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Old May 5, 2008, 09:45 PM   #1
DieHard06
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A car break-in in progress

I don't know if this is the right column to post this in, but it can always be moved.

My brother and sister-in-law live in Indiana. Neither has or carries a gun. This is a true story from three months ago. At this point in time my sister-in-law, who is a nurse was eight months pregnant. They were shopping for baby stuff at Target in the Fort Wayne area and upon leaving the store came upon their Nissan Sentra being broken into by two guys. They had already pried open the dash, emptied the trunk (her nursing equipment and hygene equipment for the long shifts were inside and change in clothes), and were in the process of prying the cd player out of the dash when they (brother and sister) walked up to the car. My brother-in-law immediately confronted them while his pregnant wife looked on. The two guys immediately stopped and walked over to the owner of the car and started yelling at him for yelling at them (they were unarmed, with a gun that is). When my brother-in-law threatened to call the police, they told him to go ahead and that the police already knew their names and that they wouldn't do a thing. They left but did not return any of the items taken which amounted to several hundred dollars worth plus the damage to the car. After they drove away my brother-in-law called the police to file a report. To his shock, the police acknowledged that they knew of the two individuals and that there wasn't anything they could really do, or would do.(the police apparently already apprehended them more than once.) My question is, were I in the same situation in PA, and I was carrying my CCW with my CCP and happened upon two thugs breaking into my car who did not show signs of being armed with anything but a screwdriver, could I legally draw my weapon and get my stuff back while having my wife call the police and come and get them?

Before you answer, I know that there is a big difference between protecting my life or the lives of innocents, and between open carry and and drawing my weapon in my own home. I just want to know if it would be legal to show them my gun and say, "Give me my stuff back" or "Don't move" while having someone else call the police?
I asked my handgun safety instructor who also teaches a class on concealed carry class this question. He said, that I could make a "Citizen's arrest" but would have to make it clear to all others in the parking lot that I was the good guy by using phrases that a police officer might use while not actually stating that I was a policeman. Obviously that would be tricky, and my instructor definately has a lot more guts and confidence in his ability to do that than I do (He has been doing this for fifty years and at one point was a LEO himself). He said that if the guy called my bluff and turned and ran I would have to just let him go. Anyway, he said more, but I want to hear what you have to say, which I am sure would be different.
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Old May 5, 2008, 10:10 PM   #2
Sigma 40 Blaster
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In TX you can show a handgun in a situation that you could legally use force (not deadly force), the purpose is to create apprehension that you will use the weapon and force the actee's into submission. Stopping burglary of property falls into that situation, I believe the situation that unfolded after that would dictate your actions.

I also see where you can use deadly force to stop someone from fleeing the scene of CERTAIN crimes, I do not believe theft is in that list, robbery is, but I do not believe burglary is...and it's too late and I'm too lazy to look it up.

So BG's run away...your state law would dictate what you could or could not do to stop them or let them go. BG's continue to be aggressive, try to disarm you...again your state law dictates what you could or could not do. There will probably be 100 different responses to this from people in different states and countries. You just have to know what you CAN and can't do, then what you would or would not do.
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Old May 5, 2008, 10:19 PM   #3
vanguard_anon
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I just took my ccw class (North Carolina) a week ago so most of what we learned is still fresh.

1) If he approached you with a screwdriver you would have a pretty good case for shooting him. You just need to be able to make your case for a reasonable person fearing death, serious bodily harm, or sexual assault. Having said that, shooting somebody isn't something you do lightly. He mentioned several times that there are law firms that contact victim's families and convince them to bring the civil case to trial.

2) In NC there is no citizen's arrest. He made that really clear. We had all heard of it on TV and in the movies several times but it doesn't exist in NC. I can't detain people or arrest them.

As for what I would have done, I probably would have called the police. I might have confronted them if I had valuable things in the car.
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Old May 5, 2008, 10:35 PM   #4
Scattergun Bob
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DieHard06

Every once in awhile this comes up,

First check with your attorney general, believe no one else for your states take on armed defense.

Second, besides the Legal aspect, there is the emotional (rightness) of what we do as CCW permitees. View the following, it has served me well.


My Five Rules for CONCEALED Carry


1. My concealed handgun is for protection of life only.
Draw it only in preparation to protect myself or my family from the willful and wanton life-threatening actions of another.

2. Know exactly when I can use my gun.

A predator must have or reasonably appear to have:

the ability to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon me. (He is armed)

the opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm. (distance, body type, position)

his intent indicates that he means to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon me. (mere words are not enough) When all 3 of these element are in place simultaneously, THIS IS A THREAT STIMULUS!
The response to threat stimulus ; zero muzzle, flash sight picture, exercise trigger control, deliver a minimum response.

3 If I can move away safely - THEN RUN

If I force a confrontation I risk the possibility of myself or a family member being killed, criminal liability, arrest. I will flee if I can, fight only as a last resort.
The BEST gunfight that ever was, was the one that never happened!

4 Display my gun, go to jail.

I should expect to be arrested by the police at gunpoint, and be charged with a crime anytime I expose my concealed handgun to another citizen in public! I must continue to perfect a carry method that keeps my pistol reliably hidden from the general public view. Before I deliberately expose my pistol in public, I must ask myself "is this issue worth going to Jail".

5. Don't let my emotions get the best of me.

THIS IS A PROBLEM FOR YOU. If, despite my efforts, I do get into some kind of heated dispute with another while I am armed, never mention, imply, or exhibit my pistol to intimidate. (SEE EVAN'S STUFF, AND READ AGAIN & AGAIN)

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Old May 5, 2008, 10:49 PM   #5
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IMHO he should have retreated and called 911. To risk his and his pregnant wife's life over property that is no doubt insured isn't worth it. This was a scenero that would be better dealt with by law enforcement. I can understand his anger and the general feeling of frustration when dealing with the criminal element in our society but it just does not make good sense to try and deal with this by yourself.
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Old May 6, 2008, 12:02 AM   #6
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Quote:
When my brother-in-law threatened to call the police, they told him to go ahead and that the police already knew their names and that they wouldn't do a thing. They left but did not return any of the items taken which amounted to several hundred dollars worth plus the damage to the car. After they drove away my brother-in-law called the police to file a report. To his shock, the police acknowledged that they knew of the two individuals and that there wasn't anything they could really do, or would do.(the police apparently already apprehended them more than once.)
Why? Illegal aliens??????
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Old May 6, 2008, 12:13 AM   #7
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+1 Socrates ... What kind of PD do you have going there? Witnesses to a crime, evidence, etc... and they can't do anything? WTH?
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Old May 6, 2008, 12:18 AM   #8
cold dead hands
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Quote:
1) If he approached you with a screwdriver you would have a pretty good case for shooting him. You just need to be able to make your case for a reasonable person fearing death, serious bodily harm, or sexual assault. Having said that, shooting somebody isn't something you do lightly. He mentioned several times that there are law firms that contact victim's families and convince them to bring the civil case to trial.
A person who has caused you to fear for your life is not a victim when you shoot him/her. Please do not use lawyer double speak here. (Insert insensitive remark of choice about lawyers morals here). A perp is never the victim when you consider that his actions are making you a victim.

I am very un-PC about this subject. I say that you need to aerate the bastard. Legal trouble may follow, but you still get to see those that you love for at least one more day.

I believe that every state in the union should pass laws that prevent the real victim's abuse when it comes to self defense. It matters not where it happened. The ability to stand your ground is makes you truly free. BUT then again lib-tard states aren't about freedom are they?

Quote:
IMHO he should have retreated and called 911. To risk his and his pregnant wife's life over property that is no doubt insured isn't worth it.
Some of us do not have cell phones. They aren't cheap regardless of who you go to. On top of that I no desire to own one at this point in my life. If I need 911 then I can count on my gunshots getting everyone else with phones to dial it in for me. HAHA. Only kidding...kind of, but not really.

Some of us live so close to the financial edge (thanks to the crappy economy. I won't point fingers, but smart people know who to blame) that extra premiums are out of reach as well.

If I caught known felons (whom the police were unwilling to stop because of their incompotence or inability to bring to prosecution because of a truly corrupt local government) trying to steal my "stuff" that I have worked long and hard to buy...well...I might not shoot them...but cuts to flesh are deep and painful. If they bleed out two blocks away...tough.

I have no feelings of remorse or regret about destroying the scum of society. Even if I were to be imprisioned for my actions I would feel good about knowing that I added a drop of chlorine to the gene pool and helped some loser earn his Darwin Award.
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Old May 6, 2008, 01:39 AM   #9
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cold dead hands your insensitive and unforgiving I hope that God would forgive you for taking the LIFE of another human being and I hope I never have to be in Arkensuck or wherever your from. I hope one day somebody shows you what is like to truly be alive and not another cockroach with an itchy trigger finger willing to shoot people over mere possesions. Diehard as for your question, I guess it depends on whats in the car. If there is a gun then yes drawn down and be prepared to defend your life. If its nothing more than a cd player you should call the police and let it go. Karma is a **** and they will get whats owed to them.
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Old May 6, 2008, 02:12 AM   #10
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I would have dialed 911 and mall security now that i am older. when i was younger i kicked the scat out of two guys breaking into my truck. they had the dash tore apart and were trying to get the speakers out, i was home on leave from the Marines and a lot of testoserone in those days. when the cop showed up he looked at the one with the broken nose and looked and me and said well now its jail time! He then said let me guess how this happened, you guys were breaking into this guys truck and he came out, you hit him and he kicked your ass, now its robery and theft and you are going to jail! he was not talking about me going to jail but them. He carted them off and one of the other cops that showed up told them" what the hell is wrong with you?? can you see from the decals this is owned by a Marine?? He was a Marine as well. they took my statement and carted them to the hospital and then jail. the fellow Marine told me " I think they just learned from your little tap dance than the courts can teach them". His last words were Semper FI
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Old May 6, 2008, 03:48 AM   #11
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Come to Florida!

"Drop that weapon" Pointing Glock at holder of weapon... Screwdriver!

When Police arrive they meet Screwdriver on ground... and either ex holder of screwdriver next to it (on ground!) or a reasonable description of the would be thieves who had left, leaving goods from car behind.

Orange County would see no harm in you protecting the pregnant Lady, with your CCW Glock. It has nothing to do with goods, or theft of same.

Screwdriver = Icepick, with a Phillips end.
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Old May 6, 2008, 03:22 PM   #12
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If I draw a handgun, its time to use it.
If the bad guy just runs away, I feel I won the issue.
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Old May 6, 2008, 04:19 PM   #13
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Blind Shooter, While I don't share the tactics of Cold Dead Hands I share his disgust for the lawless. I wouldn't kill to protect property unless said property was needed for keeping me or mine alive. That said I wish someone could invent a magic button that would kill every burglar and robber instantly. Sorry if that seems callous to you. You seem to have more compassion for the lawless than the victim.

Last week someone kicked in my front door. Thankfully my alarm both called police and scared away the burglar. I can tell you that calling someone a cockroach for wanting someone removed from this earth who is evil is rediculous. Its not only about possessions but the fact that someone has violated you. That someone has no regard for the damage and emotional trama they are causing. And yes that someone could take valuables which you worked hard to earn.

My wife still hasn't slept well since this happened. My kids slept in the master bedroom for three days from fear. My front door was exposed as insignificant in stopping a home invasion type entree causing me concern until the parts arrive to remedy the problem. I hate the SOB who did this and hope your "karma" comes soon and stiff.

You would rather Karma give the scum what they deserve CDH would rather do it himself. You both hope for the same thing only you sit in a higher chair with white gloves on and two faces.
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Old May 6, 2008, 05:16 PM   #14
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I have a real problem with the attitude of the responding Police Officers. Absolute minimum would have been to write an incident report and attempt to get positive ID on suspects so a warrant could be issued. I'll bet it would have been a different story if one of the P/O's cars or some bigwig in the local government was involved. BTW I am a sworn Police supervisor and would never put up with that kind of BS answer to Joe Citizen from one of my Officers.
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Old May 6, 2008, 05:18 PM   #15
DieHard06
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To answer some earlier questions, I have no idea why the police there didn't do anything. When he called the police they knew exactly who the two thieves were, and I am not talking, "Oh yeah we have had reports of two people fitting your description doing this", but they literally knew who they were and had already brought them in before. I don't know if they have their hands full with bigger problems or what, but I don't see how it would be that hard to take care of something like this.

I was surprised myself that he confronted them with his wife right there while unarmed, and I am really glad that they weren't armed with guns. I imagine that he didn't see them until he got to his car; I know that one of them was inside the car when he got there. By the way, they had to replace all their stuff and the insurance did not cover all the repairs since the car was older and wan't really "worth it" to them.

It just angers me that one can come upon someone else destroying your property and taking it with no regards for the effects it has on you like three gun said and not be able to do anything about it. I know that almost all police aren't like the ones here, but even great police drop the ball sometimes. Is it better to run away and keep my life and that of my wife's safe? Yes. Should I have to? No.

Oh, and I like Texas and Florida better all the time. PA is a good state though. At least it is not ruled by the liberal cities in it like Maryland (I grew up there), New York and New Jersey.
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Old May 6, 2008, 05:24 PM   #16
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Thanks Aquanewt. I like LEO's especially State Troopers. My Uncle is A MD State Trooper and many of my friends are State Troopers in MD and VA. I always enjoyed playing softball with them except for the threats of tickets if I didn't drop the next flyball. LOL
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Old May 6, 2008, 05:36 PM   #17
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Two career criminal armed with car burglery tools vs. one man and a pregnant lady = disparity of force. The moment they chose not to leave but to turn on the two innocent people they voided their warrantees.
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Old May 6, 2008, 06:21 PM   #18
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If the police refuse to handle it then I would go over their heads,and document everything they said when they refused to help. I would take that to my attorney as well as the State Patrol, and the media, about how the police dept. refuses to handle threir jobs. What world did this happen in anyway. Go to the Mayor. If I were in that situation, and these guys obviously target Target (no pun intended), I would set up in that parking lot with a baseball bat and my gun, wearing a ski mask of course. I would wait for them to break into a car then I would beat them both to a bloody pulp, grab my baseball bat and leave. I have never in my life heard of a police dept. who admitted to knowing the two and said they could not/would not intervene. Now with a normal dept. and not an inbred corrupt one like your talking about, I couldn't have used my gun to protect my property, but when two men get into my face and my pregnant wife is present, I now fear for our lives and would shoot first and let the police sort it out in the end.
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Old May 6, 2008, 06:54 PM   #19
vox rationis
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That is outrageous that the Police refuse to bust those guys..Good idea about contacting the highest echelons of the Police administration as well as local, if not national, media, simply outrageous...
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Old May 6, 2008, 09:07 PM   #20
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I have had 2 of my jeep cherokee's broken into and around $1500 worth of stuff taken each time. The police here refuse to show up or write a report. Hell one time I had the window vent that they ripped off that had a full set of finger prints on it. They said they did not have the time to mess with petty crime. One of the main reasons I am trying to find a job somewhere else so I can get my family out of this sh@tty city. When the city police do nothing to stop the crime the people that do it get bolder and move on to more and more dangerous crimes. They end up killing someone or getting killed. We have a kid on my block that wants to steal stuff from others in the neighborhood I caught him looking into my jeep a couple weeks ago, he did not see me standing on the other side of my yard. when he walked around the other side of my jeep to check the doors I slipped around the back and walked up behind him. I had tucked in my shirt so my Ruger 44 mag was showing and asked him what the heck he was doing. After a few minutes of him going uhhh, uhhh, he told me to stop threaten him. He ran off and 5 minutes late his mother was at my door accusing me of pulling a gun on her dumpling darling. I told her if I had pull the gun she would have heard shots. I had a talk to her and to the police( I called them) found out he has been arrested twice for stealing from some of the local quick stops. The police reminded her that our county has the largest number of CCW holders in the state. I hope he never makes me use mine.
sorry for the long post.
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Old May 6, 2008, 11:34 PM   #21
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On a lighter note: I was stalked by two, huge Hawaiian prison guards. Seems asking their friend to box at the gym, who I worked with, meant they had to go beat me up in a back alley. After a couple weeks of this, one of them jumped out, hit me with a hook in the jaw twice.
Me:
"Who the hell are you?"
Him:
"You got a good jaw."
Me:
"I know."

The idiot, who was rather large, about 6'2", and over 220, well over, tried to get to me, but, I was in top shape, and, he had a bad knee.

I got away, called the cops. I described the guy:

Police sarge:
"I know exactly who that is, and, I'll take care of it."

Next day phone call, and considering I'd just moved, who could it be?

"Hi. I'm the guy hit you in the jaw. My uncle came over yesterday. He beat the **** out of me. He said if I didn't
apologize, he'd put me in my own prison. I'm sorry.

Hey, you pretty good. Will you train me?"

Here I made the biggest mistake I ever made in the islands. I said no.
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Old May 6, 2008, 11:38 PM   #22
blind_shooter
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threegun,
Let me start off by saying, I hope that you and your loved ones are ok and that you can get your lives back to normal quickly. That is a very scary thing to have happen to you, something very hard to forget. I too once had my house broken into. I was not there but I still do not feel 100% safe here even after 6 years. I also had my car stolen out of the driveway with over 10,000 worth of stereo equipment inside. Still wouldnt have killed anyone had I caught them breaking in my car. My best friend was murdered in front of me 7 years ago. That is the reason why I got my CCW to protect and defend myself, my family, and my home.. Not to defend my Panasonic CD player or my Nikes.
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Old May 7, 2008, 08:13 AM   #23
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Getting hard to distinguish the cockroaches.....

Quote:
I would set up in that parking lot with a baseball bat and my gun, wearing a ski mask of course. I would wait for them to break into a car then I would beat them both to a bloody pulp, grab my baseball bat and leave.
Judge, jury, and executioner all in one.
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Old May 7, 2008, 08:19 AM   #24
Colt Delta Elite
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and the quandary continues....

Quote:
cuts to flesh are deep and painful. If they bleed out two blocks away...tough. I have no feelings of remorse or regret about destroying the scum of society. Even if I were to be imprisioned for my actions I would feel good
getting hard to figure out where the scum begins and ends as well.
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Old May 7, 2008, 10:55 AM   #25
Uncle Ben
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Maybe I can help you "figure it out" Colt.

The difference is that one of them is a predator. They prey on the innocent, steal and destroy at their whim, and care nothing about the harm, trauma, suffering, and pain that they cause the INNOCENT.

The other in this eqation wants the PREDATOR taken down, and stopped from continuing their lifestyle, which literally ruins the lifestyle of the INNOCENT.

Not being able to tell the difference between the two is exactly what is wrong with our court systems. It is the reason that criminals are released after a short time, and returned to society to continue degrading it. Not being able to tell the difference is also exactly why legislators want to take guns away afrom everyone, not just criminals.
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