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Old May 22, 2008, 09:40 AM   #76
primlantah
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We should be looking at worst case scenarios.
Thats the word people! Get your Abrams tanks in case shtf. If your running in the park you might be approached by a band of mercenaries in the worst case scenario.

+1 David Armstrong
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Old May 22, 2008, 10:41 AM   #77
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What exactly classifies as a "worst case" scenario.

For example, about one month ago on cable they showed some security camera footage of the Angels and Mongols duking it out in a public gambling casino. One of them pulled a gun, one person was shot to death.

Well, my wife and my SIL like to go to an Indian gaming casino nearby for the afternoons until their roll of pennies is gone. They also have a time-share in Vegas from a deceased uncle.

So, the worst case scenario for my wife is being caught in the crossfire of a national biker gang war.

My wife is a suburban teacher who's never even gotten a parking ticket. She's so squeaky clean I cannot figure out how we got together in the first place.

So let's go to the other extreme. The worst I've seen is pool cues and knives. Got my nose broken twice watching drunken bubbas spit up all over themselves.

By the parameters of the debate, my wife has a greater scenario risk. I'm not sure they sell GE mini-guns to teachers.
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Old May 22, 2008, 12:33 PM   #78
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"LIKELY is the operative word. I wouldn't bet my well being on "likely" and neither should you."

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But you do, whether one likes to admit it or not. Most of the time one is betting their well being on "likely". We drive to work because it is "likely" we won't get in a wreck. We go places on vacation because it is "likely" we will have a good time instead of getting mauled by a bear or drown in the lake or whatever. We carry a particular gun/caliber combination because we think it is "likely" to handle our needs.
No, I choose to carry a full sized pistol with at least one magazine... No "mouse guns" here. Yes, it's easier in Michigan - it was probably 45 degrees last night, but I travel home (South Louisiana) during the summer and I work with my father's construction crew while I'm there - with either a full-sized, all steel Gov't Model with two extra magazines or my Smith & Wesson M&P with one extra.

When I'm out in the field I have a Smith & Wesson 629 Mountain Gun for curiously aggressive Black Bears.

It's all called COMMON SENSE where I'm from. Your perceptions are obviously different.

Quote:
Thats the word people! Get your Abrams tanks in case shtf. If your running in the park you might be approached by a band of mercenaries in the worst case scenario.
Yep, it's attitudes like this that catch people wholly unaware and unprepared. "I didn't think it could happen..." Go sing it to a frog.

So, why WOULD you even POSSESS a firearm - much less CARRY one if it's not for the scenario that you'd have to use it to full effect???
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Old May 22, 2008, 01:07 PM   #79
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So, why WOULD you even POSSESS a firearm - much less CARRY one if it's not for the scenario that you'd have to use it to full effect??
because the firearms i choose are not for the worst case scenario. I accept there is some possibility... but i wont go for a jog with an ak-74 over my shoulder.

As stated earlier, no one here is saying a mouse gun is better... were saying a mouse gun is a tool for a job that the bigger weapons dont fit in.

you can go secure yourself an attack helicopter incase the neighbor wants your wallet... but my neighbor wouldnt be getting that easy smash and grab with a mouse lodging a little pea in his guts. the pistol is to give an edge when someone doesnt get the idea your dont want to be messed with... not gurantee you can kill 10 armored guys with black rifles.

if you want to talk about preparing for a revolution, your words have merit. Were talking about getting to the mail box.
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Old May 22, 2008, 03:00 PM   #80
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Agreed. Mouse guns and minor calibers don't get much respect, but when it comes right down to it, they will probably take care of 95%+ of everything the CCW holder will get involved with.
.....or at least we hope they will.

However, with a lack of dependable data to prove that point, and while the choice of a mouse works for you, it does not work for me.

That said, I don't feel the need to carry a Lupara on a daily basis, but I do draw the line with a J Frame Smith or a compact 9MM semi auto.
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Old May 22, 2008, 03:10 PM   #81
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Better to Have and not Need...

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because the firearms i choose are not for the worst case scenario. I accept there is some possibility... but i wont go for a jog with an ak-74 over my shoulder.
This is a "fool's argument". Where has it been advocated to carry a carbine??? Is it legal to carry an AKM concealed where you live?? I didn't think so...

The "debate" is whether or not it is wise to carry something that you would actually WANT to have if you were confronted with deadly force or carry something that is ubber convenient and less than ideal.

And last I checked being physically assaulted by someone(s) or something(s) with intent to do grave bodily injury or worse would, in fact, be a "worst case scenario". The probability and the possibility are entirely different. The end result is the same. The kind of thinking being advocated leaves too much of the door open for many scenarios - multiple assaulters, highly motivated assaulter(s), very combative dogs. I feel it's much better to have a proper fighting pistol and not need it than the reverse...
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Old May 22, 2008, 06:15 PM   #82
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the gun i carry, 45
my house gun pistol grip 12 guage(7 shot, 18 inch barrel)
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Old May 22, 2008, 08:38 PM   #83
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Humor

I've had an epiphany. I'll just get a tattoo of a mouse and a Kel-Tec on each bicep and it'll act as a talisman. Now I can leave all of the polymer & steel at home.
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Old May 22, 2008, 08:45 PM   #84
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FWIW, my Kel-Tec PF-9 could be referred to as a "rat gun," since it has a bit more bite than a mouse gun, being a 9x19.

The K-T P-11 is 9x19 also, and can be easily converted to .40 S&W (then you have a P-40) .

I am not a mouse gun fan, either. 9x19 is as low as I care to go, given a choice. I am also going to shoot it in IDPA matches. Even though I do my best to NEVER have to use it in earnest, I try to be prepared if the worst comes.
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Old May 23, 2008, 05:36 AM   #85
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Good for you, shep. Few who carry micro-pistols ever really run them.

From the CPL classes I've assisted in they don't seem to last. That would be my first comment and the micro-pistols, as a genre, are difficult to really run: securing a good grip, runing failure drills, magazine changes and engaging and effectively hitting multiple targets (A zone) beyond, say, 7 yds at speed. I've tried them in El Presidente drills & "mini' El Presidente drills and they do not give me much confidence, but neither does a J frame.

Both are intended as Back-Up weapons. All silliness aside I'd like to see you (and others) transition to something else.

Some I've found to be concealable and more than adequate for the type of shooting you're considering:

HK P7
HK P2000
HK P30

essentially something much easier to draw, shoot multiple targets with multiple shots at speed and keeping all shots within a fist-sized group, reload and run failure drills at speed, under pressure.

You'll find yourself with more confidence in your ability and, at least for me, I began to actually enjoy carrying. YMMV
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Old May 23, 2008, 07:22 AM   #86
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In nearly 20 years of CCW, I have gone from full-size (Colt Commander) to the rat gun.

The PF-9 has a remarkably easy trigger, for a DOA. I do most of my shooting at 10 yd, right hand, both, left. At 10 yd, keeping shots center-mass is pretty easy.

The IDPA thing is to help imprint tactics in my responses. While IDPA was conceived to reflect the real world, the temptation to let it become another game is strong. I doubt I will ever win a match, since simple speed is not my goal. While the timer does add some pressure, I strive to do things like use available cover effectively or keep distance from the targets, as much as I would want to do if I were actually shooting for my life. For example, at the last (well, actually the first) match I shot, there was a stage which was simply draw and shoot 10 rd at 5 targets (threat determined by distance). There just happened to be a couple of barrels standing at the firing line, to place gear on while preparing. When the timer sounded, I dropped behind them for cover, then shot. And so on through the match. As expected, I came in dead last, but if I build reactions that could save my bacon, it is worthwhile.
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Old May 23, 2008, 09:27 AM   #87
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I have gone from full-size (Colt Commander) to the rat gun
I know the feeling... though im lacking the years. My first gun was a doublestack 45 and my last gun was a pm9. nothin wrong with that
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Old May 23, 2008, 10:36 AM   #88
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Jogging Alone, Unarmed - Nature is INTOLERANT of Fools

For those who like to jog off of the beaten path please take a look here. This just in from Southern Indiana:

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/ind-canids/
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Old May 23, 2008, 12:30 PM   #89
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From www.getoffthex.com forum. You have to register so I simply cut and pasted some responses from the LE guys who are either dog handlers, agitators or had run-ins with aggressive dogs while on duty.

Quote:
National Geo clip on different styles of dog attack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZm037jPNgc

70% of this clip is valuable

I was chased down by a chow mix. That f%$#$ closed the gap so fast that he got a piece of me before I could touch him. He went high then low. I won, but shudder to think about what a trained or truly badass dog could do.
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I shot a 90lb psycho-mutt about four years ago, that incident still makes me twitch. I was going around the back of a house on a domestic call, and as I rounded the corner I looked down and saw two big eyes and a really big set of teeth. Started backpeddling, and promptly stepped on some snow and fell flat on my butt. That dog was on me insanely quick. I fired the first round when he was about two feet from the soles of my boots, it missed him slightly low. Second round skipped off his chest plate and hit him in the nuts (sorry). I was pulling the trigger for #3 when he clamped down on my right foot, breaking two toes and destroying a nearly new boot. Now I had two problems - get Cujo there off my foot and not shoot myself. #'s 3, 4, 5, and 6 went into a fist size group centered on his face, finally dropping him. #7 was on the way when the lights went out, and went high and hit a tree in the backyard.

That has been, thus far and knock on wood, the only time I have been injured on duty, but hey, I did it with class.
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In my experience as a Police K9 Handler, I can tell you that out of the (14) apprehensions my dog has had in the last four years, every BG didn't know what the f*ck to do when the dog latched on. When the BG fights the dog, it kicks in the dogs "fight drive"... then your really f~*%$d! When the dog, at least mine, is in "fight drive" the "out" **** is just that... ****! When the dog reaches that level, you have to choke them off the bite... its almost like a shark at a feeding frenzy. I've seen guys square up to the dog as the dog is sent, analyzing how they are going to defeat 30 mph of pure ass hammer, EVERY time, they lose, bad! So... if you don't have a gun to shoot a charging dog... well, you're just screwed... PERIOD!
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What many folks tend to not understand, or underestimate, is these dogs can kill you.

Now, is it likely? Maybe, maybe not, depending on various factors. Is it possible? Yes. These dogs bite with enough strength to shatter bone and destroy nerves, tissue, etc. A single bite, without the dog thrashing, can leave you permanantly disabled. Most often the harder you fight, the harder the dog is going to fight back. If they latch on, you've got literally fractions of a second to fix the problem before you have a very bad day.

The best answer is not to get into a situation where you'd have to deal with it. Use your situational awareness and the tools you have available, and put obstacles between you and the dog. Read the last as: hard obstacles. A ****ing screen door isn't going to work; neither is a 3ft fence.

After that, your best option is a firearm, and a fairly large one at that, with a shot to the brain bucket. As others have stated, a trained & motivated working dog intent on ruining your day can withstand an incredible amount of damage before they finally die.

The "water jug on a rope" idea is fine, but having someone pull it isn't going to be fast enough. I'd recommend attaching it to a vehicle or a 4 wheeler to get it some speed.

I'd also suggest http://getoffthex.com/eve/forums/a/t...5121068773/p/2 from last year, with your focus on the replies from the resident K-9 handlers.

Phil
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OCs does not allways work, so do not count on it as a stand alone technique. I have sprayed / engaged several dogs of various breeds during work and have the OCS fail. I mean godd full on full muzzle / hot sauce donwn the throat and for some it worked and for ours it limited effect. A highly motivated mongrol can bite and open up a leg, arm and or hand for stitchs just as well as a pit bull and or other breed.

After my first OCS failure, I learned my lesson.
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Old May 23, 2008, 07:31 PM   #90
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Chui, THAT is scary!

I have had enough interaction with dogs that I can usually "read" them; sound, posture, hair, ears, etc. Recently, though, I had encounter with a friend's pit bull that was plain eery (scary eery). My friend got the pit when she (dog) was about a year and a half old, so she had already been conditioned. During the evening, is seemed that I had "made friends" with the pit; she was playful and friendly.

Just before I left, I was standing and talking to my friend. The dog was near my feet. I glanced down, and suddenly, there was a change in her. She didn't move a muscle, but her eyes went cold. I had done nothing provocative, but suddenly she went aggressive. My friend saw it also, and immediately pulled her back. Until that night, I have always been able predict, to some degree, a dog's behavior; even the pit of another friend who had raised her from weaning.
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Old May 24, 2008, 07:37 AM   #91
Chui
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Yes, I was raised around "bulldogs" (i.e., APBTs or American Pit Bull Terriers) but these dogs were from dogfighting bloodlines (and stock) so we never had any issues with them around humans but they'd inhale other dogs - except for the incident with the reserve mail carrier who sprayed him with mace.

I've asked a friend and police officer to put on a dog sleeve and allow his working dog to attack me such that I can "see for self" and use this as some sort of "fear innoculation". I don't think it's a good idea from a liability perspective, however.

I love dogs and they never cease to amaze me when playing with them how agile and quick they are. Their ability to accelerate and change direction in mind boggling. I always remind myself that "a predator is showing signs of affection" as opposed to "hey, the nice dog wants to be petted". I adore them just the same but I've witnessed, first hand, the raw athleticism of dogs - from my own gamebred Pit Bulls (words defy their ability) to my cousin's French Bulldog-Standard Poodle cross (jaw dropping agility and strength). My brother owned a working strain Rottweiler pup and Caesar and I got very close as I'd always encourage him to wrestle when he was little. By the time he was 8 months old he must have weighed 70 lbs or more and he while I had him on his back wrestling with him a neighbor walked up. The speed in which he rolled, jumped and grabbed the guy's coat (only because he hit me on his launch) left me cold.

Again, my biggest concern is to be ATTACKED not by two thugs though that would be horrible but to have something like an American Bulldog or Rottweiler deciding that I don't belong on the planet. ALL of your martial arts/pistol handling/pistol shooting will be severely tested. In fact, it's one of my recurring nightmares: American Bulldog interrupts whatever dream I'm having; his head is as large as mine and his teeth are the size of my thumbs. It aint pretty. This is why I've repeatedlyt suggested running at a local track and riding your bike with a full size pistol. That Labrador Retreiver down the street may well be friendly, but I cannot read their minds - only their body language - but this afternoon it may decide that you deserve nothing less than a full bore attack. Yes, you may be bitten but I'd like to read here that you vanquished it (i.e., DRT = dead right there). And just as your experience I had a Bassett Hound do the same damned thing to me. It snarled and snapped at me. Thank God I was really paying attention. I was ******. I don't know what upset me more: me for misreading him or the dog for trying to bite ME, of all persons.

Stay safe,
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Old May 26, 2008, 03:36 PM   #92
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Mannlicher, Some folks are fixated on statistics and probabilities. They choose to carry despite the high probability of never having to use the gun. Then they get crazy when we prepare for something slightly more improbable (having to force compliance by causing massive trauma and blood loss to the bad guy).

All IMO to justify not being willing, able, or both to carry bigger.

I wouldn't go into bear country armed with a 9mm for the same reason I won't rely on a mouse against two legged critters.

Lets break this down in probabilities. I am not statistically likely to be attacked by a bear despite being in bear country.....so a 9mm is adequate. If a bear does threaten me just the sight of my 9mm might frighten it away....so a 9mm is adequate. If a bear does attempt an attack firing a few rounds might frighten away the bear....so a 9mm is adequate. The last and most unlikely event is having to stop the bear still most sane folks who choose to carry in bear country carry bear medicine calibers. Self defense on the street to me is no different.

The above is for those who carry mice on purpose only. for those who simply cannot carry larger anything is better than nothing.
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Old May 26, 2008, 06:57 PM   #93
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So, the worst case scenario for my wife is being caught in the crossfire of a national biker gang war.
And do you really think that pulling out a high-cap large caliber gun and starting shooting at either or both sides in this event will improve the chances of survival??
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Old May 26, 2008, 07:07 PM   #94
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No, I choose to carry a full sized pistol with at least one magazine
But you are still betting on "likely." You are saying that it is likel.y that whatever you encounter will be solved by that particualr gun. You won't need at least 2 more bullets, or a different design, or anything else. That particular gun, with that particular ammo, and that particualr number of rounds, will "likely" take care of you.
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When I'm out in the field I have a Smith & Wesson 629 Mountain Gun for curiously aggressive Black Bears.
You prove my point. You don't carry that normally becasue it is not likely you will need it. In a particualr situation you do choose to carry it becaseu you feel it is likely to be what is needed. You apprently do not feel thta it is likely you will need "either a full-sized, all steel Gov't Model with two extra magazines or my Smith & Wesson M&P with one extra" or you would carry them.
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It's all called COMMON SENSE where I'm from. Your perceptions are obviously different.
One of the most interesting things about "common sense" is that it is not that common, and quite ften it doesn't make sense. I think we have that here. You don't get to argue that one doesn't base their decisions on what is likely and then discuss how you select different guns for different situations. Somewhat contradictory.
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So, why WOULD you even POSSESS a firearm - much less CARRY one if it's not for the scenario that you'd have to use it to full effect???
Because that scenario is so rare and improbable that it just doesn't concern most folks. That is why few carry full size guns with multiple reloads and so on, yet manage to do just fine.
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Old May 26, 2008, 07:11 PM   #95
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or at least we hope they will.
No, we don't hope they will, we know that they will. We have tons of data that show us just exactly that. There is no guessing here. No study of DGU incidents has ever indicated that caliber plays a significant role in the outcome of the event.
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Old May 26, 2008, 07:19 PM   #96
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Lets break this down in probabilities. I am not statistically likely to be attacked by a bear despite being in bear country.....so a 9mm is adequate. If a bear does threaten me just the sight of my 9mm might frighten it away....so a 9mm is adequate. If a bear does attempt an attack firing a few rounds might frighten away the bear....so a 9mm is adequate. The last and most unlikely event is having to stop the bear still most sane folks who choose to carry in bear country carry bear medicine calibers. Self defense on the street to me is no different.
Once again your inability to understand basic statistcal analysis, much less actually use statistics in an informed manner, shows itself. Sigh.
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Then they get crazy when we prepare for something slightly more improbable (having to force compliance by causing massive trauma and blood loss to the bad guy).
Ummm, not to point out the obvious, but the ones here getting crazy seem to be the ones that are opposed to mouseguns, not those that recognize their utility. None of the pro-mousegun side is griping about what the others carry, or insulting their choices, or trying to convince them how wrong they are, etc.
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Old May 27, 2008, 12:16 PM   #97
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None of the pro-mousegun side is griping about what the others carry, or insulting their choices, or trying to convince them how wrong they are, etc.
We aren't trying to convince the pro mousegun guys that they are wrong as much as influence folks on the fence to choose bigger than a mouse when possible.

I understand you perfectly David. I just disagree with you. Its hard to prove on paper of course but I feel a larger caliber could have swayed events in many shoot outs. Thats why I love your use of stats but only to an extent. There is a point were factors like a bullets ability to penetrate deeply and smash bones could have weighted heavier on the outcome. I know of 3 semi personal events were caliber might have changed the outcome. One I posted earlier.....had the bad guy hit the good lady with a heavier caliber (than a 22lr) she might have missed or been less accurate in her return fire. #2 My uncle, many moons ago, fired 3 rounds through the front door of his home at a man breaking his door down. The 38 special rounds penetrated the solid core door and struck the bad guy ending the attack. A 22 or 25 may not have been able to do so. #3 A friend visiting Miami for a family wedding got lost in the Liberty City area. While stopped at a light (pinned in by front and back traffic) a bad guy broke the passenger window with a pipe. My friend fired a single round through the metal between the front passenger door and rear glass. The round penetrated the metal and entered the bad guys lung ending the attack and allowing my friend and his wife to escape to call police. Could the 22 or 25 round have done the same? Here I have 3 semi personal examples were caliber might have effected the outcome. Yet I'm supposed to believe that caliber isn't a bigger deal than you and your stats indicate.

Quote:
Once again your inability to understand basic statistcal analysis, much less actually use statistics in an informed manner, shows itself. Sigh.
Again I understand you. I understand the stats. I just disagree. I also understand that a 22lr or 25acp fired from a pistol will not penetrate an 11/2 of solid wood (my uncles 38 did). I understand the difference in pain between having a round bounce off your bone compared to having a broken bone (could have effected #1). Considering most of the time I spend out and about is either in a restaurant/other store or in my car it is nice to have some ability to penetrate.

Stats are great but the real life around me seems to suggest that bigger is better as it relates to the mouse vs full sized carry gun calibers.
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Old May 27, 2008, 12:44 PM   #98
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We aren't trying to convince the pro mousegun guys that they are wrong as much as influence folks on the fence to choose bigger than a mouse when possible.
LOL! A classic example of doublespeak!
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Its hard to prove on paper of course but I feel a larger caliber could have swayed events in many shoot outs.
There is the basic difference. I tend to put aside feelings when given facts. I prefer to base decisions on reality instead of make-believe.
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There is a point were factors like a bullets ability to penetrate deeply and smash bones could have weighted heavier on the outcome.
Sure, just like there are times when factors like smallness and ease of carry could have weighed heavier. The key is "could have".
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Here I have 3 semi personal examples were caliber might have effected the outcome. Yet I'm supposed to believe that caliber isn't a bigger deal than you and your stats indicate.
You don't have to believe it, your own examples show it. Note the repeated and common use of the word "might" in there? Your uncle MIGHT have chased off the BG with a .22. Do you think you would continue beating down a door if somebody is shooting at you from the other side? Or would you be yelling "Hey man, what caliber is that gun? I need to decide if I should go away or keep getting shot at!"
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Again I understand you. I understand the stats.
If you understand them you should not continue to use them incorrectly to try to prove a point. That goes beyond disagreement. That is dishonesty, assuming that you really do understand what you are saying.
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Stats are great but the real life around me seems to suggest that bigger is better as it relates to the mouse vs full sized carry gun calibers.
As we've seen before, your suggestions sometimes seem somewhat flawed. Better is based on many factors. Self defense is based on many factors. What is better for self defense and DGU combines those factors. Caliber is towards the bottom of those factors according to all the research I've seen. If you wish to carry bigger/more/whatever that is fine, but please don't try to suggest the smaller guns have not shown themselves to be just as effective in virtually all DGU situations.
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Old May 27, 2008, 01:00 PM   #99
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You don't have to believe it, your own examples show it. Note the repeated and common use of the word "might" in there? Your uncle MIGHT have chased off the BG with a .22. Do you think you would continue beating down a door if somebody is shooting at you from the other side? Or would you be yelling "Hey man, what caliber is that gun? I need to decide if I should go away or keep getting shot at!"
LOL! Maybe he should tattoo 50BMG on his arm to show bad guys that he is ready for anything from man to airplane.
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Old May 27, 2008, 02:14 PM   #100
Epyon
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Join Date: July 10, 2006
Location: Awesome, Colorado
Posts: 700
Observation on dogs...

I have a few friends who have dogs that have never heard a firearm being shot, yet the moment any of us are ever handling firearms in a room, the dogs will usually clear the room in a hurry. These are different dogs owned by different people.


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