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Old May 13, 2008, 09:54 AM   #26
Unclenick
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We don't usually think of water as a lubricant, but it is. Poor film strength, but if you've ever slipped on a wet Linoleum floor, you know it does provide some sliding.
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Old May 14, 2008, 10:18 AM   #27
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Slamfire1, I would not expect the tapping lubes to work well. Those and other cutting fluids are not designed to maintain unbroken lubricating films under high pressure. Run down to Wally World and spend a buck and a half on a bottle of STP to get a good strong film lubricant. Mix it half and half with chainsaw bar chain oil to get better cling. For less odor, mix the STP with a way oil for lathe and milling machine beds, like Mobile Vactra #2.
Thanks, I may do this. I know STP is slippery as heck. And I am glad to know about tapping lubes.

Know any good water soluble industrial lubes?
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Old May 14, 2008, 04:44 PM   #28
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"Know any good water soluble industrial lubes? "

Most, if not all are simply soaps of one sort or another.

The easiest to buy, and I know it works as a case sizing lube too, are the lubes for easing electrical cables through conduit. One brand is "GB". It is sold in the electrical parts sections of both Home Depot and Lowe's, it's a soft yellowish goo about the consistancy of mayonaise. It sells in plastic quart containers for maybe $10 the last time I got some.

Any hand soap with a high glycerin content will work too.

STP Oil Treatment is slippery enough for sure but it's a mess to work with and a pain to remove. It is, or at least once was, re-labeled and sold as a case lube by both RCBS and Lyman. NOT water soluble!

Imperial Die WaX is superior to them all.
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Old May 14, 2008, 05:47 PM   #29
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I hate RCBS 'goo' lube, but have used it all my life.

The only stuck cases I have ever had were cause by one of two things:

1. I was dumb and didn't lube it.
2. I was dumb and didn't lube it enough.


However, I clean my dies before and oil them after every session.

I'm new to using Imperial Sizing Wax, having just recently purchased some to form .35 Whelen brass.

I can attest to the fact that you don't need much of it, and again to the fact that you need to clean your dies on a regular basis. With just a miniscule film of wax on the cases, I had a substantial buildup in the die after only 20 cases.

And remember-
RCBS is biased. They want you to use their product. They might possibly inflate the facts, or omit truths to get what they want.
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Old May 15, 2008, 08:54 AM   #30
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I followed up on the GB lube idea, went to Surplus Rifles read the article, then went and did a web search.

I found this thread where a guy warned he had case and sizing die corrosion due to GB lube residue.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=154311

Quote:
GB Wire-Aide Corrosive?


GB Wire-Aide Wire Pulling Lube may be corrosive to brass and steel.

The Continuing Examination of Lubes claimed that GB Wire-Aide works well, and I found that it does. I even told y'all how well it works in this message. Well, last weekend I lubed up 50 rifle cases with JB Lube, resized half of them, and then had to set the batch aside. A few days later I went to finish them. Around the base of each round, where the sizing die had pushed down excess lube, a ring of lube had dried. When I scraped some off with a fingernail, I found that it had turned light green. After tumbling the brass shows no staining or pitting, but the green is a sign that JB Lube was reacting with the copper in the brass case.

When I went to clean the sizing die before switching back to my old trusty lube, I found some smooth black stains on the expander ball and a small amount of very fine rust-colored dust inside the die. Concerned, I cleaned the other sizing die I had used with JB lube. It also had a small amount of rust-colored dust inside.

If you're cheap like me, or just adventuresome and like to try odd things, be cautious of JB Lube. It may be harmful to your brass and dies.

Has anyone else had rust or brass corrosion due to GB lube?
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Old May 23, 2008, 02:41 PM   #31
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I called Gardner Bender and got them to send me a MSDS on their wire pulling lube. Sometimes the MSDS will give you clues as to what is inside a product. Got three different ones, all fairly worthless.

The only useful information from the Poly Gel and Yellow Wire Pulling lube was that they were 97% and 95% water.

With that much water, I am certain if it dries out on a steel surface, you run a certain risk of rust.

Super Slick had a note about "contains polysiloxane".

Went to Home Depot and Lowes, was unable to find GB. Found that Home Depot now carries Ideal Wiring pulling lube.



I purchased the Yellow 77 version. I found the MSDS http://www.idealindustries.com/media...ow_77_msds.pdf and this stuff is mostly water and wax.

I bought a bottle at Home Depot and found that it is about worthless as a case lubricant.

I tried small base sizing 308 cases. When the stuff is wet, you can size a case. But it takes effort. Once it dries, and it dries quick, well I was afraid of having a stuck case. In comparison it was almost effortless sizing with RCBS water soluble lube. Well not quite effortless, but it was orders of magnitude easier than sizing a wet case with Ideal Yellow 77 wiring pulling lubricant.
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Old May 23, 2008, 09:02 PM   #32
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Slamfire, you got it right. I wasn't sufficently clear, sorry. GB wire lube is good but, like most other things, we need to understand its requrements.

As I mentioned in my previous post, GB wire lube is a soft (liquid) soap, which is not corrosive of itself but the carrier is water. We all know water causes rust AND reacts with brass. I thought it would be understood that both the cases and dies should be cleaned/dried soon after using GB lube simply because of it's water content. I failed to mention that, and also that it should be used as a case OR wire lube while wet. Dry soap really isn't much of a lube, as you found.

I think the major difference with RCBS (and Lee) water soluable lubes is the solids contents are much higher than the wire lubes.
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Old May 24, 2008, 01:11 AM   #33
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And remember-
RCBS is biased. They want you to use their product. They might possibly inflate the facts, or omit truths to get what they want.
Hmmm. I read and re-read, and then re-re-read RCBS' response to me and no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't find anywhere in their response where they recommended their products.

Instead, they--as a manufacturer and warranty service provider--simply provided their direct, firsthand knowledge and experience with such issues.

I realize that the experience and knowledge of the folks at Dillon, RCBS, Lee, Hornady, Lyman, et al, pales in comparison to the experience and knowledge of some folks around here, but with the exception of the Colt M-16, I've pretty much learned to trust the experience and knowledge of manufacturers when it comes to their own products--and recomendations how to use their products for best results.

But I did have a package from RCBS waiting on me upon my return from a long nine-day trip.

In it was a brand new sizing day for .223, along with a note. Seems that even they couldn't get this stuck case out no matter what they tried--including the freezer trick, torch and nitrogen trick, soaking in WD40, and some tricks I'd never heard of.

Go figure.

All I know is that I've been loading for well over two decades with zero stuck cases using either Lee or RCBS. Within the first twenty rounds of Imperial, I had three stuck cases--one of which ruined my die.

And for the record, I called Redding and asked for instructions on how to "correctly apply and use" the stuff, and lo and behold, I was doing it to the T per their recommendations.

Hey, if the stuff works for you, fantastic and stay with it. I'm truly disappointed that it didn't work for me--I really liked the look and feel of the stuff. Really did.

But it didn't work for me and therefore I choose to continue using what has worked for me with no hiccups for over twenty years.

Jeff
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Old May 26, 2008, 06:29 PM   #34
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+1 on Dillons Case lube

I started sizing .50 BMG cases with Imperial wax and switched to the same dillons Case lube I use with all my other bottleneck cartridges. The Dillons IS the Alcohol/lanolin concoction you always read about and it is So easy to apply ! I place about 25 shells in a gallon freezer ziplock bag and spray about 4 shots into the bag and roll them all around in the bag. this also works to lube about 300 .223 at a time before you drop em in the casefeeder on the 650. I do still use the Imperial wax on a Q-tip for inside the case necks. Anyone who has sized Machinegun fired/crimped .50 brass, knows how bad you need a good lube! And about 200 pounds on your frame to operate the press!
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Old May 27, 2008, 07:15 PM   #35
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Another lubricant with a strong film strength: go to your medicine cabinet and get the bottle of castor oil. You can use it with a lube pad or smear it on with your fingertips.
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Old June 16, 2008, 12:34 AM   #36
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I switched to STP about 40 years ago and have never had a problem with it. It also seems to work better on cases that require a bit of effort to resize. Especially when making wildcats.
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Old June 17, 2008, 01:01 AM   #37
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For whatever it may be worth to others...............I have had success with various lubes but have been happily using soap for some time.-Nothing new-George Nonte recommended it in his handloading bokk decades ago. Instead of Nonte's medical green soap I have used Ivory. About 1/3 of a bar grated into one cup of water IIRC. Stick it in the microwave for a minute/until the soap melts/dissolves. After it cools you are left with a gel that is easy to rub on with fingers, works marvelously and then the residue wipes off CLEAN with a damp rag.
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Old June 17, 2008, 11:09 AM   #38
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Here is the response from RCBS--
It's difficult to believe that the response came from a knowledgable technician. I would wager that 95% of stuck cases are caused by inadequate lubrication. I bet they see a heck of a lot more brand new dies with stuck cases than high mileage ones.


I'm deep into my 3rd tin of Imperial. I clean my 308 die out maybe two times a year (500-1500 cases).
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Old June 17, 2008, 03:28 PM   #39
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Old June 17, 2008, 04:05 PM   #40
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"I'm deep into my 3rd tin of Imperial."

My word. I didn't realize that people *live* long enough to use three cans of that stuff. I'm about halfway through my first tin and that's about 2000 rounds of various rifle calibers (mostly 308). I bought a second tin just because, but it probably will be a year or more before I open it. I also clean my sizing dies once in a while.

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Old June 18, 2008, 12:10 PM   #41
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TimRB--Are you sure you're shooting often enough?
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Old June 18, 2008, 12:50 PM   #42
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Edit: Oops... meant to be a PM.
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Old June 22, 2008, 01:44 PM   #43
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I switched to STP about 40 years ago and have never had a problem with it. It also seems to work better on cases that require a bit of effort to resize. Especially when making wildcats.

1) The RCBS lube is glycerine, and I do not like it in reloading, but it's ok in KY jelly
2) Redding Imperial Die Was works great for my purposes in resizing.
3) Jim Calhoon uses STP or Motor Honey to neck down 30 carbine brass to 19 Badger in 4 steps. He does allot of cases and sells them in big quantities.
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Old June 22, 2008, 02:58 PM   #44
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Texas: "Hmmm. I read and re-read, and then re-re-read RCBS' response to me and no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't find anywhere in their response where they recommended their products.

Instead, they--as a manufacturer and warranty service provider--simply provided their direct, firsthand knowledge and experience with such issues.

I realize that the experience and knowledge of the folks at Dillon, RCBS, Lee, Hornady, Lyman, et al, pales in comparison to the experience and knowledge of some folks around here,..."

I re-read too, don't see a reference to any comments about Imperial Size Wax from Dillion, Lee, Hornady or Lyman, and only one attributed to RCBS. ???

Perhaps you misunderstand our position. None of us said the RCBS clerk you spoke with said, directly, "Use our product". That would have been to blatant. But, surely you realise it was implied when he blamed your stuck case on what is, probably, the most popular case lube on the market? AND he DID say things about Imperial that any casual observer knows cannot possibly be true?

I used to use STP too. In fact, both RCBS and Lyman relabeled it and sold it as case lube for years. Sure, it works well but that's the nastiest stuff to get off your fingers and cases I know of. Imperial is much cleaner, works just as well as the STP, even for case forming (I make 22-250 out of bulk .35 Whelen brass with no problems at all when using Imperial) and it's far cleaner. In thousands of rounds, I've NEVER had a stuck case IF I applied it correctly, and certainly never had a case "rubber glued" into any die! That's so silly it's funny!

There is much less mystery in case lubes than many people seem to believe.
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Old June 22, 2008, 05:43 PM   #45
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Okay, I'll have to bite...

You custom make .22-250, which is widely available as factory brass from a bunch of different manufacturer's from .35 Whelen brass, which was a full-on wildcat round until Remington made a run of it at some point in the late 80s, and I have no idea if they still make it or not. And this is bulk .35 Whelen brass?

So sure, I can see this as possible, but it sure seems like a Rube Goldberg. Have I missed something, or did you just have a HUGE cache of .35 Whelen brass? And, if that's the case, how?

It's interesting, but it seems like trying to re-invent a Michelin by chipping away at a boulder.
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Old June 22, 2008, 05:56 PM   #46
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Sevens-
Why wncchester chose .35 Whelen for forming .22-250, I don't know... There is probably a good reason. (Smokin' deal on it?)

However, .35 Whelen Brass is still available, and actually fairly easy to find.
Aside from that, he may be talking about bulk straight-wall brass. Last year, the cheapest unformed '06 brass you could get from Remington was stamped .35 Whelen. I was very tempted to buy a lot of 1000, since Remington listed it around $180 / 1000. (Compared to $35-40 / 100 formed)
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Old June 22, 2008, 06:03 PM   #47
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Well, that makes good sense, I guess... I still see case-forming a widely available round such as .22-250 as a whole lot of work as long as the factories are pumping out bushels of it, but I do understand that a lot of people want a little more hand in the handcrafting of their ammo.

I remember reading a current (at the time) gun rag (probably G&A) and it was in the mid to late 80s, that they had a whole feature article on how Remington turned .35 Whelen from a wildcat to a real live factory available caliber.

Seems like a pretty good caliber that fills what was an open spot.
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Old June 22, 2008, 06:24 PM   #48
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Sevens: "Have I missed something,... "

Yep.

The issue isn't to duplicate factory cases, it's to make custom cases that fit my factory chambers like a gloove. Don't need 500 rounds of it, just a few boxes in each of the several cartridges I form them for. I chose Whelen cases, not straight walled cases, because it gives me a chance to make better 30-06 cases as well as the smaller stuff.

If I was satisfied with factory accuracy then I'd be satisfied with factory cases. You'll have to go back to the magazines of the 60s to read much about it. Anyway, it's mostly learned by doing, not reading.

My point was that Imperial will allow us to do about anything with a case we wish to do, and without it turning to a rubber glue.
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Old June 23, 2008, 07:57 AM   #49
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Well, give me a little credit for
Sevens: "I do understand that a lot of people want a little more hand in the handcrafting of their ammo."


But you've got to admit, it doesn't sound like a typical operation... crafting a popular round out of a scarce one.
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Old June 26, 2008, 11:32 AM   #50
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Wax Based Lube

Hi everyone, The person answering the email neglected to mention that they were referring to Spray lubes that have a wax base. We're not sure if the customer is using too much, too little, too soon or too late but it's hard for us to remove the case it's so stuck. Some of our customers have told us that they've used the lube in the past with no problem and then they get a stuck case. When our warranty department takes out the case, they can tell right away that it was a wax based spray lube, it's that apparent. Sorry if this caused a lot of confusion. We never mean to misinform but sometimes we get going too fast and that's never good. Have a great day! Jeanne, RCBS Customer Service.
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