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Old April 16, 2008, 01:00 PM   #51
rantingredneck
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Tourist

Again read what I wrote.

I'm not talking about the way people are dressed. I don't care if you're wearing a purple tutu.

If you're wearing a purplue tutu and following me around Walmart while having a discussion with someone I can't see though, then we may have a problem .

I think you and I agree on more than we disagree here, though. Please understand though that my definition of "hinky" relies on behavior, not appearance.

I watch others actions and more importantly how they react to me.

An example:

If I'm walking down the street and someone crosses the street on an intercept course with me, I'll likely cross the street before they get to me.

Another example:

If I'm in a convenience store and I see someone acting shifty, fidgety, nervous, etc. or if I see behavior that could be interpreted as "casing". I leave. Nothing in that convenience store is worth me being there when the feces strikes the air circulation device.

I could care less whether that person is white, black, red, brown, yellow, or polka dotted. I could care less whether they're dressed as a biker or a hare krishna. I look at what they are doing.


I'm not going to draw down on you for wearing biker garb as I'm hoping you wouldn't on me for wearing Realtree All Purpose.

Again. Look beyond the appearance stuff. That's what I'm saying. I can't speak for others.
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Old April 16, 2008, 01:12 PM   #52
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An actual example:

Last Thursday I was on my way home from the range and stopped off for some milk and bread at the local convenience store. This place is out in the country, so it's not your typical "stop n rob" kinda place.

It had been cool earlier in the day but was now downright warm. I refused to put my jacket on just to go in the convenience store for bread and milk so I resigned myself to open carry for a moment.

As I was inside the store I notice another fellow, whose Harley was parked outside was also open carrying. (he had a Smith snubby, I had a Ruger).

I paid him no more attention after that. I paid more attention to the young fellow who kept eyeballing the Biker fellows weapon and mine. When the young guy got in line behind me at the register I turned my body so that my gun side was away from him. Did I think he was actually gonna snatch my weapon? Not really. Was it prudent to move since he was so fixated on it? I think so. Was the hinkiness such that I felt the need to leave my bread and milk there and go home? Not really.

Last edited by rantingredneck; April 16, 2008 at 01:36 PM. Reason: Grammar and punctuation are your friend.
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Old April 16, 2008, 01:29 PM   #53
The Tourist
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No, I think your actions were prudent--except for one of them.

You define the place as a "stop n' rob." I don't know if you're using a humorous epithet, or if the place was the magnet for past crimes. If there were crimes in the past, a jug of milk is hardly worth the risk.

As for the Harley, you darn near have to be a doctor, a professor or a hobbyist forum owner to afford a Harley. Knowing what I do about payments and repairs, my guess is that you ran into a dentist who likes leather.

As for firearm retention, it is your gun, and you are responsible for any and all actions and rounds fired while the firearm is in your care. For example, I can be arrested and sued even if I'm not home. If I leave a pistol out in the open, and a teenage cat burglar blows his head off, I'm still rsponsible.

I'm not sure that the law would care much if the pistol was snatched by a biker or a used car salesman.

Personally, and from experience, the used car salesman is a lot more bloodthirsty.

Edit: wearing a purplue tutu--I hit the gym everyday and I have lovely legs. If anyone could pull off that look and still gig an attacker with a knife, it's me.
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Old April 16, 2008, 01:34 PM   #54
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Quote:
You define the place as a "stop n' rob." I don't know if you're using a humorous epithet, or if the place was the magnet for past crimes. If there were crimes in the past, a jug of milk is hardly worth the risk.
No, I specifically said it's not your typical stop n rob.

Its actually called the Saxapahaw General Store.

Say that three times fast .

EDITED TO ADD:

I also should have mentioned that the kid eyeing the firearms was about a buck ten soaking wet and I go about 230 on a good day. The biker fellow also looked like he wasn't in the mood to have his gun snatched or have my snatched gun used on him. His presence was comforting. .
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Old April 16, 2008, 02:28 PM   #55
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Edit: wearing a purplue tutu--I hit the gym everyday and I have lovely legs. If anyone could pull off that look and still gig an attacker with a knife, it's me.
Thanx, I could have gone all day without that visual....even though it did give me a good laugh.
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Old April 16, 2008, 04:09 PM   #56
Capt Charlie
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Interesting thread, although I think a number of you are trying to assess a potential threat based only on one or two aspects. In reality, it's best to assess the totality of the circumstances.

I know BillCA is talking about visual cues from people, but let's expand that a bit, as the same person exhibiting the same cues will trigger alarms to a degree that's determined by the surrounding environment or circumstances.

In other words, a highly tattooed Hispanic male looking your way may not raise your condition to orange during lunch hour on Rodeo Drive, but that same person at night and right smack in the middle of MS-13 turf most probably will.

Let's assign this a points system: 80-100 points puts you in condition red, 60-80, orange, and so on.

Location: Upscale mall in Upper Arlington, Ohio = 1 point. Certain areas in East Cleveland, OH = 9 points.

Time of day / Lighting: High noon = 2 points. Well lit area at night = 4 points. Dark or poorly lighted urban area = 8 points.

Clothing: Business suit = 2 points. Hoodie with gang graffiti on it = 9 points.

And don't discount that "6th sense" that a lot of folks have. I believe that a "6th sense" is your subconscious analyzing all of the above when your conscious mind is centered on other things.

And so on. These are just for the sake of the discussion, but you get what I mean. Add up the total number of points to determine the proper "condition".

Now the problem with centering your attention on only one or two factors is a form of tunnel vision. When you focus too much on a person's eyes or dress, for example, other clues that might make a critical difference go by the wayside.

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They were The Blue Knights MC.
There's probably some here who aren't familiar with them, Tourist. To all, the Blue Knights are a nationwide motorcycle club made up exclusively of commissioned law enforcement officers. (And just for trivia's sake, Tourist, did you know there is a nationwide motorcycle club made up of retired LEO's? Know what they call themselves? The Retreads . (seriously!))
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Old April 16, 2008, 04:28 PM   #57
Hoss 48
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Threats

Well I'm guilty of using my peripheral vision when someone is behind me so I can check them out without being to obvious. Clenched fists of someon approaching is usually a good sign. Alot of cops have tatoos but most departments dont allow them to go below sleeve length, slightly above the elbow. I guess the biggest point you make is it can be anyone. Nowdays everyone has a gun even kids, and Ive seen old ladies and other women who conceal knives and arent afraid to use them. So it could be your typical gangster or the crazy old lady that missed her meds that morning. Usually you can tell if someone is just trying to get attention or they are looking for a fight. Watch out for the quiet ones, theyre probably going to rob you. The best way is just not to put yourself in the position of being a victim. Dont walk down any dark alleys alone, if you know what I mean. The best defense is surprise, if you notice someone following you or staring you down, dont let them know you noticed. Most of the time they're looking for an easy victim, they dont want to make it difficult. Hope it helps.
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Old April 16, 2008, 05:12 PM   #58
The Tourist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rantingredneck
His (the biker's) presence was comforting.
I had to read that a few times to actually comprehend what I was seeing. That shows that stereotypes are incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Charlie Clothing
Business suit = 2 points. Hoodie with gang graffiti on it = 9 points.
In that case, my friend, I could have gotten closer to you than the wannabee. As you know, I wore business suits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentHitz
a purplue tutu--Thanx, I could have gone all day without that visual.
Sorry to hurl your cornflakes. But consider this: you have to have a real grip on your masculinity to wear a purple tutu in a gun forum.
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Old April 16, 2008, 05:23 PM   #59
SilentHitz
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But consider this: you have to have a real grip on your masculinity to wear a purple tutu in a gun forum.
I'll have to give ya that one for sure LMAO
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Old April 16, 2008, 05:40 PM   #60
The Tourist
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This is about the time that a good laugh is needed. By the end of the day, the OP--in this case BillCa--and I are still allies, we just are on different sides of the debate. That's the point of a forum.

The biggest benefit this particular thread has, in my opinion, was that this was not a cut and dried issue. Instead we had factions from all walks of life providing their slant. In that case, I had a blast of a good time.

And hopefully, we learned a few things. There is no magic devining rod on this issue. Clearly, making condition yellow a part of your regimen while solidly keeping your fears in check will provide real gains in safety and security. A paranoid loose cannon does no one any real good.

I can't wait for the next good debate.
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Old April 16, 2008, 07:16 PM   #61
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In that case, my friend, I could have gotten closer to you than the wannabee. As you know, I wore business suits.
But then, you're not one of the guys I should be worried about, right?

Quote:
There is no magic devining rod on this issue.
Exactly. There are no absolutes here. All you can do is take an educated guess, with no guarentees.
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Old April 17, 2008, 11:18 PM   #62
BillCA
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Exactly. There are no absolutes here. All you can do is take an educated guess, with no guarentees.
Precisely correct. As you go through your daily life you make educated guesses about all manner of things. Including whether or not someone deserves a little closer look or may be a higher safety risk.

My goal was to find out if anyone had specific criteria that would set off their alarms. If I'm in my local mom & pop grocery store and the guy ahead of me is fidgety, I do a quick check. Are his actions because he's in a hurry and the person at the counter is slow? Are his actions due to maybe needing the restroom? Any conspicious bulges around the waist? Pockets? However, my alarms will be jangling if he has tattoos on the back of his neck or all over his arms.

Profiling? Stereotyping? Sure. Experience says that criminals tend to dress a certain way. Few muggings are committed by perpetrators wearing a Hart Shaffner and Marx suit. And I'd guess it is fairly rare for a liquor store to be robbed by a man in a tuxedo. This doesn't mean every young male wearing baggy clothes is going to be a criminal or a gangbanger. But given a choice between watching a pair of 22 year olds, one wearing slacks, dress shoes and a polo shirt and one wearing baggy clothing and a hoodie... yeah, Mr. Wannabe bad-boy gets more looks. If only because the baggies might better conceal a weapon.
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Old April 17, 2008, 11:30 PM   #63
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Quote:
Let's assign this a points system: 80-100 points puts you in condition red, 60-80, orange, and so on.

Location: Upscale mall in Upper Arlington, Ohio = 1 point. Certain areas in East Cleveland, OH = 9 points.

Time of day / Lighting: High noon = 2 points. Well lit area at night = 4 points. Dark or poorly lighted urban area = 8 points.

Clothing: Business suit = 2 points. Hoodie with gang graffiti on it = 9 points.
Caps invented the..................

HINKYMETER!!!! (TM!!!)

Like in...So I was walking along the Brooklyn docks at 3:30 am when all of a sudden my HINKYMETER TM hit a thousand as I spied the alien looking lizard feeding on a bum........

or

As I walked into Wolfgang Puck's for Brunch, my HINKYMETER TM was on -2 as I spied all the beautiful people...Hey Mick, great tour, muaaaah buddy, Brittney's waiting for me, ta ta


WildthehellwithcolourconditionsthatsninjathehinkymeterTMisscientificAlaska TM
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Old April 18, 2008, 10:05 AM   #64
Boris Bush
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BillCA

Would you expect a woman holding a baby to rob a store? It happend just a week or two ago.

Its ok to look out for the ones most likely, but if someone walks into the stop and rod in a tuxedo...... That is out of place! A thug looking kid is not out of place in a stop and rob.

Criminals are crafty and every person needs assessing, not the way they dress or look.

Not one person here knows exactly how it will go down if they ever have the displeasure. If they think the badguy will stand squared off at 7 yards and let you lay it to him without moving while you stand in the open and place your shots perfectly, then thats too bad. For the few that have most will tell you it went nothing like they thought it would or ever practiced for.

Since this is a "family" oriented sight I will not even get into my first time, because war is a little different than civilian defense. What I will say is The "scenario" was not ever practiced or even one would not think it could go down like it did. What gets you through it all is situational awareness. Know where you are going, where is your next available cover, use the fundamentals and violence of action is all that will save you. When you decide to use lethal force you can not doddle around and think about it.......... Get the job done or be a victim.

Point of my post. Do not label certain "groups" as non threatening, it will come back and bite you in the butt in the end if you don't
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Old April 18, 2008, 11:13 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Boris Bush
Point of my post. Do not label certain "groups" as non threatening, it will come back and bite you in the butt in the end if you don't
And it's well said. In fact, I think it ranks up there with racial profiling as not only being fundamentally racist, but patently erroneous. You cannot even use it as a barometer, defending it by stating it's "usually true." While you're busy in condition orange with the guy in baggy pants, the mafia mechanic sipping a demitasse blows your head off.

And we all know it's true.

The most decorated soldier of WWII shouldn't have even been a soldier. Audie Murphy was both too young and too short to pass qualifications.

The most dangerous man on my turf of Milwaukee wore a suit that cost more than my Dad's car.

The most dangerous biker I know is 63 years old--and is on heart medication.

The sharpest knife I own has a blade of 1.5 inches.

My wife chews the bullseyes out of targets with an old Charter Arms Bulldog .44 SPL. Except for her's being nickel plated, it's the same model as the Son of Sam's.

My current motorcycle has its roots in 1936. Unless you have a Hayabusa, I wouldn't drag race it.

There might not be Angels who are CMA, but there are CMA who used to be Angels. I would respect all of those Bible-bangers, just in case.

My point is that stereotypes shouldn't even be stereotypes. There never is an archetypical type of anything. There's only one Brett Favre, there's only one Sonny Barger. And clinging to some hacked article in a gun rag is never, ever going to keep you safe.

There's a very good reason why people say that your brain is the most dangerous weapon.
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