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Old May 5, 2008, 02:02 PM   #1
JohnKSa
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Night sight observations...

I recently found a very good deal on night sights. At $52 for a set and free shipping, I jumped on it. Over the weekend I installed them and did some informal testing.

If the area was dark enough that I needed the night sights to align my sights then I couldn't see the target.

If the area was light enough for me to see a target then I didn't need the night sights, the sights would silhouette against the target and I could line them up. Furthermore, in that situation, the "glow" feature of the sights wasn't visible, they could have been plain black sights (not even white dot or white outline) and worked just as well.

Exceptions: If a dark target was silhouetted against a light-colored or dimly lit background, I could see the target but I couldn't see my sights against the dark target--the night sights helped in that case. Also, there was a narrow range of light levels where it was just possible to make out the target when white dot/outline sights were no longer useful but the night sights were easily visible. It should be noted that in the latter situation there would be no way to identify the target as the light was insufficient. In the former (light background/dark target) you could probably make a rough ID based on the target shape/silhouette.

I tried using a flashlight to see if artificial illumination made a difference but the results were similar. Illuminate the target and the sights were easily seen as dark silhouettes against the target. No illumination and the target wasn't visible so it made little difference that I could align the sights precisely.

Basically, it seems that they are useful in a narrow range of lighting levels where a target can just be made out but it's too dark to align the sights, and also when you have a dark target against a light/lit background. Adding them to the pistol does provide improved capabilities in those situations, but really doesn't do anything for you if you have a flashlight or weapon light or if it's really dark.

I think that most folks would probably be better off buying a good quality flashlight and learning to use it properly. It's usually less expensive and offers more capability and versatility.
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Old May 5, 2008, 03:46 PM   #2
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JohnKSa,after having Meprolight tru dots put on my Glock 19 and shooting it at dusk and dark thats sorta how I felt about it.But the tru dots are metal and much more durable than the plastic OEM sights that came on the pistol,the tru dots hit to the same poa as the oem's,so I am okay with them.But when I put new sights on my Colt Combat Commander they will not be night sights.
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Old May 5, 2008, 04:04 PM   #3
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I've never owned or used any night sights. I just figured I didn't really need them. Still, it kept nagging at me that maybe I should at least equip my main carry with a set. Thanks for saving me some money
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Old May 5, 2008, 04:22 PM   #4
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Come on somebody here has to come along and justify all the dough we are paying for night sights.

I'll do my best in the mean time
#1 you can find your gun in the dark.
#2 they are tacticool
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Old May 7, 2008, 11:22 AM   #5
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I put Metros on my pistols that have all black sites. (Kimber, Sig) At most indoor ranges I visit are poorly lit. It helps my old eyes alot. I guess I could have just painted them but I couldn't do it. I agree the prices are unjustified but just plain black sights in low light wasn't working for me.
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Old May 7, 2008, 09:12 PM   #6
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Night sights are best suited to center up on a suspects muzzle flash who is shooting at you and return the favor.

Turning on your flashlight in a gunfight is like announcing Hey..the rest of us cops are over here...would you please shoot at us some ?
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Old May 7, 2008, 10:04 PM   #7
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I think that most folks would probably be better off buying a good quality flashlight and learning to use it properly
I found that to be the case as well from doing some informal testing around the house. In no way would I want to shoot my gun without identifying the threat first in some fashion.

Frankly I think a laser/flashlight combo would work really well. Separately of course, not on the same gun.
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Old May 7, 2008, 11:02 PM   #8
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Night sights are best suited to center up on a suspects muzzle flash who is shooting at you and return the favor.
That makes sense as long as you know that you're the only armed "good guy" in the area. And I can see that night sights would help with this.
Quote:
Turning on your flashlight in a gunfight is like announcing Hey..the rest of us cops are over here...would you please shoot at us some ?
Once shots are being fired, turning on a flashlight might be inadvisable. But unless you know for certain that only "bad guys" are in the area, it's usually recommended that one identify the target before beginning the gunfight.
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Old May 8, 2008, 02:12 AM   #9
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I live alone, and all my friends and family know to call before they come over. And I lock my doors and windows securely.

Therefore, if there's a creature larger than a cat moving around in my house at night, it gets shot. Whether I can identify it or not.
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Old May 8, 2008, 02:35 AM   #10
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Based on my assessment, nightsights are perfect for you and anyone else in a situation that warrants firing accurately at unidentified targets.
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Old May 8, 2008, 09:31 AM   #11
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I think that most folks would probably be better off buying a good quality flashlight and learning to use it properly. It's usually less expensive and offers more capability and versatility.
I think that is an excellent bottom line.

Having taken a low light course there are advantages to night sights in dynamic situations that are not apparent during static shooting at the shooting line.

We all were required to shoot the night course with two guns, one with and one without night sights. Each and every shooter scored more and better hits with night sights than they did without through various lighting situations.

We started in the early evening just before dusk and shot to about 2 am on a moonless night. This allowed a lot of variation in light. We also shot in a lot of lighting situations from in a darkened kill house to a semi lighted kill house. We shot in and around cars with car lights and with the turning emergency lights of a police car.

A good class like the one offered by Surefire is well worth the money if you carry a gun defensively and will really open your eyes to the use of light tactically.

Do I have to have night sights...no. Do I prefer night sights...well all but two of my carry guns have night sights.

John is right. A flashlight is an absolute must (if I really was in a high risk situation I would carry two - tough flashlights). Night sights are really just a bonus.
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Old May 8, 2008, 10:49 PM   #12
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We all were required to shoot the night course with two guns, one with and one without night sights. Each and every shooter scored more and better hits with night sights than they did without through various lighting situations.

We started in the early evening just before dusk and shot to about 2 am on a moonless night. This allowed a lot of variation in light. We also shot in a lot of lighting situations from in a darkened kill house to a semi lighted kill house. We shot in and around cars with car lights and with the turning emergency lights of a police car.
Very good information. I was hoping that someone would respond, one way or the other, with some information based on experience.

I can tell that there are some benefits to having the sights, but I have no easy way to quantify the difference other than to say that it was less than I expected. Do you think it would be possible to post the results of your shooting showing the difference between night sights/regular sights? I'd be very interested in anything that could begin to quantify the difference in capability.
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Old May 8, 2008, 11:14 PM   #13
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I like nightsights because I see them better in the daytime than just black ones or white dots.

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Old May 9, 2008, 01:05 AM   #14
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The only thing I can figure is that the phosphorescent material is excited by the sunlight and glows enough that it helps you pick them up.

You could test the theory by seeing if a phosphorescent paint (like superluminova) gives you the same results. If it does you could get the same effect for less $$.

Also, you should get the same effect from sights that have expired. Got any old, expired, nightsights lying around you could try out?
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Old May 9, 2008, 01:22 AM   #15
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In the limited experience that I have had with tritium sights, I have found that they work best in conjunction with a flashlight. If you keep the beam of the light away from the sights you can see their glow and also have enough light on a target to clearly identify it.
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Old May 9, 2008, 01:52 AM   #16
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The only thing I can figure is that the phosphorescent material is excited by the sunlight and glows enough that it helps you pick them up.
.
Its actually that saphire/white ring around the glass (I always use Trijis) that seems to get piucked up by my aging eyes...

I am really into the new Fiber optic tritium combos and am urging trijicon to do it...I am really a nudge too

Quote:
You could test the theory by seeing if a phosphorescent paint (like superluminova) gives you the same results. If it does you could get the same effect for less $$
Money means nothing to WA

Besides I get em at cost

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Old May 10, 2008, 12:41 AM   #17
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Old May 10, 2008, 09:25 AM   #18
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Low & Reduced Light Training

By: Tom Perroni

When people here the term “Low Light shooting” What they most often think of is shooting in the dark. While this is a bit misleading. At Perroni’s Tactical Training Academy “Low Light shooting” is using a flashlight in conjunction with a handgun to fight when the area you are in the light is low or reduced or non existent.

In the FBI’s (UCR) uniform Crime Report it tells us that 80% of all Law Enforcement shooting happen in low or reduced light. So as a Concealed Carry permit holder, do you carry a flashlight? Even if it is not dark outside could you be in an area of low or reduced light? EXAMPLES: Parking Garage, Stairwell, Hallway, Alleyway, closets, tunnels, etc. This report transfers to “citizen” CHP shootings as well. Perpetrators of street crimes are more active after sundown. So if you do carry a flashlight do you know how to use it?

“The fear of the dark works both ways; you will be better prepared if you train in low and reduced light.”

The first step is having the tools. You need a flashlight, but which one? Surefire, Mag Light, Min Mag, Asp Tactical Led, etc. Before you decide you need to know this:

What is the purpose of the Tactical Flashlight?

1. As an aid in low light navigation and movement.
2. Locate and identify and assess threats and innocents.
3. As a non lethal tool for controlling suspects and subjects.

The biggest question I get asked about flashlights is:
What is the difference between candlepower and lumens?
Lumens is what is used to specify the total amount of light coming from any light producing device, and candlepower refers to the highest value of the light intensity to be found anywhere in the lights "beam".
Lumens tell you how "powerful" the light-producing device is, be it a light bulb of any type, a flashlight, or a car headlight. Candlepower tells you how tightly focused the beam is, assuming the light source has a lens or reflector to focus the light into a beam.
Lumens can be measured quite accurately, using an instrument called an integrating sphere, and identical lights would all have similar lumen values. It is an important quantity to know when comparing different lighting products, as it tells you how much light each one produces.
Candlepower can also be measured accurately, using a light intensity meter to measure luminous intensity, and then by applying the appropriate formula, which takes into account how far, the meter is from the light source. The problem is that he value measured depends on where in the beam you take the measurement (the highest value found is what is normally used), and on how well the beam is focused. It is not unusual for candlepower values to vary greatly from unit to unit on otherwise identical lights due to small differences in focusing or reflector tolerances.
Ken Good from Strategos, Intl. www.strategosinternational.com put it this way:

Lumens verse Candlepower

“Lumen - Measurement of a quantity of light as perceived by the human eye. As a light source's color temperature increases, less light is required to achieve comparable brightness and visual acuity. The international unit to describe the quantity of light (also called luminous flux). – That’s why SureFire uses this as a standard benchmark for all of our illumination tools.

Candle Power (Candelas) Used by lighting designers to calculate the foot-candles illuminating a surface (C.P./distance in feet squared) or Lux illuminating a surface (C.P./distance in meters squared) Foot-candles -Measurement of light output in candela per square foot. It derives from the early English unit of foot-candle defined as the illuminance on a surface placed one foot from the standard candle. 100 foot-candles is generally considered enough light to perform most tasks. Lux - Measurement of light output in candelas per square meter. One lumen per square. 10 lux is generally considered enough light to perform most tasks.

These terms are useful to assist in determining the "signature" of the illumination tool you are speaking about. No one term will fully describe the overall usefulness or quality of the emission. For instance, you can have a light with a tremendous candlepower rating at one point in the pattern, but the rest of the pattern in not useful. I.E. dark spots, splotchy, and/or weak.”

The standard in the industry and the light used at Perroni’s Tactical Training Academy is the Surefire G2. For about $30.00 you have a solid flashlight with about 65 lumens.

The next question I get asked is what about night sights? Or what kind do you use. In my opinion night sight are good in reduced light situations because they give you a visual reference of the front and rear sight and this can be helpful I teach my students not to shoot until they have identified the target. For this in a reduced light situation you need a flashlight, otherwise you are just shooting off into the dark. My (2) key night sigh points:


1. Excellent tool to locate the main aiming point of your handgun.
2. The sight is not the total answer to the problem; you must see and identify the threat first.

Remember: Night Sights assist you in aiming! However they do not assist you in:

 Identifying targets
 Navigating
 Searching


The flashlight is also useful for searching for subjects, as well as blinding them with light to shut down the OODA loop. As well as we said earlier target identification.

However there are (3) things one must learn before the refinement of techniques and tactics they are;

1. Reduce Telegraphing.
2. Be acutely aware of being in or creating a Backlit condition for you or your team.
3. Avoid blinding yourself or others.

Also realize that if you are in a gunfight in low or reduced light and you are using a flashlight that if the Bad Guy is armed and committed, they will fire directly into the source of light.

At that point you must distort your opponents perception of what is actually happening and where you are actual located. This is done by using the following:

1. Displacement
2. Angel of the Beam
3. Rhythm and duration

The reason this is so important is that you need to conceal your movement from your attacker. You need to train so that you can deploy both your flashlight and your handgun simultaneously and accurately. The shooter must be proficient with moving and shooting before they move on to moving and shooting in low light. Also remember running with a handgun or handgun and flashlight is bad.

I also stress one handed shooting and training with one hand and yes also working with the weak hand (Support Hand) as well. Because after all when you are shooting with a flashlight in your hand you are shooting one handed.

So with all that information let’s talk about Hand Gun Shooting Techniques in Low or Reduced Light. What follows are some examples of shooting Techniques that can be employed with a flashlight. However remember the Tactical Golden Rule what I am sharing with you is a way to do the technique not the way to do the technique. Review what follows with an open mind try each technique on the range but keep the one or ones that work best for you.
Rogers Technique: Light is held between the fingers and activated by pressing against palm of hand see picture below.



Harries Technique: Similar to Weaver stance, except the back of the support hand is pressed firmly against the back of the shooting hand. This enables the support hand to operate the flashlight while providing isometric stability to the shooting hand. See picture below.




Ayoob Technique: Simply thrust both the light and the gun out to approximate an isosceles position, with both thumbs touching. Ayoob teaches that if you place both thumbs together in horizontal alignment out to about seven yards the light will shine in the assailant's eyes while the handgun is indexed on his chest. See picture below.


FBI Technique: In the FBI technique, the flashlight is held away but much higher than the modified technique from the body with the non-weapon hand. The technique is simple but takes support away from the firing hand. See picture below.



Weapon Mounted Lights: I am not a huge fan of weapon mounted lights the advantages are Support hand can be free. It’s always there on the gun.

TheDisadvantage in my opinion are Searches, If you have a suspect at gunpoint how can you search for more suspects without taking the gun off the suspect?

In summary I would like to reiterate a few key points: (They are as follows)
Many flashlight techniques have been developed throughout the years. The ability to accurately engage targets in low-light conditions will always depend on the individual’s skill to shoot their weapon with one hand. An operator should learn a variety of flashlight techniques, and train on these techniques regularly. However, the foundation of low-light training will always be learning the skill required to shoot their weapon with one hand.

I have attempted to provide you nothing more than a skeleton of knowledge of how Flashlights & Night Sights work and a few Handgun Shooting Techniques. I urge you to do a few things:

1. Practice Shooting with one hand (both strong &support hand)
2. Practice shooting with your flashlight.
3. Draw, Move, Shoot, Communicate!
4. Shoot to stop the threat…or don’t stop shooting until there is no threat.
5. Get a quality flashlight carry it at all times.

We have a saying at my training school: "Conflict is inevitable; Combat is an option.
Always stay in condition yellow and when all else fails align the front sight and press the trigger and the button on your flashlight!”

Stay Safe & Shoot Straight!

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Old May 10, 2008, 09:43 AM   #19
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Working the gun business has its advantages. ken gets first pick.


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Old May 10, 2008, 11:56 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by DCJS Instructor
In my opinion night sight are good in reduced light situations because they give you a visual reference of the front and rear sight and this can be helpful.
Do you have (or do you know of) any quantitative data showing the difference in performance with & without night sights in various lighting situations? I'd love to see something like that and I'm afraid I'm going to have to generate my own which will be a lot of work...
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Old May 17, 2008, 11:08 AM   #21
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I'm a fan of being able to hit a man sized target without sights at all at the ranges one would engage targets with a handgun at.

If you can only use the night sights when its difficult to see your target, I would be more worried about positive id and other factors.

For these reasons I don't have night sights. I need to get me a good light.

They can also give away your position, if you're worried about things like that. I'm not.
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Old May 17, 2008, 12:55 PM   #22
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Based on my assessment, nightsights are perfect for you and anyone else in a situation that warrants firing accurately at unidentified targets.
JohnKSa

Even when I was in Iraq I NEVER fired at unidentified targets and our night time equipment is much better than tritium sights.....

Here in the USA I have no need for them. If time comes I need to ID a target I will use very bright white light that blinds and alows me to ID. If it is not a BG I do not fire, if it is then they just saw the light.

When we did hard knocks we used white light and the first reaction was to cover thier face, close eyes, and look away. If they needed shooting then they got what was coming to them, if not they were questioned and handled as needed from there.

Besides, we all should practice so much that when we point a pistol it should be like pointing your finger. If you need a visual aid to align your sights and practice alot, then your pistol does not fit you properly. At that point your problem is much bigger than a sight problem. Take it for what its worth, but thats my experiences with a dash of opinion.........
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Old May 17, 2008, 03:18 PM   #23
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Some interesting thoughts, opinions and experiences posted in this thread.

Not everybody is likely ever going to agree on the usefulness of 'enhancements' when it comes to the aiming devices we use on handguns. Not unexpected.

During the first 15+ years of my LE career I wasn't exactly a proponent of tritium night sights. This including working days, afternoons, evenings, indoors, outdoors, bright sunshine, bad weather, using flashlights, patrol car lights, ambient lighting, etc. etc..

Sometime between approx years 15-20 I developed a respect for the occasional benefits to be experienced when using night sights in some situations.

That's also about the same time I realized that these benefits were seemingly present, or lacking, to various degrees among the different manufacturer's night sight offerings. Why should that be surprising? Just like anything else, right?

I look at night sights as offering a balanced compromise.

They're useful in certain situations and circumstances.

Like all compromises, however, their 'benefits' may be negated in other situations, or even become 'disadvantages' in some situations.

For example, there are some production periods/designs where I do not find them as easily used as plain black or 3-dot (white) sights in conditions of outdoor/bright sunlight. This can vary with the user's vision a great deal, too. Two folks standing side-by-side may have exactly opposite opinions when trying the same weapon/night sight combination. They're each right ... for themselves.

Bottom line?

I don't think they were ever intended to be a 'replacement' for independent/supplemental light sources (like flashlights) and being able to clearly see your intended target.

In the third decade of my LE career I found many situations in which the night sights on my guns served a useful and immediately practical purpose ... for me.

In the 'right' circumstances, being immediately useful only ONCE might be well worth the investment.

When it came time to replace our aging inventory of issued weapons I suggested we consider the minimal added expense of ordering the weapons with night sights (new ones with nicely visible white rings surrounding the tritium capsule lenses ).

There weren't that many of our folks who even knew what night sights were when they learned their new weapons were equipped with them ... (come on, we're talking about cops, after all ) ...

But it also wasn't long before I started hearing feedback from some of our folks who discovered an immediate benefit to having them on their new guns, having had the opportunity to use them when weapons were drawn and presented during the course of their duties. Lots of pleased folks. Fine. That's why we decided to order them, after all. Seems to have worked out okay.

Nowadays a goodly number of my personally-owned handguns have been equipped with them, or ordered with them in the first place. Not all of them, by any means, but a goodly number of them.

I've come to prefer (not demand) to have the weapon chosen for potential night time HD to have at least a front post night sight, although I also keep at least one flashlight next to my sleeping mat. Night sights are nothing more than one type of enhanced sighting device.

It's still critical, however, to be able to SEE and IDENTIFY not only your intended target, but to understand what's 'downrange'. I prefer to emphasize using light sources for seeing what's out there beyond my weapon's muzzle ... and for employing that defensive/distracting (if only momentary) 'wall of light'.
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Old May 17, 2008, 04:10 PM   #24
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Meprolite dot on a Ruger SP101...made the gun a whole bunch easier to hit with in daytime shooting, too,
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Old May 19, 2008, 01:50 PM   #25
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I've tried it both ways ... and I prefer night sights. My home is in a very dark area, no outside light coming in except perhaps moonlight ... we keep a small nightlight on near the kitchen but otherwise the house is dark ... I've tried moving through the house with a black-sighted revolver and it was very difficult to align the sights on a target. When I got my 1911, I ordered it with night sights; the same exercise is far easier ... knowing where your front sight is is, in my opinion, worth the cost. I train with a Surefire light and it's a huge advantage, but I'm not shining the light on a target steadily ... find the BG, blind him, light off, use the night sight to find the front sight and fire ... that's certainly not scientific research, but it works for me and makes me feel more confident in a shooting situation, if I'm ever unlucky enough to be involved in one.
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