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Old May 11, 2008, 10:24 PM   #26
JP Sarte
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Maybe some people are immune to its charms, but when I got sprayed at the academy it felt like someone tossed a bucket of lit gasoline in my face. The effects lasted for hours.

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Old May 12, 2008, 11:26 AM   #27
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There is also a LE version that is effective out to 20 feet and delivers the OC at 270 mph.
That is the JPX if I am not mistaken and it is sold OTC in Illinois ( Do not know the laws in other states )

I found that about 15 feet was a more realistic range estimate for it.

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Old May 12, 2008, 11:38 AM   #28
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In my experience OC has worked every time, stats say it won't but I am willing to bet on the 99% effective. CS or tear gas I would take ten times before getting hit with OC. Hate the stuff, have no desire to get hit with OC again.
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Old May 14, 2008, 07:40 AM   #29
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Fox labs is best. I carry the full line of Fox labs, Sabre, Mace and others. Check the link in my signature.
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Old May 14, 2008, 11:17 AM   #30
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Fox labs is best. I carry the full line of Fox labs, Sabre, Mace and others. Check the link in my signature.
Dead link.
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Old May 14, 2008, 11:27 AM   #31
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There is only ONE purpose for pepper spray in the civillian sector and that is; to subdue your attacker long enough for you to escape. Once, my Weimaraner jumped the fence and attacked our mailman. He nailed her right in the face with pepper spray and all it did was tick-her-off even worse! She ran right through it. I have also heard stories of people jacked-up on amphetamines not being phased by pepper spray. Myself, I would never depend on it 100% in a self-defense situation. A taser or stun-gun would be my first choice for non-lethal defense.
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Old May 14, 2008, 05:57 PM   #32
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Spray on an animal is NOT the cureall, it might discourage an animals attack, or delay it, just be ready to use another form of defense. I have sprayed a pitbull that just sneezed it off in a matter of seconds. And depending on what type of coat the animal has, the spray might not even be useful.

I still laugh my butt off when my roommate tells the story of his exwifes dog that I sprayed, after I left, he called the dog in (dog was loose, and found its way back to what it felt was home), petted it for a few minutes, and then used the restroom. Took a few minutes for the residue to take effect, and then it took several hours and multiple showers for his junk to go back to normal temps!

When we got 'certified' at the bar to use spray, it was ingrained into us students that it will only buy you a little bit of time to control the person(s) and subdue them. We were sprayed and were able to wash it off within a minute, those we did spray in the course of our work however, would wind up in handcuffs and unable to wash for quite some time.

Some have suggested the stream versus the fog output, keep in mind the stream requires more accuracy in the one deploying it, the fog output has an 'area affect', meaning you dont have to exactly get it right in their face.
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Old May 14, 2008, 07:59 PM   #33
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Hmmmm.... I'm confused. Why would a private citizen ever choose a chemical spray over a 9mm or 45 ACP?

If my wife were being attacked and feared imminent death, serious bodily injury, or sexual assault, I would want her to use deadly force.

If I were being attacked and feared imminent death or serious bodily injury I would choose deadly force.

If I were being attacked by a 50-100 pound, cute fuzzy ball of teeth, jaws, muscle, and claws, I would choose deadly force (too bad we can't carry a 12 ga.).

If I were being accosted, harrassed, coerced, or a victim of simple assault, I would use traditional methods of self defense like either overpowering the aggressor or running away. If I were attacked by a small dog I would kick it, of course if it latched its little teeth onto my leg (depending on it's size) I might then have to shoot it.

Seems like if I used a chemical spray, that would be considered escalating the altercation, and at the very least I could expect to be sprayed back; or sued; or attacked with greater vigor creating a more dangerous situation.

I don't see it. I thought I had this CCW thing figured out.

I always see folks walking around with sticks. I wish I could tell them...if you feel like you need a self defense weapon (and I can understand that), you should get a much better one... in a larger caliber... especially since you live in a state that will issue a CCW permit. You should sign up, get on board, support our 2nd amendment rights and carry an effective self defense weapon.

I thought sprays and tazers (sp?) were to assist LE in subduing non-leathal suspects resisting arrest...
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Old May 14, 2008, 08:05 PM   #34
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Deleted double post.

Last edited by TripIII; May 14, 2008 at 10:47 PM. Reason: cause I can't figure out how to delete a post
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Old May 14, 2008, 08:45 PM   #35
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I don't consider it an option for my wife. She has allerigies that can practically lock up her lungs on a bad day and I would be afraid that any blowback from pepper spray would incapacitate her worse than her attacker. Also it would not be practical for one of her possible scenarios; someone hiding inside her car in the dark when she gets off work.
Velobard:


Get her a taser. They have them available in pink now for women. The latest color for ladies is now an attractive leopard skin:





My niece is now a widow living on her own, with two boys. She was not at all comfortable with firearms. And it is virtually impossible to get a CCW permit in California anyway. However, she can legally take her Taser to virtually anywhere in California, except to a school or government building.

I got her the pink model. Here is a photo of the package before I wrapped it up to be her present last Christmas:





Just buy her a few extra cartridges so she can fire it a few times to familiarize herself with it. A great training DVD ships with the Taser. Be sure to get her the model with the laser sight. It only costs $50 more, so it is well worth it. The laser makes aiming the weapon far, far more accurate and easy to do.

I never go anywhere ( except to the Post Office ) without my Taser.




.

Last edited by LanceOregon; May 14, 2008 at 08:47 PM. Reason: typo
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Old May 14, 2008, 10:26 PM   #36
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The great advantage of pepper spray is that it's cheap and doesn't cause any damage. This means someone like your wife or girlfriend is much more likely not to hesitate, and will use it before it's too late. All tough-guy talk aside, most people have a tough time shooting a person and WILL hesitate, often because a lot of assault scenarios are not real clear cut until you're rolling around on the ground or have a knife pressed against your belly. A brandished gun is not necessarily going to stop things, either.
This is the thing that scares me the most about self defense...Is that I will hesitate and it will cost me my life. I am pretty sure that If faced with a threat of any kind (leathal or not)... I will hesitate. It is my nature (for better or worse). The last thing I want to do is hurt anyone. I just can't make the mental leap that the person who approaches and asks for money means to rob and kill me. I just think they want some change. But if I survive my initial hesitation, and I have to make a deliberate decision to draw/use a weapon while I am on my a** or in any other compromised position I would rather come up smoking than spraying. I just can't see the need for spray.

Last edited by TripIII; May 14, 2008 at 10:45 PM. Reason: add confused face
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Old May 14, 2008, 10:33 PM   #37
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Sorry about the double post. Not sure how that happened.
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Old May 14, 2008, 11:04 PM   #38
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I think Mas Ayoob was credited with the quote "When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." The pepper spray is just another tool for the toolbox. Sometimes you run into situations which just aren't clear cut. I have experienced, as have a number of LEO's I have worked with from various agencies, bad guys who would look at a drawn weapon and tell you "go ahead, shoot me," knowing full well that we wouldn't shoot an unarmed individual. Sure, they always tell us in legal training that you can shoot in such a situation if you can articulate reasonable fear, like the bad guy is going to try a weapon snatch, but I have yet to see a LEO pull the trigger like that. What happens is you're stuck: if you shoot, you could end up unemployed and/or in jail. Pepper spray is just what you want (Tazers would be great, too.). Otherwise, you holster up and the fight is on.
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Old May 14, 2008, 11:04 PM   #39
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TripIII,

Pepper spray basically just gives you another option for when lethal force is not appropriate, but some level of force is.

In slowly-developing situations, it can be used considerably sooner than a firearm can.

In ambiguous situations, it may allow the defender to act decisively sooner than he or she otherwise would.

For those who have moral or ethical doubts about using lethal force, pepper spray is one of the few non-lethal defensive options which allows the defender to protect him- or herself from a distance, to stay out of arm's reach from the attacker but still deter the criminal and escape.

Finally: Why would you want to kill someone if you could survive the encounter unscathed without killing them?

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Old May 15, 2008, 10:08 PM   #40
Dusty Rivers
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different OC sprays

What is the difference between mace 10% OC and the mace canine spray. They both appear to be the same size, but the canine spray doesn't list the % OC on their web site.

I'm shocked at the number of posts about using your gun is the first and last and only choice. The lone purpose is to defuse the situation/confrontation. Words work great, such as I'm sorry, my mistake, etc. Next is to keep moving around. Don't plant your feet and let the other party get a bead on you. then show OC spray, then threaten to use OC, then use OC, then draw and show gun, then do what is necessary. Not always in that order, not always any or all of these choices.

A hundred different situations create many choices of escalation and deescalation. Like someone else posted it is a tool that can be used when appropriate and time/circumstances allow. If you squirt the dog 12 feet from you, He may not get to 10 feet from you. If he does you escalate your response. If he is charging a hundred miles an hour, at 12 feet you need a stiffer response than OC. The point is the more options we have the less we will need lethal force. The force of last resort.

Responding to some other posts as well -What the heck is wrong with showing your gun if it keeps you from having to actually shoot someone. I would rather be explaining to the law why i had to scare someone off rather than explaining why I felt legally correct to discharge lethal force. It is all about escalation of response as necessary. We all have a moral, if not legal duty to mitigate the force necessary. OC spray next to my extra magazine gives me an opportunity to do, situation permitting. I may be a samurai, but I do not have to bloody my sword every time I need to draw it.
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Old May 16, 2008, 11:32 AM   #41
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Seems like if I used a chemical spray, that would be considered escalating the altercation, and at the very least I could expect to be sprayed back; or sued; or attacked with greater vigor creating a more dangerous situation.
Nonsense. Ask a local LEO for advice, and then contact your local DA to see how often charges of assault are brought against someone who has used spray in self defense.
Quote:
This is the thing that scares me the most about self defense...Is that I will hesitate and it will cost me my life. I am pretty sure that If faced with a threat of any kind (leathal or not)... I will hesitate. It is my nature (for better or worse). The last thing I want to do is hurt anyone. I just can't make the mental leap that the person who approaches and asks for money means to rob and kill me. I just think they want some change. But if I survive my initial hesitation, and I have to make a deliberate decision to draw/use a weapon while I am on my a** or in any other compromised position I would rather come up smoking than spraying. I just can't see the need for spray.
Based on the above paragraph, I would say that you need to do a lot more soul searching on the value of human life (yours, your loved ones, and even those who would do you harm) before carrying a firearm. It sounds like you know what the law says, but its the laws of your conscience that you have not yet resolved. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but it is the most important part of conditioning your mind to defend your life. Yes, there is a good chance that if and when you do have to use your firearm to defend yourself you will take someones life. Someones child, brother, spouse, best friend. And it might be over something trivial that they have initiated a deadly threat over. Maybe a couple bucks from your pocket, maybe your vehicle.

Having a respect for all human life is a good thing. That is what seperates us from the predators out there preying on the weak. I feel it is my duty to defend life from those who do not respect life. With that said, I don't believe I would hesitate, but I'll never know until it happens. My mindset however, is not preset to confuse my conscience before it even happens.
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Old May 16, 2008, 03:29 PM   #42
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Excellent post, 'spiff.

Despite what some might thing it ain't about blood-lust, it ain't about itching for a "good shoot." It is about being resolved in your own mind if and when you would use lethal force upon another human being to protect yourself and loved ones. To paraphrase, he who hesitates is dead.
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Old May 16, 2008, 03:53 PM   #43
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You guys are missing the most important part: Pepper spray is GREAT if you've got a pot of chili that you need to season, FAST! (kidding...)

Pepper spray is nothing more than a device for disbursing a caustic chemical. That's it. It is not "only good for one thing..." as MOST people on this thread have stated. (Although, noone can seem to agree what that "one thing" is...) It's good for MANY things. It can cause pain, it can cause blindness, it can cause shortness of breath, and certain models even include a paint-like marker to identify what's been sprayed.

The flip-side to this point is the distinction between whether a gun is "only good for killing human beings." There is SO much more that you can do with a gun! You can hunt, target shoot, shoot to wound, shoot to disrupt little steel plates, etc... If a gun is "only one" thing, then it is simply a device for propelling a bullet at a high rate of speed.

My point? My point... I guess what I'm trying to say is that, once you start attributing "only one thing" that a particular weapon is good for, you start assigning a connotative value (emotion) to that weapon. Certain weapons can be seen as "good," or "evil," or "merciful," or "harsh," based on the mischaracterization of their function.

So, everyone remember, you CAN drive a nail with a can of pepper spray...
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Old May 16, 2008, 05:38 PM   #44
flyby
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Some Good General Info on... (Police Forums are a good to check for info also)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHqK-...eature=related
http://ezinearticles.com/?Will-Peppe...-Me?&id=631380
http://www.pepper-spray-store.com/re...training.shtml

Some willing subjects
(caution some cursing in the following vids..be warned!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqWE-kBpyiI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcqWdgZHik0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMJgSuaEOPk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Lmq_...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJn1Fu6pHlQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBZoNyi8SXA
1 1/2 hours after a police OC qualification...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkqlh...eature=related

Bottom Line..Pepper Spray Works, seen it! ..also tested and carried it when I worked and commuted off hours in NYC (where CC was a no-no) is also good to remember to do some side stepping footwork in an SD situation, after all..you are fighting ..and preferably oriented Upwind (if very windy)

Buying Quality is imperative with OC..otherwise your more than likely just getting ineffective Junk (the best sprays often have to be ordered, as opposed to off-brands bought at Walmart) ..the difference in effect between sprays can be what one might perceive as getting sprayed with Battery acid vs getting sprayed with taco sauce. ..Foggers and Cone pattern units are generally more effective (also on animals) in that they have greater respiratory effects and you can leave lingering clouds behind you while fleeing ..is also better for multiple attackers, But is more susceptible to the wind vs the Stream units.

FOX Labs has become a standard ..even at 2% they've figured a way to refine and amplify the effects well beyond that of higher percent sprays and takes effect quicker as well.
http://www.defensedevices.com/worhotpepspr.html
http://www.defensedevices.com/freeze...per-spray.html
http://www.guardian-self-defense.com...%20Fox...2.pdf

The Original Mace® Brand(MSI) products are also quality products and are probably the best bet for the smallest size units like their 1/2oz(11-18 gram)sized flip-tops(easier,safer and sturdier than the spin-tops) http://www.macebrand.com/ ..never cared much for Sabre' but their new triple-action red formula is said to be good.
Haven't carried OC in sometime, but do agree its good to have a non-lethal alternative.
Just bought a 2.oz FOX-5.3 flip-top cone unit that I'll be carrying from now on.
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Old May 16, 2008, 05:50 PM   #45
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I just taped a training video on the topic for the PDV DVD Series... it will be released later this year. In going through the content preparation, I had to think about an analyze OC more than I had in years. When I was in LE, I hated the stuff, because (as noted previsously) it doesn't always (often....??) make the subject stop trying to fight/struggle/resist and in LE we HAD to control the subject after the spraying, which meant that we were going to get contaminated/irritated. not good.

In a Self Defense situation, you don't have that concern, so it is a more viable option. But, you absolutely NEED to practice deploying it. We taped an actual subject getting sprayed during a mock attack and our actress had quite a hard time getting the mechanics of getting the keychain out of her purse, orienting it properly, disabling the safety (rotating the button..) and the hitting the roleplayer in the face. We had her try at least 5 times with an inert spray first. While it may be stressful to have a couple HD video cameras in your face, it is nothing like being attacked by a would be rapist wielding a knife. Unfortunately, most companies do not offer inert training units to civilians. It is certainly worth buying two cans and using one for practice, however (just do it in a well ventilated area! ).

Be aware of what you are carrying and find out what the numbers mean. There are a lot of ways to twist the numbers on the labels. There is no regulation on the way the manufacturers come up with some of the numbers.. in fact, only the sprays designed/advertised to stop bears have an industry standard (it is higher than recommended for people). Also, be aware of the "inert" agents in the mix. Some of them are flammable.

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Old May 17, 2008, 08:32 AM   #46
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I just wonder why I should risk the failure of a pepper spray when I am already being attacked at short-range and carry a handgun. If it's to close, I have to use my hand-to-hand skills anyway because drawing any tool would take to long. If I can draw only one tool in the little time I have left it sure will be my handgun. I don't have to take chances under attack.
It has to do with the use of force necessary to end the situation. If you run across someone like say a violent drunk, you may not be justified in using deadly force in that situation without getting into trouble with the law. By the same token, hand-to-hand skills against someone bigger, stronger or better than you may also prove to be not enough force to end the situation. Maybe you can deploy it in time, maybe not. Maybe your hand-to-hand skills are going to be enough, maybe not. Maybe a firearm is needed at times, maybe not. I think of OC as another tool that is compact, lightweight, and easy to carry that adds another level of defense I have an OPTION to use.
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Old May 18, 2008, 03:11 AM   #47
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I carry the 10 Mace gel. Now, for animals, would a bear repellent be stronger, and work better on animals????

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Old May 18, 2008, 04:43 AM   #48
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There is now a new model Taser that has a video camera on it. With it, you can actually record your shooting so that you have evidence of exactly what went down.

Check this video out:

http://www.livevideo.com/video/287CC...ef-gettin.aspx

.
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Old May 18, 2008, 05:05 AM   #49
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Anybody in Alaska have a preferred bear spray? UDAP? etc.
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Old May 20, 2008, 11:06 AM   #50
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So where do batons come into play? I'm looking at a place near me that has a certification for baton use, and it intrigues me.
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