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Old May 11, 2008, 11:52 PM   #1
ISC
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the gun you have vs the gun at home

Years ago while I was training for SFAS, I had a regimen of alternating ruck days with run days. While I was rucking I carried an ax handle with me that I had taped a 1/2 inch pipe to. I had talked to a bunch of the soldiers in my unit that had been selected and they said that during the STAR land nav course (approx 30 Km cross country with a 50+ lb ruck) and all candidates had to carry their weapons the whole time (no slings) andthen in team week they had to also carry all kinds of other crap (buckets full of water or sand, 5 gallon water jugs, team boxes, sand bags etc). I was glad to have something in my hands a couple times when I felt threatened by dogs that barked alot and looked like they were going to get loose out of their yards. I was doing 5 mile ruck marches in an hour 3 times a week down the country roads near my old house.

I was running 3- 8 miles and working out before running on the light days; I was really pushing myself so it left me pretty exhausted. Because of the threat of dogs I started carrying the NAA .22 revolver in a grip holster I used to have when I was running. I could carry it anywhere, even in swim trunks or running shorts. It was only good out to about 10 feet with anything resembling accuracy but it made me feel alot better when I was otherwise much less able to defend myself due to exhaustion while working out. My thought was that if nothing else, the noise of the shot would scare off an overly aggressive dog even if I didn't hit it.

I was glad I had it the time I came across a 100+ pound rottweiler that started chasing after me. I stopped running and he bowed up at me with his hackles raised barking like crazy. He actually had white slobber and I briefly wondered if it might be rabid. I'm sure he wasn't, but he was going nuts and I was in the middle of nowhere. I took out the revolver, opened it, and cocked it, thinking that there was no way that 5 .22 shots would stop him from getting in at least a few good bites if he was determined to attack me. He ended up backing down though, and I slowly backed away until he stopped following me.

I started replaying the situation in my head and I think that the fact that I was armed changed the dynamic. I've always heard that dogs can sense when you're afraid and once I had a weapon in my hand maybe he sensed a difference in me and that was part of what made him lose interest.

Anyhow, I think that it's better to be underarmed than unarmed, and that little .22 was just right for the purpose I used it for. I always called it a good gun to bring to a knife fight.
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Old May 12, 2008, 10:29 AM   #2
primlantah
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+1. I think too many people have underestimated the value of small calibers. Yes, the big bore is a safe bet... but ill take a small bore over no bore any day.

I either sprained my hand or cracked my schaphoid in my strong hand when there was an armed guy running from the cops in my apartment complex. my 45 would have punished the crap out of both of us if he broke into my unit... the 22 would have only punished him. Yes, its a small bullet and not very powerful...but i have shot thousands more rounds(2 hand and 1 hand strong and weak side) through my ruger mk3 than any other pistol. those well placed buggers will work just fine. I didn't feel undergunned at all...
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Old May 12, 2008, 11:09 AM   #3
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Agreed. Mouse guns and minor calibers don't get much respect, but when it comes right down to it, they will probably take care of 95%+ of everything the CCW holder will get involved with.

Last edited by David Armstrong; May 12, 2008 at 03:37 PM.
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Old May 12, 2008, 12:40 PM   #4
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I lived near a farm where people were always selling various melons at roadside stands and if you caught them at the right time they would send you home with half a truckload for $20 rather than find a place to dump them. I have shot more melons of human head size with a 10-22 and Buckmark pistol than most people and got pretty good at it. We would roll them accross the ground and swing them from strings while seeing how many rounds we could put in them and I could always make multiple hits wirh a .22 but was lucky to hit one with the first or second shot with a 9mm or .45.

A few years later I got my own place in a not so nice neighborhood and always felt safe with nothing but a loaded 10-22 by my bed. 11 CCI Stingers in the head weather moving or not will stop you, I don't care who or what you are. Little bullets work just fine when you can put them where it counts.
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Old May 12, 2008, 12:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
I've always heard that dogs can sense when you're afraid and once I had a weapon in my hand maybe he sensed a difference in me and that was part of what made him lose interest.
Interesting. I was hiking once in forest when I sat down at at the bottom of a hill. At the top of the hill appeared a German Shepherd who barked then ran down toward me. I was open carrying a 1911 .45 in a side holster, I drew, cocked and leveled it at the dog's head. He stopped instantly and ran back up the hill, that animal was more sensible than most humans.
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Old May 12, 2008, 01:00 PM   #6
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Back in 1980 I was accosted by two very large fellows that wanted to discuss my continued progress down the street. I put my hand on a High Standard .22 derringer that was IWB. They let me pass.
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Old May 12, 2008, 03:27 PM   #7
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small bore

I carried a .22 Beretta for a few yrs. I never felt underarmed. Hits with a .22 are better than misses with a .45
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Old May 12, 2008, 03:36 PM   #8
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I'll take the .45!
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Old May 12, 2008, 04:33 PM   #9
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Mouse guns and minor calibers don't get much respect, but when it comes right down to it, they will probably take care of 95%+ of everything the CCW holder will get involved with.
Mr. Murphy will see to it that I get that other 5 percent.

I'm in the larger is better club. Mouseguns are backups or when its impossible to carry bigger. Not convienient but impossible to carry bigger.

Quote:
Hits with a .22 are better than misses with a .45
And hits with the 45 are better than identically located hits with the 22.


Most folks can shoot most fighting calibers well enough to get center mass hits with minimal practice. If one were to spend the same time shooting the bigger bored guns as they spent shooting mouse calibered guns they would more than likely shoot that gun just as well.............unless physical handicaps are present.
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Old May 12, 2008, 07:19 PM   #10
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Sometimes carrying a concealed weapon that shoots full size cartridge is just not possible. When you're in running shorts on a 5+mile run is one such time.
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Old May 13, 2008, 01:34 AM   #11
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i will agree that any gun is better than no gun, but given the chance, ill take a larger caliber any day over a smaller caliber. i trust a .45 to do a better job than a .22.....assuming i do mine.
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Old May 13, 2008, 01:45 AM   #12
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Considering the gun I want is this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY6nm-6eCzM

I guess I'll have to compromise with something else.
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Old May 13, 2008, 04:28 AM   #13
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I was glad I had it the time I came across a 100+ pound rottweiler that started chasing after me. I stopped running and he bowed up at me with his hackles raised barking like crazy. He actually had white slobber and I briefly wondered if it might be rabid.
Very excited dogs froth at the mouth. I think too many kid's cartoons have frothy dogs as rabid and we assume froth = rabid. It doesn't just like being aggressive doesn't mean rabib but is also a part of being rabib in many cases.

Quote:
I started replaying the situation in my head and I think that the fact that I was armed changed the dynamic. I've always heard that dogs can sense when you're afraid and once I had a weapon in my hand maybe he sensed a difference in me and that was part of what made him lose interest.
Here, you are assuming that the psychic dog is only being aggressive because you were afraid and that you stopped being afraid when you pulled your mouse gun, yet from what you described, you were still pondering being bitten and so I would guess that you were still afraid. FYI, what they sense is adrenaline and it was still being emitted from you after drawing your gun.

I doubt the gun did anything but give you comfort. The dog had already stopped his approach before you pulled the gun. You simply stood your ground and while doing so, you pulled the gun.

Quote:
Anyhow, I think that it's better to be underarmed than unarmed, and that little .22 was just right for the purpose I used it for. I always called it a good gun to bring to a knife fight.
Yeah, underarmed is better than unarmed, no doubt, but the NAA mini is a "real man's gun" because once you fire all five rounds, assuming you have that much time, and hit your target, there is a good chance that will will then have to use it as a rock and beat your attacker because the shots (the ones that may hit) are not likely to produce any sort of immediate physiological stops and there is no way you are going to reload it for more shots. In many ways, a knife is going to be better than a NAA mini.
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Old May 13, 2008, 08:05 AM   #14
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I think that most dogs would be scared off just by the loud noise of a shot. I know it's only a .22, but dogs have sensative ears and most of them will hide or retreat from the sound alone unless they've been trained to ignore it. Granted, if the dog had been rabid then I would have been screwed, but I really didn't think that was the case. That thought did pass through my mind though.

I find it interesting how some will dismiss multiple shots from a .22, but give almost magical properties to a 12 ga. Think about this:

Five .22 bullets is about the same as a shell of 00 buck that had 1/2 of the shot that hit the target.

Quote:
Here, you are assuming that the psychic dog is only being aggressive because you were afraid and that you stopped being afraid when you pulled your mouse gun, yet from what you described, you were still pondering being bitten and so I would guess that you were still afraid. FYI, what they sense is adrenaline and it was still being emitted from you after drawing your gun.

I doubt the gun did anything but give you comfort. The dog had already stopped his approach before you pulled the gun. You simply stood your ground and while doing so, you pulled the gun.
He actually was barking, then walked a litle closer, then barked more, then walked closer, then barked more. He was advancing on me after I backed away, and I continued backing away after I pulled the pistol. He stopped advancing after I pointed it at him and then I walked around him on the other side of thr road, keeping my front to him.

I was pretty pumped up though, . I was about 3 1/2 miles into the run and feeling good. Lots of endorphins and adreneline just from the workout alone. I suspect that he was more motivated by a chase instinct than anything else, and he was probably between me and his driveway. I'm guessing that he had just gotten loose and was usually confined to a house or chain because I had never seen him before like I do alot of other dogs that chase me on the other side of their fence when I run next to it.
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Old May 13, 2008, 09:14 AM   #15
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bigger is better club,

Just to clear one thing up... my favorite gun to shoot and carry is a 45. With that said, I don't think anyone in this thread is suggesting a .22 is better than a .45. I think were saying a .22 will do the job when a .45 isn't possible or practical. A 45 is always more likely to stop quickly but when physical disability or lack of practicality rule out the bigger guns a well maintained 22, with practice and confidence, can be effective.
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Old May 13, 2008, 11:36 AM   #16
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Sometimes carrying a concealed weapon that shoots full size cartridge is just not possible. When you're in running shorts on a 5+mile run is one such time.
change shorts and carry bigger..............if the running shorts are mandatory then its not possible.


Quote:
I find it interesting how some will dismiss multiple shots from a .22, but give almost magical properties to a 12 ga. Think about this:

Five .22 bullets is about the same as a shell of 00 buck that had 1/2 of the shot that hit the target.
ISC, You must understand your gun. A 22lr from a NAA mini revolver with a sub 2 inch barrel will penetrate way less than the when shot from a rifle. In fact a beretta jetfire in 22 short out penetrated my NAA 22 MAGNUM by double. My 22short penetrated only 13 pieces of thin cardboard compared to 7 from the NAA in 22mag. My Ruger 10-22 rifle passed thru all 30 pieces and the bullet is still at large.

Next you have to factor in your misses and the time it will take you to get 5 shots off with the NAA. You assume that the shotty will only get half its payload on target yet the far less likely of the 2 to hit the target gets 100 percent hits. BTW at distances less than 5 yards buckshot from every shotgun I own holds a fist sized pattern or less.

Your NAA served you well against the dog. What would worry me is the large mean dog that forces me to shoot and the ability of my defense gun to stop that attack. From what I have seen from my NAA revolvers tells me no they won't......unless the dog gives up. I believe that it would be all but impossible to MAKE the dog give up. I would rather use my Puma knife against a dog that wont give up.

I don't mean to second guess your victory against the dog. You won so who are we to talk. I'm just giving you fuel for thought for what could have been.
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Old May 13, 2008, 12:03 PM   #17
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A kel-tec P3AT or Ruger LCP in a Smartcarry setup can be concealed comfortably and securely in running shorts.
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Old May 13, 2008, 12:14 PM   #18
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I think that even a blank firing pistol would be an asset against most threatening dogs. They really don't like loud noises. Hell, I've scared them off just pretending to reach down onto the ground as if I was picking up a rock to throw at them. Maybe just seeing something in my hand was enough to get the response he showed.

Three gun, your right about the limited potential for an accurate high volume of fire from that little revolver, I do think that if he had gotten to knife fighting range that a .22 fired into his ear canal would have been more effective than a knife.
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Old May 13, 2008, 03:24 PM   #19
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ISC,

Quote:
I do think that if he had gotten to knife fighting range that a .22 fired into his ear canal would have been more effective than a knife.
I agree however getting that precise shot on a moving and biting target is the problem. Then you have entry angles. At that range you are going to be bit more than likely just like with the knife. If a charged up deer can run hundreds of yards after being heart shot by a 30-06 how much damage can a large vicious dog do in the time it takes him bleed out from 22 caliber holes.

Just think about it. Small caliber handgun bullets are slow and light. They lack penetration, the ability to create a large wound channel, and the ability to smash through bone to reach the vitals. They are much more likely to be deflected by the skull and bones.

That leave its users to hope for the perfect shot or the target giving up.
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Old May 13, 2008, 03:44 PM   #20
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i guess by 3guns advice we should all carry 50bmg 24/7.

just joking with you. you are right. bigger is always more lethal. bigger isnt always better.
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Old May 13, 2008, 05:18 PM   #21
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Isn't more lethal always better when trying to stop a violent attack

Hey I still own a few mice. The only one I rely on occassionally is the Kel-Tec p-32.
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Old May 13, 2008, 07:59 PM   #22
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If you look around you can find some very compact guns of decent caliber. The classic snubby revolver comes to mind. A good .38 Spl is nothing to be sneezed at. .32 magnum is another option. Nowadays, there are excellent 9x19 pistols in the size range of .380s. Kahr, Kel-Tec, Skyye and some others will give excellent service, if you do your part.

Personally, I carry a Kel-Tec PF-9. It drops right into my trouser pocket and is almost unnoticeable. A true all-the-time gun!
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Old May 13, 2008, 09:43 PM   #23
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Let's see. My carry guns are Glock 27 with Winchester T series 155s and Smith J with DPX .38s. The house guns? Same guns!

So that settles that.
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Old May 14, 2008, 06:21 AM   #24
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Quote:
He actually was barking, then walked a litle closer, then barked more, then walked closer, then barked more. He was advancing on me after I backed away, and I continued backing away after I pulled the pistol. He stopped advancing after I pointed it at him and then I walked around him on the other side of thr road, keeping my front to him.
After reading your additional description, it sounds like you stared down a country driveway dog, nothing more. This is something paperboys and letter carriers end up doing a lot. You didn't need a gun to do it.

Quote:
Five .22 bullets is about the same as a shell of 00 buck that had 1/2 of the shot that hit the target.
No.

Let's see, 5 .22 caliber bullets traveling at roughly 650 fps would never perform as well as 5 pellets of .33 caliber 00 buckshot traveling at roughly 1300 fps.

I do like your optimism however. You are assuming you are going to hit with all 5 shots of a .22 lr mini revolver that is single action and has a crappy trigger and sights that are equally crappy and you are going to hit a relatively small, quick moving target. Wow. I doubt it given that folks have trouble hitting stationary or much more slowly moving larger human targets under stress.
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Old May 14, 2008, 07:40 AM   #25
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Well, all I have to say is that being chased by a huge rottweiler is scary. Not the most scary thing I ever experienced by any stretch of the imagination, but scary enough that I was glad I had something that couold bite back in my hand.

I've only been seriously (drew blood) bit once, and that was by a Chow chased me on my bike then bit my calf when I was about 14. I kicked him in the face and rode away faster. The rotty could have done alot more than a few puncture wounds and a tear.
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