think you should re phrase your question to ask opinion on something else.

I say this becuase comparing 44 Mag to a 45 is just very very strange to say the least. 44 Mag is a monster compared to 45.
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Old May 18, 2008, 02:02 PM   #4
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Given PROPER SHOT PLACEMENT, a .22 will stop a human.
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Old May 18, 2008, 03:18 PM   #5
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Lets say a 12gauge slug would stop a person faster than a 45acp, would a 44mag also stop a person faster than a 45acp then? What I'm asking is does a 45acp have an advantage due to the fact that its designed for use against human antagonists or is it because of the recoil, overpenetration, etc of the 44mag that its a better choice?
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Old May 18, 2008, 04:36 PM   #6
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The 44 magnum can be loaded over a far broader range of loads then the 45 ACP. Your generalizations are pretty much worthless, because you can, as the ammo industry has done, load the 44 so it penetrates less then a 45 ACP, by using lighter, hollowpoint bullets.

I think the ideal self-defense round is pretty close to the old days 250 grains, or maybe 260, at at least 950 fps. This is a tried and true old 45 Colt load, and, with an LFN going 1200 fps, in the North 48, you can hunt anything with it. The 44 magnum easily matches these load parameters, and more.

The 45 ACP doesn't have the case strength, or pressure to move a 260 grain bullet this fast, though the 45 Super, 460 Rowland will.

Think the 45 ACP maybe penetrates 15", and half of that is not moving all that fast, and stays inside target. With heavier bullets, the 260 Plus grain 44 magnum will open quickly, and proceed through the target at high velocity, resulting in a much bigger, and more effective wound channel, and leaving both an entry and exit hole.

Recoil has nothing to do with caliber really: It's all about bullet and gun weight. I can load a .510 Maximum with a 300 grain bullet in a 3.6 pound gun to recoil like a 9mm full sized gun.

So, take all your preconceived notions, through them out the window, and, realize you can do pretty much anything you want with the 44, but not with the 45.
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Old May 18, 2008, 05:15 PM   #7
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Will a factory jhp 44magnum 240gr at 1180fps displace more tissue on a human than a factory jhp 45acp 230gr at 850fps? I can't word it any more simply!
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Old May 18, 2008, 05:28 PM   #8
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Quote:
Will a factory jhp 44magnum 240gr at 1180fps displace more tissue on a human than a factory jhp 45acp 230gr at 850fps? I can't word it any more simply!
Are you talking about creating a larger wound cavity or depth of penetration?

I think with deductive reasoning you can find that your answer lies in your question...

You're pushing a bullet that's a bit heavier at more than 350fps in a .44 compared to the .45. There's more kinetic energy that will need to be dealt with at the point of impact. More damage to human tissue, bones, etc. will happen with more kinetic energy to be displaced in a vacuum scenario....generally speaking....
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Old May 18, 2008, 05:52 PM   #9
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From The Brass Fetcher Online
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index.html
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Federal%...ydra-Shok.html



http://www.brassfetcher.com/230grainHSSB.html



Notice any difference? What appears to be the difference in impact???
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Old May 18, 2008, 06:26 PM   #10
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"Will a factory jhp 44magnum 240gr at 1180fps displace more tissue on a human than a factory jhp 45acp 230gr at 850fps? I can't word it any more simply!"

Try one of each and let us know.
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Old May 18, 2008, 06:35 PM   #11
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if recoil and rate of fire were not an issue?

If they are not an issue, then you are shooting the same thing. A difference of 10gr weight and .022" impact diameter (which will change after impact) is rather insignificant. If you load the .44 mag down to match the recoil of the .45acp (and rate of fire) then you are in effect shooting a ".44acp" and the tiny difference in bullet weight and diameter are insignificant.

Your question answers itself.
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Old May 18, 2008, 06:52 PM   #12
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I don't see this. Gunweight determines recoil. You can make 44 magnum recoil the same as a 45 ACP, depending on gunweight, and bullet weight, and, end up with far superior ballistics in the 44.
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Old May 18, 2008, 08:02 PM   #13
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The 45 will probably stop in the assailant. The 44 Mag will probably leave a big hole out the other side. That should make it clear.
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Old May 18, 2008, 08:19 PM   #14
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It depends on bullet construction as well. Many .44 Magnum loadings, even JHP, are designed for hunting an use a controlled expansion bullet. Because of this, they often penetrate completely through a human with little or no expansion. If that happens, then the .45 ACP with a properly designed JHP would be more effective. However, if the .44 Magnum uses a bullet designed for personal protection that performs adequately (expands without fragmenting) I'd say that it would be the more effective of the two.
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Old May 18, 2008, 10:32 PM   #15
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.45 will most likely stop a BG. .44 will stop the BG and the guy behind him. That is if shooting full power loads and good defensive bullet designs out of both.
http://www.remington.com/Products/Am...on/Ballistics/
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Old May 19, 2008, 09:00 AM   #16
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Thanks everyone, I thought maybe because the 44mag is capable of up to 1000lbs of ME it might cause more damage than the 45's 391lbs ME but it does not. The question was hypothetical, I'd never suggest a 44mag for self defense I was just curious if it would put a man down as well as the 45 but it doesnt sound like it. Thanks
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Old May 19, 2008, 10:05 AM   #17
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"I'd never suggest a 44mag for self defense I was just curious if it would put a man down as well as the 45 but it doesnt sound like it."

I'm at a loss as to how you come to that conclusion. The bullet weights are close to the same, and both will fire JHPs. The .44 mag. has a LOT more force at impact, due to the higher initial velocity. If the bullet is properly designed, it will expand and spend all that energy inside the BG. Now, I wouldn't want to be shot with either, but the .44 mag. has enough impact to back the BG up. A .44 mag. would make a good carry piece, IF you could hide it and IF you could shoot it from a snubbie barrel. Yup, they make .44 mag. snubbies!!!
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Old May 19, 2008, 04:37 PM   #18
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I'd be more worried about who's behind anyone unfortunate enough to be the recipient of a well placed .44 Mag. Like Charles Bronson says "Makes a real mess". While I would feel confident with either .44 or .45 I think for home defense I would opt for the .45, especially when you take in to consideration muzzle blast, wall penetration, and probable hearing loss.
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Old May 19, 2008, 04:56 PM   #19
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The higher the speed, the quicker the bullet expands in the target. Look at the gello results above, and you'll see that 180 grain bullet, 44 magnum, transfers energy into the gello on impact that the 45 ACP can only dream of.

Given proper bullet construction, the 44 magnum is so far beyond the 45 ACP that the wounding mechanism changes, approaching rifle effects.

The only real world shooting with a 44 on a human was an Arizona DA. And yes, it did exactly what Harry Callahan said it would do, using a glasser safety slug. The BG pointed a rifle at the DA...
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Old May 19, 2008, 10:23 PM   #20
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The .44Mag has a significant velocity advantage. It depends entirely on the bullet. If it's a tough game bullet, it will just cut a .430" hole. If it expands rapidly, the mess it leaves will be considerable. The problem with the .44Mag and self defense is that most factory ammo uses a tougher bullet for hunting. A handloaded 200gr Gold Dot or 200gr Silvertip, designed to open at SAAMI-spec .44Spl velocities, will act like a varmint bullet at 1500fps with predictably nasty results.
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Old May 20, 2008, 07:46 AM   #21
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The most important variable is accuracy and shot placement.

Which can you shoot most accurately?
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Old May 20, 2008, 01:47 PM   #22
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The answer to the question is, I think, simple provided that you know that you can load the .44 mag do do many tasks.

The .44 Magnum is potentially a much more powerful round than the .45 acp.

If you load down the .44 Mag it is a very good self defense round the equal of the .45 acp.

You can also load it to velocities and pressures just above that of the .45 acp and with the right bullet it beats the .45 acp as a self defense round without overpenetration or excessive recoil and muzzle blast. You can do the same, in terms of self defense loads, with the .44 Spl. by the way.

If loaded right the .44 Mag has an edge as a self defense round over the .45 acp. Socrates is right here.

So do you prefer a revolver or a pistol. If the latter choose the .45acp. The platform varies a whole lot and will weigh a lot in a shooters choice.

Quote:
Given PROPER SHOT PLACEMENT, a .22 will stop a human.
Some folks say this alot without thinking it through. If a shooter is very, very lucky a .22 may stop someone. But the .22 only has stopping power on squirrels and such on humans it lacks stopping power. It lacks smackability (I believe that's the scientific term) the ability to smack a mother------. It can kill a person, in 5 minutes, two days, a week, maybe right away. But it has very little stopping power unless you are lucky.

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Old May 21, 2008, 12:03 AM   #23
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There is no free lunch

you can load the .44 mag down to match the .45acp, and have essentially the same thing as the .45 acp. Or you can use a bigger, heavier gun that absorbs the recoil of the full house .44 mag, so that shot to shot recovery time is matched to the usual .45 acp package, like the Desert Eagle .44 Mag, which feels a lot like a hot loaded .45 acp in recoil. However, you are using a gun that is about twice the size and weight of the regular .45 auto, and that creates drawbacks of it's own.

The generally accepted standard of more is better when it comes to energy and expansion for anti-personel ammo, as long as penetration meets minimum requirements, must be balanced by the physical constraints of the launching platform, AND the user. Many shooters can do better work, faster with a large .44 than they can with a micro mini .45acp. Some people are the exact opposite, and most of us will fall somewhere inbetween.

Something like a .44 Desert Eagle allows you to put out a lot of heavy fire accurately and rapidly (with enough practice)m but it is hardly a suitable carry piece for self defense, and CCW is rather difficult for most folks. And most regular .44 mag ammo is not optimised for humans, tending to be way over penetrating, which is a serious concern to many people. With bullets designed to stop people, the .44 mag should be statistically more effective than the .45 auto, because of the greater energy, but remember there is no free lunch. For everything you get, you have to give up something.

One of the reasons the .45 auto has been so popular for so many years is the blend of power, controlability, and portability of the cartridge and the guns common for it. It has been, for many years the best blend or balance of all these factors.
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Old May 21, 2008, 02:40 AM   #24
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I figure the Speer Short Barrel 200 grain Gold Dot HP will do a good job with personal protection. I asked Speer if a longer barrel, I have a 4" barreled 329PD, would cause a problem using the Short Barrel Gold Dot ammunition. The response was essentially the longer barrel will give a little more veocity, a thus a little more penetration and a little more expansion.

Somehow I do not see the .45acp matching the ballistics, or terminal effects of the .44 magnum when loaded with personal protection ammunition.

gunblast.com actually seems to have come to the conclusion that the Speer Short Barrel Gold Dot HP loads in a Ruger Bulldog were a better personal defense load than the .45 acp ... "Namely, which ammunition to use? Properly loaded, the .44 Special should easily equal the excellent performance of the .45 ACP." See:

http://www.gunblast.com/Cassill_Bulldog.htm

Keep in mind these Speer Personal Defense rounds were designed for a .44 Special. Shot in the light weight S&W 329PD gives a little better performance:

from http://le.atk.com/general/speerprodu...ortbarrel.aspx


Ballistic Charts


Velocity

Energy

Wind Drift

Average Range



Jump to: Load Details | Velocity | Energy | Wind Drift | Average-Range | Bullet Images


Compare Ballistics

Part Number
Brand:

23971
GOLD DOT SHORT BARREL DUTY AMMUNITION

23975
GOLD DOT SHORT BARREL DUTY AMMUNITION


Load Details

Part Number
Caliber
Bullet Weight
Grains / Grams
Bullet style
T.B*

23971
44 Magnum
200 / 12.96
GDHP-SB
4V

23975
45 Auto
230 / 14.9
GDHP-SB
4


Velocity in Feet Per Second


Muzzle
25
50
75
100

23971
1075
1031
994
962
933

23975
820
801
783
766
749

Energy in Foot Pounds


Muzzle
25
50
75
100

23971
513
472
439
411
387

23975
343
328
313
300
287

Wind Drift in Inches 10 MPH Crosswind


25
50
75
100

23971
0.3
1.0
2.2
3.9

23975
0.1
0.6
1.6
3.0

Average Range


25
50
75
100

23971

-1.1
-4.5
-10.2

23975

-2.5
-8.5
-18.3
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Last edited by Hook686; May 21, 2008 at 03:16 AM.
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Old May 21, 2008, 03:08 PM   #25
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In theory, you could load down a .44 magnum to .45 ACP. In reality, why would you bother when .44 Special would be almost the same? Not to mention that some attorneys who would try you for shooting a bad guy might use handloads against you, or the choice of a .44 magnum. If you want to shoot them with a .44 loaded down, better just to get a .45 or a .44 special, at least insofar as possible legal issues.

But if you just want to know if .44 will stop as well as a .45, the main thing that incapitates a bad guy isn't the power of the load, or where all the energy is transmitted, but the wound channel left behind. If a .44 magnum full power load shoots a 240 grain jhp at 1300 fps out a 6 inch barrel, and it hits a BG, it will probably expant quickly and leave a large exit wound, which would likely cause more damage than a .45 shooting 230 grain jhps at about 900 fps.
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