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Old May 16, 2008, 06:10 PM   #51
Deaf Smith
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ISC: Again, there is no way that you can carry even a 9mm in PT shorts and a tank top (what I wear running in the summer here in Florida). That little .22 was even an inconvenience, anything with any weight will throw off your stride and make your shorts start to sag before you break a sweat. I liked the NAA because I could disassemble it after a run and wash the sweat off with HOT water and then reoil it.

I keep looking for another one, but they're like $250+ for one with a grip holster in .22 mag.
Tank-tops? Well if your fashon dictates your weapons, then self-defense must be a low priority to. Why not speedos to while you are at it?

Yea you can pack many a good size guns. It's call dropping weight. Dieting. Working out. Getting fit. Or as I've posted on Glocktalk, Gut .vs. Gun.

I used to be 185+ for 5' 8". I'm now 165 for the same height. I workout alot and I fell ten times better. And yes, the size 36 pants lets me carry any Glock made in the summer. And that's wearing shorts and a t-shirt.
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Old May 16, 2008, 06:22 PM   #52
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I have to talke the APFT for the army twice a year. Back then I had to take it every month. One of the things on the test is a 2 mile run and the only thing that will really prepare you for a running test is running.

I'm not in the shape I used to be and It doesn't hurt my feelings (much) that my run times are up to 15 minutes. I'm 37, I deserve a little break.

I still have to run though in order to prepare for the APFT (promotion points) and when I lead PT sessions full of 19 year old soldiers. I live in a different neighborhood now, but I still worry about dogs more than the 2 legged predators around here. Its funny how much respect one gets in my neighborhood where everyone looks different than me because they see me working out in my driveway or running around the hood.

I haven't been carrying but had a bit of a start the other day when I was running and a BIG black pittbull mix ran straight at his fence when I ran by him and I didn't see him until he hit the fence and started raising Cain. It startled me and made me jump because I wasn't expecting it and could barely see him in the dusk.

That incident made me think about the rottweiler and getting another NAA or possibly a .38 derringer. The downside to the derringer is that the possibility of a warning shot to scare off a dog isn't really there. If it attacks after your warning shot (admittedly unlikely unless it's had specific training) you've got one shot to kill it and no recourse for a kill shot while he's knawing on your kneecap.
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Old May 16, 2008, 08:15 PM   #53
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ISC,

I'm only 53. Work out 5 days a week (and I'm not kidding.) Time to get back into shape before you can't do it.
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Old May 19, 2008, 10:06 AM   #54
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ISC, All we are trying to say is that you can carry bigger and run. We have done it. Change your attire or get a fanny pack...it can be done if you want to.
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Old May 19, 2008, 11:48 AM   #55
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To reiterate---if your success in a gunfight is based on the caliber you select, you've already gotten so many other problems that caliber is the least of your concerns.
David, My success in a gunfight might fall to my cartridges ability of penetrate past bone and skull. That has nothing to do with my ability to put rounds on target or the tactics I use while doing so. For you to continually suggest that "mouseguns" can cause, in equal amounts as bigger bored guns, the blood loss necessary to incapacitate is nuts.

It seems with you that everything revolves around statistics. Still you carry a gun when statistics say you will probably never need one. My adversary may not have gotten your memo that they should give up at the mere sight of any firearm. They may force me to shoot them. They may not give up with the pain. I will agree that at this point I am in deep trouble however having a gun that is harder to shoot, penetrates much less, and who's bullets cause less blood loss is only going to worsen that trouble.

I know a lady who shot and killed a home invader after taking a hit to the arm from a 22lr. One can only speculate what the outcome would have been had the bad guy been armed with a larger caliber considering that the little 22 went through her arm and into the rib cage but failed to break her humerus or puncture her vitals.
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Old May 19, 2008, 05:06 PM   #56
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My success in a gunfight might fall to my cartridges ability of penetrate past bone and skull.
And you success in a gun fight might fall to a large number of other issues also.
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For you to continually suggest that "mouseguns" can cause, in equal amounts as bigger bored guns, the blood loss necessary to incapacitate is nuts.
There is just one problem here, one that is so common with you that I put you on “ignore” for quite a while---I never said that or anything like that. Once again you show that rather than deal with what is said you choose to make something up and then try to blame it on somebody else. Let's try to be honest.
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It seems with you that everything revolves around statistics
It seems strange to me that you think you can make generalized comments like that about my life based on a relatively few postings on the internet. However, most peoples lives revolve around statistics. I may be a bit more cognizant of that fact, or more willing to admit to it, but each of us every day makes dozens, maybe hundreds, of decisions based on what we think the likely outcome will be.
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Still you carry a gun when statistics say you will probably never need one.
What has that got to do with anything? It is not a black-white yes-no issue, it is an issue with a lot of gray, cost/benefit analysis, etc. And again, your lack of understanding about statistics is showing. An overall lifetime chance of needing a gun is actually fairly good. The chances of needing to shoot someone with it are much smaller, and that the caliber will play a big part is even smaller.
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....however having a gun that is harder to shoot, penetrates much less, and who's bullets cause less blood loss is only going to worsen that trouble.
In some situations it might. In most it won’t. And note that to get to that spot you have already had to deal with three very unlikely events. BTW, penetration is more a factor of bullet design than caliber, and mouseguns do not have to be much harder to shoot, if any.
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I know a lady who shot and killed a home invader after taking a hit to the arm from a 22lr.
I know a badguy who took 3 .45 ACP Gold Dots who wasn’t slowed down much, if any. As usual, individual anecdotes don’t mean much of anything. Maybe you should try understanding those statistics.
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Old May 19, 2008, 05:44 PM   #57
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And you success in a gun fight might fall to a large number of other issues also.
And this fact changes our disagreement how. These other factors might always be present but the problem of lack of penetration and larger wound channel won't be.

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There is just one problem here, one that is so common with you that I put you on “ignore” for quite a while---I never said that or anything like that
By supporting mouseguns and saying that they are "adequate" you are accepting the known limitations of those guns which are lack of penetration and small wound channel to name a couple. You never uttered the words but you are clearly a mousegun fan.

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It seems strange to me that you think you can make generalized comments like that about my life based on a relatively few postings on the internet. However, most peoples lives revolve around statistics. I may be a bit more cognizant of that fact, or more willing to admit to it, but each of us every day makes dozens, maybe hundreds, of decisions based on what we think the likely outcome will be.
As you noticed I said "it seems". You have been posting for a couple of years now (that I have been reading)and this has been a common occurrence. Not that its bad mind you just that you seem to allow stats to dictate your actions an awful lot.
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Old May 19, 2008, 07:05 PM   #58
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What has that got to do with anything? It is not a black-white yes-no issue, it is an issue with a lot of gray, cost/benefit analysis, etc. And again, your lack of understanding about statistics is showing. An overall lifetime chance of needing a gun is actually fairly good. The chances of needing to shoot someone with it are much smaller, and that the caliber will play a big part is even smaller.
The majority of civilians don't carry. Of those who don't only a small percentage have a need for a gun. I agree that the likly hood is even smaller that caliber will play a big part. Since both are unlikely statistically I asked you why do you carry yet feel caliber is not relevant. I think thats a fair question.

Quote:
I know a badguy who took 3 .45 ACP Gold Dots who wasn’t slowed down much, if any. As usual, individual anecdotes don’t mean much of anything. Maybe you should try understanding those statistics.
Now given the obvious weakness of a serious caliber in stopping a determined attacker, you still feel comfortable with a mouse? Thats my point. You won't risk going unarmed but will risk needing more power at a dire time.
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Old May 19, 2008, 10:09 PM   #59
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Keep in mind that a motivated dog can:

(A) Move a helluva lot quicker than any human
(B) Dish out tremendous punishment in short order
(C) Hard to hit when they are covering ground as quickly
(D) Absorb a lot of punishment - more, it seems at times than a human

Caliber WILL matter on a large, fast moving, highly motivated dog; just as much as will placement. I don't know how many here work with dogs but they are extremely quick. It boggles the mind to see something the size of a Rottweiler 'drop it in gear' and cover ground at what appears to be twice the rate of a highly trained athlete. IFF (if and only if) it has targeted you as "IT" you'll have only one shot (pun intended) and he's got a hold on you.

I cannot put a large enough exclamation on this: CARRY AN ADEQUATE PISTOL. TRAIN Proper "Point" Shooting as well as Surgical Speed Shooting because that's just what it's going to be (assuming you have a date with a highly motivated Rottie, American Bulldog or German Shepherd).

If you "cannot" deal with this advice then run at a local High School Track.

Pepper spray also works well (iff you are upwind of the beast) - I'd always carry this. It's on my bicycles and I carry it - especially when I choose to go walking. It gives me a less than lethal option.

An aside: Here in SE Michigan an elderly couple was mauled to death by a pack of American Bulldogs. I think it was primarily two but another was involved. Your Derringer/micropistol would not serve you well.

A fighting blade is comforting but you'll take a bite to use it. But you may take a bite anyway...

Good Luck

P.S.

Several support your claim that you cannot run with a pistol in FL in the summer. I disagree: J Frame and fanny pack. I know because I'm from South Louisiana. I ran track in HS and I still jog (though mostly I do track workouts on a track).

As for the "11 + 1 .45 ACP pistol"; well, that's ridiculous. No one advocated a full-sized service pistol...

".22LR in your breast pocket is better than the (I'll say 1911) in the car..." I will call BS on this one. You SHOULD have brought the (I'll say 1911 though it could be the M&P, Glock, Sig, XD...) the PROPER tool for the job and the job is engaging several highly motivated persons or a highly motivated Presa Canario or Fila Brasilero. To me that would be a full-sized pistol and a solid fighting blade on the weak side.

Look, I know everyone is unique and what is "adequate" for some is "too much" for some and "inferior" for others. Carry what you wish. If you're comfortable then go with it. However, expect "heated" discussions as to the logic by others who feel haat micro/mouse pistols have no place in their collections.
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Old May 20, 2008, 06:31 AM   #60
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One other point about dogs; I understand that they don't sense pain the way humans do (especially when aroused), and they certainly don't know that they are supposed to flop over when shot. So if the dog is in "fight" mode, don't expect it to stop until it is DEAD, or so many bones have been broken it cannot move, though the fighting breeds are likely to keep trying, so stay out of biting range.

Also, as calibers are discussed, keep firmly in mind that handguns (even the big bores) are WEAK, in the absolute sense. The .45 has about the energy of a pitched baseball.
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Old May 20, 2008, 06:52 AM   #61
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Valid points about dogs, shep.

The energy isn't what does the damage, per se. It's the ability to penetrate skin, muscle, bone and organs. Sectional density and adequate impact velocity to get the projectile through the above mentioned is what does the damage. Yes, ultimately (from a Quantum Physics perspective) it's energy, but the comparison with the baseball isn't a good comparsion since the baseball (which would put you down temporarily) will not penetrate your skin: too much surface area.
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Old May 20, 2008, 06:59 AM   #62
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Chui, you're right. A bullet concentrates the energy onto a much smaller area; hence it penetrates and does its damage. I used the analogy to hopefully help people understand that handguns are not all we want to think they are. And they are very useful, as long as we remain aware of their limitations.
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Old May 20, 2008, 06:23 PM   #63
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Decide which gun you need. This should be the one you shoot well, that holds a reasonable amount of ammo (you decide what's reasonable) and has a reasonable chance of firing bullets that will penetrate adequately and expand reliably (you define reasonable, adequately and reliably).

Then carry the dang gun. Get a good belt. Get a good holster.

Dress around the gun. Quit wearing the tight tank tops - get a looser fitting patterned shirt.

Quit looking for the "magic solution." You know .......the tiny piece of crap that drops in your shirt pocket. The one that you rationalize carrying by saying you can't conceal a Glock 19 in hot weather. The one you carry 'cause you've been told it will take care oof 90% of the potential threats you my face.

Carry the gun that you're gonna wish you had.

If I can wear a G19 OWB in south Louisiana, year round, all day, every day.......you can too.
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Old May 20, 2008, 06:53 PM   #64
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Hear, hear, sirrah, hear, hear!! Well said, Dawg23!

"Carry the gun you're gonna wish you had"

That 120mm tank gun loaded with beehive will be kinda hard to cover with my shirt, so I'll continue to be happy with the PF-9 in my pant pocket. Ain't choice grand?
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Old May 21, 2008, 07:52 AM   #65
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Shep, Can't hide a 120MM on my body. Can't even hide my AR which is the gun I wish I had in an armed confrontation. Of the guns I can conceal on my person I carry the one I would be wishing for in a confrontation.

Dawg23 sums up my position in a much more articulate way than I could have ever done. If you disagree thats fine carry your mousegun. However to poke fun at his position, especially with that silly comment is crazy.
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Old May 21, 2008, 08:08 AM   #66
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Threegun, I too am in full agreement with Dawg23's statement, and fully respect each person's choice (even to NOT carry, if they choose). I also believe, though, that we can take issues too seriously, and loose needed perspective. I was poking just as much fun at myself as at anyone else. Like I said, "Ain't choice grand?"

My choice was based on my evaluation of my own situation. Your choice is your own, and is just as good as mine. I most sincerely hope none of us EVER have to put our individual choice to the test of actual combat.
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Old May 21, 2008, 09:41 AM   #67
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Shep, Agreed.

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I most sincerely hope none of us EVER have to put our individual choice to the test of actual combat.
My litmus tests for what carry gun is right for me is potentially having to actually fight with the gun. Thats why I won't carry a mouse unless bigger is not possible.
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Old May 21, 2008, 10:15 AM   #68
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My litmus tests for what carry gun is right for me is potentially having to actually fight with the gun. Thats why I won't carry a mouse unless bigger is not possible.
exactly... unless a bigger one is not possible. Some of you prefer uneven jogging with hip or nerve problems from a big gun. some of us prefer a comfortable and relaxing jog without the weight of a heavy chunk of steel itching to rust from sweat. thats the beauty of a small low cost gun... its light, takes less volume, and is cheap/mostly plastic.

A dog doesnt have to be shot and killed if it chases you. A water bottle with ammonia will likely deter a dog.

To me a mouse or snub is for 2 legged targets at close distance and not much good elsewhere. Yes, a service will do the job.... but a 380 wont break skin and bone at <21 feet? I mean, arent most gang/mafia shootings done with mouse guns or 22s? I have known some unsavory types and the only guns they have ever fired were .32 or less.
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Old May 21, 2008, 11:00 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by primlantah
I have known some unsavory types and the only guns they have ever fired were .32 or less.
At the end of the day, don't you guys really feel that there are "horses for courses"?

"Unsavory types." If I was shooting for money, I'd take my Ruger 22/45 anytime. I've probably fired that pistol more than any other gun I have ever used. I don't think I could miss.

If I was in an IPSC style match utilizing scoring by maximum or minimum calibers, I'd use a Tussey pistol. Those are built to that kind of spec.

Varmint shooting? I have a flat-top with a Shilen barrel.

And truth be told, sometimes if I hear a bump in the night, I take a knife--and I leave the lights off.

But I feel I have to address the OP in somewhat of a traditional manner for the purposes of the thread. To that end, I'd carry a CZ 83. I could sweat on it, drop it, fend off dogs, take on multiple aggressors and not feel a pang when the arresting officer took it as evidence.

I even have a nice comfortable Bianchi holster for it that dates from the late 1970's.
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Old May 21, 2008, 11:25 AM   #70
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I would rather not carry at all than carry a pistol that weighed more than a few ounces. I tried running with my keltec 9mm and it's too uncomfortable. On top of that, I don't see how you can conceal a pistol much bigger than a subcompact in comfortable running clothes when it's in the 90's.

It's not a matter of gut vs gun or not being able to handle the extra load. I ruck with a 60 pound pack about once a week. Running is different though. I have to take a PT test twice a year that counts towards promotion points and plays significantly in the selection for which soldiers get selected for schools. I want to be light and unencombered, and I would love to see how you do that with a .45, spare mag, back up pistol, cell phone, and collapsable baton. Lets be realistic, I've run thousands of miles over the years and the incident I related is the only time I was actually concerned I'd get bitten. A little .22 is plenty for a low scale threat like an over protective and excited dog and many would say even that is overkill.

I'm not saying that I doubt any of the members here that claim to work out while carrying large pistols, I just have never met anyone else in real life during my years as a soldier, collector, or cop that did.

I really think that a blank firing gun would scare off most dogs that are just satisfying their chase instinct and at worst would take a nip at your ankle. I choose not to get nipped and a little .22 served my purpose just fine.
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Old May 21, 2008, 12:19 PM   #71
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ISC, Ditch the spare mag, back up, and baton. Anyway I live in one of the most humid and hot state in the union.....Florida. I can and have jogged while armed with a mid and full sized combat pistols. It isn't hard although carrying a NAA mini revolver is easier. Your choice is to carry small and thats cool. You will only regret that decision if your NAA fails to protect you. Those odds are slim. I just prefer to remove as much regret as possible before an incident.
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Old May 21, 2008, 08:50 PM   #72
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And this fact changes our disagreement how.
It should hopefully clarify it. There are many factors that go into success in a gunfight. Evidence indicates that of those factors caliber is probably the least important. For you to suggest otherwise is a distortion.
Quote:
You never uttered the words....
So, just like I said, you made something up and then tried to accuse me of saying it. That is, at the least, dishonest. Furthermore it indicates (to me at least) that you cannot reasonably counter what was actually said, otherwise there would be no need to make the stuff up.
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...but you are clearly a mousegun fan.
Certainly. Just like I'm a big-bore fan, a full-size fighting gun fan, a medium-caliber fan, a carbine fan, and so on. I am a fan of whatever works. In most DGU situations a mousegun will do that. In other situations a loaded AR-15 with a Remington 870 in support might not be enough. Every carry decision is a compromise, even if it is choosing between a Glock 17 and a Glock 19.
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Not that its bad mind you just that you seem to allow stats to dictate your actions an awful lot.
They don't dictate near as much as they guide. And as I mentioned, we all do that. Some of us have more realistic understanding of the stats and what they mean, some have more information to more accurately do the analysis, and so on. I always find it interesting when people apparently advocate a course of action based on “let’s ignore the facts” and/or “the less I know the better.”
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Since both are unlikely statistically I asked you why do you carry yet feel caliber is not relevant. I think thats a fair question.
The lack of relevance is to your (apparent) failure to understand how one processes information. The statistical likelihood of an event occurring is not the sole (or even sometimes the primary) factor in the decision-making process.
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Now given the obvious weakness of a serious caliber in stopping a determined attacker, you still feel comfortable with a mouse? Thats my point.
Now, given the obvious weakness of a serious caliber in stopping a determined attacker, you still feel comfortable with a bigger caliber? That’s my point. Caliber just doesn’t make that much difference; everybody picks a point at which they compromise based on what they perceive as their risk is and how much it costs to relieve that risk to a certain level. If you want to carry a big gun and a major caliber go right ahead, but don’t think that somebody choosing a different point of compromise is going to be impaired in any significant way for the typical DGU.
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Old May 21, 2008, 08:56 PM   #73
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Carry the gun that you're gonna wish you had.
That's a very nice platitude, but one that simply does not work. You compromise on what you carry. As mentioned, I might wish I had an AR, or a shotgun, or a 6" .44 Magnum, depending on the fight. Wishes are nice, but they sometimes run head-on into the wall of reality. You choose to carry a Glock 19. I might argue that is a compromise over the Glock 17, or the Glock 21. I'll assume there is some reason you have made the choice to go with fewer rounds or smaller caliber. Fortunately our choices (compromises) rarely matter in DGU situations.

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Old May 21, 2008, 09:13 PM   #74
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JEESH, RUN AT A HIGH SCHOOL TRACKS AND LEAVE YOUR PISTOLS IN YOUR SAFES. KAPEESH???

I mean, if you weren't accosted yesterday or the day before or the year before that or the decade prior then it CAN'T happen tomorrow, right???

I will go to my grave believing that one should take the pistol that one shoots best (and, NO, I'm not speaking about a Ruger Mk II). If it's a 1911 or a M&P9 or a Glock 19 then for God's sake carry it. If you can't take a defensive pistol class and put 500 rounds through that one day course and you can't shoot 200 rounds at a sitting with it then... why have it? It's not likely that you/me/we will RISE to the occasion. I don't accept that. Not at all. No practice, no results. Little practice, poor results.

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A dog doesnt have to be shot and killed if it chases you. A water bottle with ammonia will likely deter a dog.
LIKELY is the operative word. I wouldn't bet my well being on "likely" and neither should you. And we're not talking about "chasing" you. We should be looking at worst case scenarios. How about being ATTACKED by a dog nearly your own size? An example: When I was a kid I bought myself what we called "a genuine article": a gamebred American Pit Bull Terrier. He weighed about 70 lbs grown but I usually kept him at about 62 lbs by running him on a treadmill and on the road since I ran track and enjoyed running and let's face it: who will try you?? Well our postman (a close friend of the family) was ill and the replacement worker was deathly afraid of dogs. My dog would always bark at the postman even though there was no ill intent. We had the postman give him a vanilla wafer that we kept on the window ledge. But if you don't know dogs and are afraid of them, well, it's all "aggression", right? Well, Nimrod the replacement postal worker pepper sprayed because he was barking at him at the fence. It's a damned good thing I was home because by the time I got outside he had broken through the wires of the chainlink fence large enough to get almost all of his shoulders through and he was trying mightily - to good effect - to get at the terrified postal employee. By the time I grabbed him by essentially "the waist" his shoulders were through... and there would have been HELL to pay had I not gotten there in time. There's no doubt in my mind what would have happened if 62 pounds of lean, motivated Pit Bull got his highly ****** off jaws on that guy. He wet himself. I wanted to beat the Hell out of him but instead called the police.

It may seem "extreme" but feces happens, fellas. You've no idea what's just around the corner and neither do I. But rest assured just as there are predatory humans in this world there are predatory dogs, too. And just because you've not been bitten (yet) does not mean that you'll finish your life without one.

Good "luck" (i.e., Luck = preparation meeting opportunity)
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Old May 22, 2008, 03:44 AM   #75
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LIKELY is the operative word. I wouldn't bet my well being on "likely" and neither should you.
But you do, whether one likes to admit it or not. Most of the time one is betting their well being on "likely". We drive to work because it is "likely" we won't get in a wreck. We go places on vacation because it is "likely" we will have a good time instead of getting mauled by a bear or drown in the lake or whatever. We carry a particular gun/caliber combination because we think it is "likely" to handle our needs.
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