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Old May 14, 2008, 11:36 AM   #26
David Armstrong
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bigger is always more lethal. bigger isnt always better.
Actually bigger is not always more lethal either, and as you said bigger is not always better. More importantly, better frequently doesn't matter. We all make compromises in what we carry, the only question becomes at what point do you feel the compromise works out best for you. One can argue about it all one wishes, but the facts are overwhelming--caliber rarely makes much difference in self-defence situations, and when it does make a difference it is still way down on the list of priorities. It is my experience that most people who feel they can't defend themselves with small calibers usually can't defend themselves very well with large calibers either.

Last edited by David Armstrong; May 14, 2008 at 05:55 PM.
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Old May 14, 2008, 04:34 PM   #27
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It is my experience that most people who feel they can't defend themselves with small calibers usually can't defend themselves very well with large calibers either.
I can defend myself with a variety of weapons from my fists to firearms. Still I want something bigger than a mouse. If I was in Africa armed with a 223 I would be happy to have that rifle if a lion was near. Still in the back of my mind I would be concerned that if the lion chose to attack, my 223 would fail to stop it before it hurt me. The mouse gun vs bigger is no different. You feel just as well armed with a mouse I don't. When you find yourself facing a determined attacker I believe you will rethink your strategy. We both may win or we both could lose. Only one of us will have left something on the table going in.
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Old May 14, 2008, 05:57 PM   #28
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To reiterate---if your success in a gunfight is based on the caliber you select, you've already gotten so many other problems that caliber is the least of your concerns.
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Old May 14, 2008, 05:57 PM   #29
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the phrase "mouse gun" sounds ridiculous to me. *** is that supposed to mean?
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Old May 14, 2008, 06:03 PM   #30
David Armstrong
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the phrase "mouse gun" sounds ridiculous to me. *** is that supposed to mean?
Actually it is rather ridiculous. It implies a gun that is only effective on mouse-sized opponents. Yet no one has ever been able to provide a shred of proof that bigger guns and calibers are better for the typical self defense situation than the smaller guns.
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Old May 14, 2008, 08:41 PM   #31
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the phrase "mouse gun" sounds ridiculous to me. *** is that supposed to mean?
Well, if a deer gun is for deer and a duck gun for duck, then a mouse gun is for mice. The only real problem there is that mouse guns are usually very bad for varmitting.

So what is a mouse gun? Mouse guns are small-sized guns, usually of very small calibers, usually .380 or .32 acp and below. They tend to be light weight, short barrelled, and have poorer or rudimentary sights, but not always. Sadly, many have pretty crappy triggers as well. With these factors combined, they tend to be more difficult to shoot well, even though some are fairly accurate and this is reflected when they are fired by a practiced shooter.

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Yet no one has ever been able to provide a shred of proof that bigger guns and calibers are better for the typical self defense situation than the smaller guns.
And just what evidence do you feel would prove this? So you are saying a Swiss Mini would be as good as a S&W 500 magnum revolver?
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Old May 14, 2008, 09:00 PM   #32
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If you look around you can find some very compact guns of decent caliber. The classic snubby revolver comes to mind. A good .38 Spl is nothing to be sneezed at. .32 magnum is another option. Nowadays, there are excellent 9x19 pistols in the size range of .380s. Kahr, Kel-Tec, Skyye and some others will give excellent service, if you do your part.

Personally, I carry a Kel-Tec PF-9. It drops right into my trouser pocket and is almost unnoticeable. A true all-the-time gun!
Shep854:

I agree with you. A small 9mm offers the best compromise in stopping power, firepower, and concealability. Going smaller really starts to impose some significant compromises.

I went with Kahr's smallest model, the PM9. Here it is next to a Smith & Wesson J-frame snub-nose:





And here it is in the middle, with a Walther PPS on the left, and a Kel-Tec PF-9 to the right. Any of these three guns would not be that much to carry, with the Walther being the biggest of the three:




.
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Old May 14, 2008, 09:21 PM   #33
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ISC said,

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Sometimes carrying a concealed weapon that shoots full size cartridge is just not possible. When you're in running shorts on a 5+mile run is one such time.
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I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Last summer I went on runs up to 9 miles in distance on a regular basis with my 38 caliber model 642. (snubby) I carried +p ammo in it. I kept it in a Galco fanny pack. No problem.
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Old May 14, 2008, 09:36 PM   #34
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.22... FWIW...My choice for the best survival caliber. If I could afford only one weapon and ammo it would be a .22 and a trunk full of ammo.

Definitely would carry a .22. Yes...very comforting. Will definitely take a Rottweiler...even if you have to shove it in it's rib cage while it is swinging off your weak arm.

Fast, accurate, deadly. Good for home defense. If the S ever did HTF, after the dust settles, we will probably use .22 as currency.

...but I still carry a .45 ACP.
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Old May 14, 2008, 09:40 PM   #35
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LanceOregon,

Thanks for posting those photos. When I determined that pocket carry was what worked best for me, I carried a snub. After I outshot myself with a Kahr, I went in search for one. The "additional flatness" and quick reload appealed to me. I couldn't find one, and went with a Kel-Tec P-11 that I could find. Finally, I checked out the PF-9, and after getting used to it's quirks, I am very pleased and comfortable with it.
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Old May 14, 2008, 10:27 PM   #36
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I agree with you about the "new Currency" being based on the .22 cartridge. I bought up a bunch of 500 rd boxes recently, on sale, and have been saving them back "in case". I plan to use them to buy 9mm and .45 ammo.
Just kidding, I have several .22's and they need feeding, too. But I personally want more oomph for self-defense.

Seriously though, I carry a .32 all the time, but don't really feel it's adequate in the worst case scenario I can imagine realistically happening. I carry at least a 9mm more and more often.
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Old May 14, 2008, 11:11 PM   #37
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Buy a box of .22 CCI mini-mags every time I go to the store for the 45 ACP. I am trying to weigh my safe down with them... My wife thinks that 100 rounds of WWB 45 ACP costs $36.00.

I like my 45, but just don't need much of them.

Since I can't have everything, best to have lots of .22, 12 ga., and 308.
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Old May 14, 2008, 11:32 PM   #38
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I agree with you about the "new Currency" being based on the .22 cartridge. I bought up a bunch of 500 rd boxes recently, on sale, and have been saving them back "in case". I plan to use them to buy 9mm and .45 ammo.
P.S. Now that's funny! Touche'
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Old May 15, 2008, 07:07 AM   #39
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I agree that small calibers are under rated.

A .22 in need is far better then a 50AE in car or at home. What I am trying to say is what I heard from my elders. The best weapon is whatever you can use. I can be something simple as a stick or advanced as whatever the newer gadget is out there these days.
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Old May 15, 2008, 07:22 AM   #40
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While I was rucking I carried an ax handle with me that I had taped a 1/2 inch pipe to.
Legal issues aside I'll take a 9 oz. blackjack over anything (bat, asp, even taser). Not a lot of reach, but lights out every time...you need a good aim and maybe even hold back a little to avoid fatal injury. The blows as seen in the film Heat would likely have been deadly.
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Old May 15, 2008, 12:05 PM   #41
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I agree that bigger is always better ... but when I take my dog for a walk in my rural peaceful Texas neighborhood in shorts and a t shirt, I'm not strapping on my .45. I slip a Taurus PT25 in my front pocket, 10 rds of .25 HP ... it won't stop an army, but it will deter most local animals ... an annoying whitetail during mating season or a stray coyote ... I'm in far more jeopardy at the mall, and I carry accordingly ..
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Old May 15, 2008, 05:28 PM   #42
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Stopping power roughly follows bore size. Roughly being the operative word as power is a combination of bore size, bullet weight, velocity, bullet construction, and most important, where the shot lands!

As Davis Spauling has wrote, in actual videotaped shootings you can see a definate difference in reaction between lower powered weapons and higher powered ones. The reaction is not huge, but there is a difference.

He also wrote that shot placement is more important than the bore size of the weapon. And that all goes back to Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas (Accuracy, Power, Speed). You balance all three.

As for the definition of mouse guns, well we all know farmers don't off mice with .45s or .357s. .22 short or such is used. And thus little guns in .22, .25, and to an extent .32s are 'mouseguns' as for the power they project.

The trouble with such small guns as .25s has to do with a) power, b) miniscule grips, c) lack of any realistic sighting system, d) poor triggers, and e) trigger guards (along with small grips) that make any speed presentation a real iffy thing. Their only advantage being you can hide it well, in fact very well, with little effort.
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Old May 15, 2008, 09:31 PM   #43
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A .22 in need is far better then a 50AE in car or at home.
This is one of the justification statements for not adequately being prepared, right? If you thought enough to bring along a pistol, then why did you pick the .22 and not the 50AE...or more realistically, a .380, 9mm, .40, .45, etc.?
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Old May 15, 2008, 09:50 PM   #44
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Again, there is no way that you can carry even a 9mm in PT shorts and a tank top (what I wear running in the summer here in Florida). That little .22 was even an inconvenience, anything with any weight will throw off your stride and make your shorts start to sag before you break a sweat. I liked the NAA because I could disassemble it after a run and wash the sweat off with HOT water and then reoil it.

I keep looking for another one, but they're like $250+ for one with a grip holster in .22 mag.
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Old May 16, 2008, 09:31 AM   #45
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+1 ISC

The last thing i want when going for a jog or checking the mail in 90+% humidity and 120 degree heat is an 11+1 45. Thats 0.5-1 pound of ammo plus gun weight all strapped to your side...no good.

the aluminum j-frames are nice but at 15oz empty i still dont want that in my pocket when my clothes start getting heavy from sweat.

I guess internet commandos work out in BDUs. I wear shorts and will usually end up losing the shirt. a gun belt just doesnt work here.
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Old May 16, 2008, 09:55 AM   #46
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If you are using the weapon solely for defense against dogs, a .22 is sufficent. A .22 lr hollow point to the head will dispatch just about any dog.
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Old May 16, 2008, 12:41 PM   #47
David Armstrong
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And just what evidence do you feel would prove this?
Just like I said--any proof that bigger guns and calibers are better for the typical self defense situation than the smaller guns. Given that mouse guns have been carried a lot over the years, and used a lot, if they were particualrly problematic we should have seen it. We haven't.
Quote:
So you are saying a Swiss Mini would be as good as a S&W 500 magnum revolver?
Perhaps. Bigger is not better, it is just bigger. A Toyota Corolla gets you to the grocery store jsut as good as a Toyota Camry. Both do the job. Defensive handguns are much the same. If the BG stops, having a bigger gun won't make the BG stop more.
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Old May 16, 2008, 12:47 PM   #48
David Armstrong
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This is one of the justification statements for not adequately being prepared, right? If you thought enough to bring along a pistol, then why did you pick the .22 and not the 50AE...or more realistically, a .380, 9mm, .40, .45, etc.?
That makes the assumption that the .22 is not adequate. As I so often like to point out, history gives us some pretty good examples to look at. The mousegun calibers have been fine for CCW-type self defense. It is always a compromise, and virtually any gun/caliber combo will be adequate for what we are discussing.
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Old May 16, 2008, 02:13 PM   #49
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It all comes down to personal choice now doesn't it?

If I was running in the heat I'd keep my fanny pack on and run with my S&W 642 revolver. I'm not totally without hot weather experience. I lived in Texas for 3 years and southern Ohio for 3 years as well. The day I couldn't run with my 38 in a fanny pack is the day I'd give up running. Would I run with any sized gun in my pocket? No.

MY lower limit for personal defense is 38 sp or 9mm. A lot of people agree with me. So what. If you are happy with a smaller gun in a lower caliber than I then more power to you. Carry the 22. Just don't try to tell me carrying a slightly larger gun in hot, humid weather isn't doable or that it will break my stride.
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Old May 16, 2008, 03:23 PM   #50
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I'm a proponent of overkill in some areas and I like my all steel 5" 1911 or my polymer full size M&P9 pretty much everywhere. I'm not jogging at the moment and I, too, am concerned about dogs, first, and pesky humans, second. Needless to say, running with a 1911 or topped off M&P9 is considerably hefty. What's a sensible guy to do?

Short Background

I am a dog person. I had gamebred Pit Bulls growing up and they are phenomenally stable around people and unexcelled as athletes. American Bulldogs are similar but more protective - and a lot bigger. Since I'm keenly familiar with them I'm also concerned about these (and any Molossid/Mastiff/Bulldog/Bulldog-Terrier breed). Iff (if and only if) the Rottie been seroius about "his business" he'd have had you. I keep the "worst case scenario" spinning around my noggin and a .22LR would only get a good bulldog's attention; essentially letting him know your intentions aren't good and you'd then find out that they give as well as they take. Therefore, the full-size service pistol affection.

May I suggest pepper spray and a good fixed blade (preferable, if legal) or spring-assisted opening knife (if legal). Bear with me because I'm brainstorming this.

I no longer run on the street due to me not having my old high school companion jogging at my side to deal pain to the dog that chooses to engage me so I:
  • Ride my mountain bike with either my M&P9 or M&P45 in tow and pepper spray and fighting folder in my offside pocket; or
  • Run at the local high school track.

I choose this because I KNOW firsthand what a dog can do and while they usually sense & shirk real danger it's not always the case - and they will whip you if they are determined to get you (assuming it's about 2/3rds your mass and an appropriate breed - Pit Bulls/Am Staffs/American Bulldogs (and the like) and any of their crosses don't require any size guidelines as they seem to deliver punishment by the buckets full and absorb punishment like the proverbial sponge.

And even if you win you're horribly disfigured with possible nerve damage because they WILL get a hold of you. A Rottie will tackle you and then deliver even worse damage than a Pit Bull since he's twice their size. Where I live large breeds are not uncommon and Pit Bull/Pit Bull crosses aren't that rare, either. But keep in mind that it doesn't require a Molosser to inflict horrible damage or death. ANY well-motivated dog can do you in - especially if you panic.

Yes, a .22 LR is better than a popsickle stick, but if you can ride a bicycle (not "as good as" biking, perhaps) or running at a track (very boring if you're interested in mileage). Both are better than jogging through neighborhoods.

Where I am there are coyotes (Ann Arbor) and I'd HATE to be the first adult to be tackled by "Wiley & Co." "It's just a mangy coyote!" Yeah, but I imagine that if they came for you it wouldn't be nice. So if I am running rural with a ruck I'd definitely have something (short cocabolo club) and a suitable blade and pepper spray. But my M&P with a spare magazine would be on my waist.

Comments?
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