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Old May 6, 2008, 03:20 PM   #1
Mactrekr
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45 colt flying ashtray

Ok,

I've seen a lot of stuff around the net about the "Gold Dot" 200gr flying ashtray by speer. Most of the info is old, and frankly I want to make sure I understand before I go messin round with it. Is the 200gr "Gold Dot" that folks are refering to for the .45 colt, the same as Speer is selling today? The only bullet I could find in that specification looked as though it was specifically designed to be loaded in .45 acp, not .45 colt. I know technically you can interchange .45 colt and .45 acp but I've heard it's not recommended because of the grooves. Could someone please give me some insight?

Thanks
Mac
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Old May 6, 2008, 04:10 PM   #2
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From what I understand old Colt guns in .45 colt have a .454 groove to groove barrel diameter. That was to compensate for black powder fouling. So they will shoot more accurately with a .454 sized bullet.

Most all modern .45 colt barrels on Rugers, S&W, and Gen 3 Colts are .451, so .452 bullets will work fine, now some .45 colt guns shoot better with heavier bullets, because the fixed sight is regulated for 250 grain bullets rather than 200 or 230 grainers, but this applies mostly to cast lead bullets.

In a modern .45 Colt revolver you should be good with modern jacketed bullets sized .451 -.4515.

The flying ashtray is an older design and is a jacketed bullet meaning the jacket was a seperate piece. They are no longer made AFIK.

Goldots are plated bullets that have the cavity punched out resulting in the gold dot at the bottom of the hollow point cavity.
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Last edited by Master Blaster; May 7, 2008 at 11:07 AM.
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Old May 6, 2008, 10:29 PM   #3
Rampant_Colt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Blaster
The flying ashtray is an older design and is a true bonded core jacketed bullet meaning the jacket was a seperate piece. They are no longer made AFIK.

Goldots are plated bullets that have the cavity punched out resulting in the gold dot at the bottom of the hollow point cavity
That is incorrect. The Speer/CCI 200gr JHP "Flying Ashtray" is a conventional non-bonded jacketed hollowpoint. Only Gold Dots are bonded, or electroplated.
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Old May 7, 2008, 08:21 AM   #4
Master Blaster
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That is incorrect. The Speer/CCI 200gr JHP "Flying Ashtray" is a conventional non-bonded jacketed hollowpoint. Only Gold Dots are bonded, or electroplated
Nice thread Hijack, speer has two types of Bonded core bullets, Unicor where the lead is poured moltent at 900 degrees into the jacket, and plated which is the TMJ and Golddot. Coventional bullets like the flying ashtray ( no longer made) are also bonded by either heat or pressure, otherwise the core and the jacket would seperate.
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Old May 7, 2008, 10:18 AM   #5
Rampant_Colt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Blaster
Nice thread Hijack, speer has two types of Bonded core bullets, Unicor where the lead is poured moltent at 900 degrees into the jacket, and plated which is the TMJ and Golddot. Coventional bullets like the flying ashtray ( no longer made) are also bonded by either heat or pressure, otherwise the core and the jacket would seperate
Strike two. You are incorrect again.

Uni-cor was the original name of Gold Dot bullets back in 1991-'92 before being changed to Gold Dot, and is a process CCI/Speer uses to manufacture TMJ and Gold Dot bullets.
The old Speer 200 grain JHP is NOT a bonded bullet. It is a conventional jacketed hollowpoint. Your definition of bonded bullets is incorrect.
TMJ and Gold Dots are bonded bullets, however, the proper term would be plated.
The current 200gr CCI/Speer Gold Dot is a true bonded JHP bullet


from the side of a box of Gold Dots:


thank you for trolling misinformation
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Old May 7, 2008, 10:37 AM   #6
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Rampant has it correct they haven't the "flying ashtray" in quite a while. They were my carry ammo in the late 80's. A great design at the time, but technology has progressed and their are better designs now i.e. Gold Dot
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Old May 7, 2008, 10:54 AM   #7
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SPEERĀ® Trophy Bonded Bear Claw Rifle Bullets
There will be times you need the best bullet available. Times when failure is not an option. For those times, we offer the reloader the superb Trophy Bonded Bear Claw soft point.

Designed by renowned big game hunter Jack Carter, Bear Claw bullets combine deep penetration, maximum and fast expansion, and incredibly high retained weights. The jacket is machined from gilding metal, producing a cavity for a front core, and a solid rear shank for integrity.

The front lead core is fusion-bonded to the jacket at high temperatures, creating a true bonded core.
The solid rear shank stands up to punishment that destroy lesser bullets. The fusion process leaves the front portion of the jacket soft so Bear Claws expand reliably over a wide range of velocities. The solid shank remains intact for the ultimate in bullet integrity.

Retained weights over 95 percent are the norm. Mushroomed lead stays with the jacket petals, The nose-heavy expanded bullet means straight-line penetration. This is one awesome bullet.

To see the entire selection of Bear Claw bullets, use the handy Bullet Selector and search by "Ultra-premium Bullets

Actually the purpose of this post was to ask about the correct bullet to use in loading a .45Colt and whether a speer bullet would work.

The purpose of this post was not to argue about how speer builds it bullets.
Very childish of you to pick a section of my post and tell me I'm wrong when its really irrelevant to the OP


Here is speers bullet page you can read all about how different bullets are constructed.
The words bonded core can apply to a couple different construction methods according to speer's own site. Hot poured lead, or plated.

http://www.speer-bullets.com/default.asp?s1=3&s2=7&s3=5
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Old May 7, 2008, 11:03 AM   #8
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Back at you, you are WRONG A HOLE

Who is this directed at?
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Old May 7, 2008, 11:24 AM   #9
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Gee Guys, didn't mean to start a war. I was just lookin for a little info. In the end though, I think I'll be getting the 250gr gold dot. http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballist...il.aspx?id=211
They have the groove that I've heard is better for the .45colt and they're labled as ".45 colt" by speer. Frankly, I really don't care how speer makes their bullets, as long as they do the job, but there's some interesting info here. Thanks to all who answered. Also, if anyone has a better HP bullet in mind for .45 colt, please let me know.

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Old May 7, 2008, 12:08 PM   #10
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Personal attacks aside, welcome to TFL, Mactrekr

I suggest experimenting with different bullet weights in both lead and JHP varieties for your .45.

The 200gr Gold Dot in question is intended for the .45 ACP with a diameter of .451. Do you have a Speer part number for the bullets you're looking at?

I know Corbon USED to load the 200gr flying ashtray into the .45 Colt before they became discontinued. IIRC, they're currently using the Sierra 200gr JHP as a replacement.

You should also check out hand-casting some lead bullets for best economy
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Old May 9, 2008, 07:06 PM   #11
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I started to reply but why bother. This back and forth stuff gives me a headache.
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Old May 9, 2008, 07:23 PM   #12
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I use 200 Grain +P on my 3" Colt New Agent.... I thought I would make up for the shorter barrell with the lighter round and +P..

I don't think they are considered the flying ashtrays... but they are definatley a hot round.... I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of them...

Hope this helps..



PS Oops I didn't realize this was in the reloading forum.... Sorry guys...

Anyways.. I the the round....
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Old May 9, 2008, 07:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
I think I'll be getting the 250gr gold dot.
good choice
I copied this from midway reviews on this bullet


Quote:
I've also taken 10 deer with this bullet/sabot combination and the results on game are devastating. These bullets will literally rip a 2-3" diameter wound channel through any deer-sized game and to date, I have never had to track a single animal. All shots have also been complete pass-throughs and they leave baseball sized exit wounds. I would also imagine that they stay together because even though I've never recovered one, I've never found any copper or metal in any of the animals upon field dressing.
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Old May 10, 2008, 06:57 AM   #14
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Mactreker-The Speer 200 grain "flying ashtray" part # 4739, is an older design than the 200 grain Gold Dot part # 4478. The original flying ashtray had a cannelure, which enabled it to be roll crimped for revolvers, or taper crimped for semi autos. IMHO, a very good design and accurate bullet, which is why have several value packs saved. I wish they still made em.

Depending on your purpose and specific revolver, the new Speer 200 grain Gold Dot would be worth a try in 45 LC. Ruger revolvers usually have tighter chamber throats, and bores suitable for .451 jacketed/plated bullets. If ya load the 200 gn Gold Dot for 45 acp plus p velocitys in a 45 Lc case, ya probably won't need a roll crimp to keep the bullet from jumping forward. Ya might need to size and expand the end of the case with 45 acp dies, for a tighter interference fit. The POI from using these faster lighter loads will be considerably different at 25 yds than heavier bullets traditionally used in 45 LC.

If your revolver has .454 or larger throats, ya might have accuracy problems with the lighter .451 bullets.

Have had excellent accuracy from Ruger 45 LC's, using bullets designed for 45 acp, but most my Rugers have filed down front sight. Might have some other suggestions, but you would need to be more specific on what pistol and purpose ya are intending.
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Old May 10, 2008, 03:05 PM   #15
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from loading experience

Recommend cannelured 'for 45 Colt' bullets; the Hornady 250g XTP-HP is a fine choice.

Experience with heavy 45 Colt loads using non-cannelured bullets intended for 45 ACP suggests movement under recoil impossible to alleviate without adhesives. Even numerous custom dies for sizing and neck expansion did not secure the bullet (230g Golden Saber was the original order).
Crimping over the shoulder didn't work (well, all these steps worked well enough at more modest power levels, but as stupid was approached all bets were off.....

Customer ended up getting them 250g XTP's instead (of all the other choices I tested).
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Old November 18, 2008, 03:12 PM   #16
Mactrekr
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Ok, well, I was fortunate enough to get my hands on about 400 cast lead 230gr round nose .452 diameter bullets to "practice" with. Had good luck so far, and the bullets were....... wait for it......... wait for it......... FREE! I figure on honing my .45 colt reloading skills on these, and eventually, I'll get a box of the 200gr gold dot for personal defense. Just an FYI, I've got 3 firearms chambered in .45 colt. I have a Cimmaron Cattleman, a Taurus Gaucho and a New Vaquero. My favorite being the Taurus, it just feels right. Thanks again for all the info!

Mac
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