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Old May 7, 2008, 11:00 AM   #1
DonR101395
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For those that advocate birdshot

http://www.yakima-herald.com/stories/3225

Quote:

Shot in groin, it was no drive-by
By CHRIS BRISTOL
Yakima Herald-Republic


YAKIMA -- Friends of a 20-year-old man who accidentally shot himself after putting a sawed-off shotgun in his pants initially claimed he was the victim of a drive-by shooting, Yakima police said.

The man, suffering from massive groin damage, was airlifted to a Seattle hospital where he was reported in satisfactory condition Monday.

Police found the man in the 700 block of North 24th Avenue about 1:30 a.m. Sunday, but quickly deduced his injuries did not correspond to reports of a drive-by shooting.

The officers then got a search warrant for a house about a half block away and confirmed their suspicion the shooting was self-inflicted. The man was airlifted to Harborview Medical Center in Seattle.

Capt. Greg Copeland said both barrels of the shotgun accident-ally discharged when the man for unknown reasons placed the gun, which was loaded with birdshot, in his pants.

On Monday, police said the shotgun had been illegally sawed off on both ends.

During the search of the house, officers said they also found a 9 mm Ruger semiautomatic pistol that had been reported stolen in Spokane.

Copeland said police expect to ask prosecutors for felony weapons charges against the man, who has a lengthy criminal record that includes convictions for assault, theft and drug use.

It was unclear if the man is an active gang member. According to court records, his involvement in a shooting in 2003 was gang-related.
















Mods this may need to be moved, I wasn't sure whether to post it in SG, general or here.
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Old May 7, 2008, 11:05 AM   #2
cxg231
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Please elaborate, I am unclear as to what relationship there is between this person's massive stupidity and birdshot?

PS - I'm not a birdshot advocate. Just wondering what the point is? Don't jam a shotgun down your pants?
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Old May 7, 2008, 12:06 PM   #3
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No, don't jam a sawed off shotgun down your pants, you can jam regular shotguns down your pants all you want.
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Old May 7, 2008, 12:14 PM   #4
DonR101395
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The point being that this guy shot himself point blank twice, apparently no arterial penetration, but much hamburger de' groin with birdshot and is in satisfactory condition the next morning. Granted his sex life won't be the same
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Old May 7, 2008, 12:17 PM   #5
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As I posted in the other thread, I've had second hand experience with birdshot blowing off a substancial portion of a guys head. So what does this prove, someone breaks in, don't aim for his package? Come on.
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Old May 7, 2008, 03:30 PM   #6
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If he was stuffing it down his pants, the shot would have been a grazing one, not as if he shot himself full on.
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Old May 8, 2008, 06:18 PM   #7
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What an idiot. What is really bad is he probably stole and sawed off someone's LC Smith.
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Old May 8, 2008, 09:01 PM   #8
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Depending on the extent of the damage, he may have done the gene pool a favor.
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Old May 8, 2008, 09:42 PM   #9
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Since it hit just his groin, then it could have been buckshot, slug, whatever and the dammage would have been the same.

I think everyone here has heard of hunters pulling their shotgun (with birdshot left in it from bird hunting) by the barrel and offing themselves with a chest full of shot. Never heard of one of them getting up after being hit with a load in the chest.

My wife was a ER nurse, CV OR, head of CVICU, and a bunch of other positions. She said shotgun wounds were the worst and almost always carried in, not walking in like many handgun wounds (especially .22 and .25, lots of them walk in talking.)
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Old May 8, 2008, 10:24 PM   #10
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My thought was........

......

Quote:
The point being that this guy shot himself point blank twice, apparently no arterial penetration, but much hamburger de' groin with birdshot and is in satisfactory condition the next morning. Granted his sex life won't be the same
..... that there are fates WORSE than death. One (this one) would be to be and being known far and wide as "the critter dumb enough to blow his own balls off....... twice."......

Stupid should hurt............ by this measure, that HAD to be excruciating.........
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Old May 9, 2008, 12:54 AM   #11
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I have only seen one shotgun wound on a human and it ain't pretty. It was self inflicted using small game loads (probably 6 or 7.5), the fella didn't survive.

I couldn't imagine shooting myself in the groin and SURVIVING!!!
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Old May 9, 2008, 03:14 PM   #12
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Quote:
Depending on the extent of the damage, he may have done the gene pool a favor.
I think the Darwin Awards normally require one to kill oneself in some stupid way. Maybe this can qualify, however, given the nature of the injuries.
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Old May 9, 2008, 05:58 PM   #13
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a friend of mine, who is a plumber shot his thumb off with an old shotgun... he was riding in a truck and had the butt of the shotgun on the floor, apparently it was an old single shot with no kinds of safety. he was grabbing the shotgun near the end of the barrel with his thumb in/over the top of the barrel. They hit a big bump in the truck. Now he can do that thumb magic trick like no other.
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Old May 11, 2008, 09:22 AM   #14
bobthewelder
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Actually, this guy will probably have a pretty active sex life, just from the receiving end in prison where he belongs. I keep mine loaded with 00 TAP.
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Old May 13, 2008, 11:36 PM   #15
chrisandclauida2
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the report said nothing about the ammo or where he shot himself. it is useless for the subject you brought up.

i like bird shot for its dense load up close and mitigated power after it starts encountering objects.

birdshot has its place. we used to skip in bird shot or shoot the legs of rioting inmates over 25 yards because used in this way it is considered less lethal.

it is up to the owner to use want they want then know the limitations of those tools.

there is a lead powder shot that is extremely dense and is even better than bird shot in its loosing energy at distance.

only you can know what you feel comfortable with.
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Old May 14, 2008, 11:41 AM   #16
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As I posted in another thread: the son of a friend of ours had the entire top-half of his head taken-off with birdshot at approx 20 yds in a hunting accident. Another person we knew had his shotgun loaded with birdshot in the window rack in his truck and it went-off and shot him in the chest as he was pulling it out of the rack, killing him instantly. The statement that birdshot is not an effective self-defense round is entirely false! One just has to exercise some common sense in using it. If you try to pop a perp at 50+ yds with it then you are being entirely unrealistic. A 10 ga with buckshot isn't lethal at such long ranges. Self-defense shotguns are meant to be effective at 10-30 yds at best. With 00 Buckshot you can pepper a guy at 40-50 yds and perhaps scare him and do some minor damage but IMHO, anyone who hangs around after being shot at with a shotgun is a freaking idiot and probably belongs in a mental hospital!
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Old May 14, 2008, 01:49 PM   #17
DonR101395
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Quote:
the report said nothing about the ammo or where he shot himself. it is useless for the subject you brought up.

Reading is fundamental.


Quote:
The man, suffering from massive groin damage, was airlifted to a Seattle hospital where he was reported in satisfactory condition Monday.


Capt. Greg Copeland said both barrels of the shotgun accident-ally discharged when the man for unknown reasons placed the gun, which was loaded with birdshot, in his pants.
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Old May 14, 2008, 06:06 PM   #18
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My 0.02 U$

Somebody that stupid should NOT be getting free helicopter rides paid for by the rest of us.
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Old May 14, 2008, 06:14 PM   #19
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a .458 Win mag would not kill you if not hit in the right spot! this says nothing about buckshot effectiveness or even bird shot for that matter. I think you hit a guy COM with a load of 1.5oz 4 shot and you would have a body to dispose of provided it was close range.
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Old May 15, 2008, 01:47 PM   #20
chrisandclauida2
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i missed the bird shot part. my frak up. i made a mistake. i know your saying not him but who knew right. lol


the point about where he was shot is that groin is a generic term. you used it to defend that birdshot is useless because there was no arterial penetration. my point is groin is a generic term which can include from the waist down to a few inches of the leg.

case in point. no one would doubt that a 357 is one of the premium man stoppers. i know a guy who carried idiot style in his waist band. well one day he was screwing around, as idiots do, and didnt lower the hammer he had cocked.[another idiot thing playing with a loaded gun but what can you expect from someone who carries in their waist band idiot style] as he inserted gun in waist band he made another idiot mistake and had his finger in the trigger gaurd.

kaplam goes the 357. he got a vasectomy, penile reduction surgery, pelvis trimming surgery and muscular liquefaction and removal all at once all for free. missed all the arteries though. lucky guy as some know severing an artery very high in the groin sometimes causes it to retract into the pelvis thus making emergent clamping impossible.

i know one 125 grn lead projectile is different than a hundreds or so bb's. but the point is some folks are lucky. guys go thru a firefight unscathed only to find a crap load of holes in their jacket back packs pants etc.

another importiant point about the birdshot is the fact it quickly loses its umph when it hits something. its penetration isnt spectacular and over penetration of nearly non existent. this is one of the reasons some like it for use in a house. the chances of buck over penetrating at 10 feet are pretty high. that shot will go thru walls and kill people where bird shot loses so much energy thats the chance of unintentional death of your kids sleeping in the next room is minimal even with a few bb strikes.

it all goes back to use what you feel comfortable with.
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Old May 18, 2008, 02:26 AM   #21
LanceOregon
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Guys, even just a tiny .410 shotgun loaded with birdshot is deadly at close range.

Here is an autopsy photo from the FBI's website showing a man who was shot in the head with just a .410 using birdshot:

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backis...search2_10.jpg

I would venture to say that this fellow died very quickly.

Now if you want to see a bunch of EXTREMELY graphic photos of what 12 gauge loads to the human body, buy a copy of this book:




Shotguns are extremely destructive at close range, no matter what size shot is in the shell.


P.S. - This news story at the start of this thread does not mention what gauge of shotgun this fellowed stuffed down his pants. I don't think that one can assume that it was a 12 gauge. A smaller gauge sawed-off shotgun would be easier to conceal.

.
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Old May 18, 2008, 05:31 PM   #22
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There is no question that bird shot can be deadly at close range.

But advocates of the shotgun for home defense often make two claims that don't stand up to testing.

The first is that "you don't have to aim or anything, the room will be filled with a cloud of shot that will kill anybody in there." Since the average spread of a shot charge is about 1" per yard, the shot spread across an average room will be about 3-4 inches, hardly a "cloud of shot" that eliminates any need for aiming or even pointing the right direction.

The second claim is that "birdshot will not penetrate dry wall or anything else so your loved ones will be safe." Not true. Any shot load with the power to kill or seriously wound an intruder will have enough power to harm innocent people, even behind dry wall.

Jim
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Old May 18, 2008, 06:04 PM   #23
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Jim that's absolutely true, but although a 7.62 round will go through several walls and remain lethal, bird shot won't. If your kid is on the other side of the wall and you shoot they're getting peppered, but if the shot has to go through 2 walls (4 layers of sheetrock plus insulation) and whatever furniture is in the room in the 25 ft between you and your kids it's a different matter.

Bird shot wouldn't make that trip. Buck shot might, a pistol round almost certainly would. An AK round definately would.
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Old May 18, 2008, 06:19 PM   #24
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Quote:
There is no question that bird shot can be deadly at close range.

But advocates of the shotgun for home defense often make two claims that don't stand up to testing.

The first is that "you don't have to aim or anything, the room will be filled with a cloud of shot that will kill anybody in there." Since the average spread of a shot charge is about 1" per yard, the shot spread across an average room will be about 3-4 inches, hardly a "cloud of shot" that eliminates any need for aiming or even pointing the right direction.

The second claim is that "birdshot will not penetrate dry wall or anything else so your loved ones will be safe." Not true. Any shot load with the power to kill or seriously wound an intruder will have enough power to harm innocent people, even behind dry wall.

Jim
That is very true. You still have to aim a shotgun. You cannot just point it in a general direction, and hope to be successful.

A shotgun would be most useful in protecting your home in case of a riot or other type of breakdown in civil order as took place during Katrina, or the LA riots.

But against an intruder inside your home, a good handgun is still your best option.

.
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Old May 18, 2008, 08:10 PM   #25
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That is your opinion Lance, I feel that it depends on the situation which is my opinion. I own a large two story home with a basement. If I hear something downstairs, I'll go for the scattergun, and the pistol on my hip. If it takes place upstairs where my kids rooms are adjacent to my bedroom, scattergun first is likely, but millions of scenarios will dictate different opinions. I know my Hornady TAP 00 buck can penetrate walls and keep going, as with my TAP .45 ammo. If I miss upstairs from my place in bed, I will likely hit one of my kids. This is why I have motion detectors set up to alert me in bed when someone nears any entrance point of my home. I also have a camera, and will be adding more. If somehow they make it upstairs without me knowing about it first, I hope I remember to drop to one knee and fire up at the dirtball so that if I miss all I hurt is my property.
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