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Old April 14, 2008, 04:43 PM   #26
rampage841512
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WA - Please define "hinkiness". Your definition may not match mine or others.

From an earlier post by meself

WAs Rule of Life 44 (U) 6

After training or extensive life experience, one recognizes a concept in people known as hinkiness, which concept is defined as a variety of factors that raise an awareness of potential danger. The factors that can render a person "hinky" include, but are not limited to, race, creed, colour, sex,ocupation, age, mode of dress, possessions, body language, time of day, geographic location and any other usual or unusual factor that alone, or in combination, make a reasonable observer concerned, suspicious, alarmed or alert.

Two black kids horseplaying on a basketball Court are not hinky. One black kid wearing a hoody, loitering outside a conveneince store at 3am and continually touching his waist is hinky.

WildweareontosoemthinghereyesAlaska TM
This is how I do it too.
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Old April 14, 2008, 04:47 PM   #27
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I still would like to see the look on Pilot's face if he was attacked, screamed for help and found me coming to his rescue.
Maybe the same reaction at the sight of my sister. She wears leather when riding her Harley, and carries a 469 S&W...has tats too.
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Old April 14, 2008, 06:32 PM   #28
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CMA? I must have missed the definition. Thx
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Old April 14, 2008, 06:40 PM   #29
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CMA?
Christian Motorcycle Association....at least that's the organization in my state.
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Old April 14, 2008, 06:50 PM   #30
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WA, perfect explanation of "hinkiness". That hinky feeling was put in us for a reason!

Some of you guys that look at tats, longhair, biker looking... please don't shoot me. I may look a little greasy and haggard and dirty from ridin' a ways. I too wear a Christian motorcycle ministry patch. I know to most, a back patch is a back patch, but please since you're paying such close attention to everything, look a little harder. Most bikers don't want a hassle any worse than anyone else. Me... I watch clean cut folks in suits..... just can't trust'em

I do profile like most.. I lean heavily on WA's hinkiness factor....

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Old April 14, 2008, 07:37 PM   #31
rb4browns
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
there is no reason to read my post and think I was talking to you. The question was legit as is my answer
Quote:
Because it teaches error, especially to people who don't know the difference. I've lived in this city since 1968, and many of my clients are cops. Most of them are surprised that I'm a patch holder.

To that, what most people know about bikers come TV and the movies. Unless you've done something to threaten or antagonize a biker you are simply wallpaper. When I go a biker shop I don't "see" the citizens kicking tires.

And, of course, you could be dead wrong.

I was standing next to my bike once and I heard the sound of about fifty bikes with straight pipes. Out of nowhere came the wildest bunch of guys riding choppers you could imagine--right down to tons of chrome and tattoos.

As they sped by me, I saw their rags. They were CMA.

As you can well imagine, many younger guys come here. Chasing beer cans with a 1911 pistol is loads of fun. But let's not mislead them.

Some guys are going to read this read and unsnap their CCW pistols every time they see a customized Harley.
See Bill's definition of "hinkiness" and you will understand the context of my answer. Many, if not most bikers are lawyers and such trying to live out rebel fantasies on $40000 motorcycles, I understand that.

I also have known many black folks who dress in baggy clothes who are not in gangs.

The point is that dress is one factor I use in sizing up people. I'm really not worried (nor should you be) that the gentle readers of this forum will suddenly become gripped with terror at the sight of a harley riding dude because they read my post.

Cheers.

Last edited by rb4browns; April 14, 2008 at 08:39 PM.
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Old April 14, 2008, 10:39 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
the gentle readers of this forum will suddenly become gripped with terror at the sight of a harley riding dude
I don't think newbies will start doing anything just because they first read about it here.

However, it might confirm misconceptions they hold.

Let's face it, many people (myself included) come here for info based on the assumption that there are some very savvy hobbyists here with decades of experience. This also could cover our LEO members, our IPSC participants, and those who avidly study martial arts.

So when a professional hobbyist says, "There are reasons to fear bikers," or words to that affect, it confirms a negative feeling they might have.

As for "biker lawyers," you are right hands down. You can also throw in my favorite group, wannabees who are dentists. There are thousands of them in Dane County, where I live.

However, in the entire history of my MC, over a 35 year span, there are only 150 members.

In other words, if you're afraid of a guy in leather, you're probably afraid of a dentist.
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Old April 14, 2008, 11:44 PM   #33
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We generally don't have a problem with motorcycle gangs around here. If you see a group of motorcycles together in these parts, they are usually just a group of people with the common interest of riding bikes.

What I watch for in my small community is the meth addicts. These individuals, I think, plague many small towns in rural areas. The days of the moonshiner or the guy growing pot in his backyard are just about gone. Those people never bothered anyone but the government anyway. The meth heads however, are a more dangerous sort.

Quick story: An aquaintance of mine recently went to Arkansas to hunt turkey in the Ozarks. His party was approached by a game warden and warned not to come in contact with any of the locals in the area even in an emergency. Apparently, the paranoia associated with the drug makes them dangerous.
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Old April 15, 2008, 12:01 AM   #34
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First, to put the "biker" thing in perspective, let me say that I spent 20 years riding bikes - go-fast to touring bikes - and met a number of Harley riders who were simply rough gentlemen. My wife and I also took a Motorcycle Safety Foundation class and happened to be in the same class as Ralph "Sonny" Barger of Hells Angel's infamy and his wife Sharon. For all that's been written about Sonny, he was an absolute gentleman to everyone in the class and the biggest supporter of the most novice rider. If you met the man not wearing "biker" clothes, you'd think he was in construction or similar blue collar line.

This only illustrates that clothing and demeanor don't always tell you about the person's true character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris Bush
Looking for a criminal is a bad idea. Look at everyone. Look at their pants, shirt, shoes, hands, face, hat, gender, eyes, way they walk and their level of alertness. Do a play by play like them guys on the glow box when football is on.
[Warning: I'm going to use some stereotypes and rude characterizations in the following, only to make a point.]

In a sense, yes. But by scanning over a group of people you mentally "dismiss" various types. For instance, if you're walking in/out of Wally World for your cheap 9mm ammo, you dismiss the Waddling Welfare Whales as well as the almost any "breeder" family group with a passle of young kids. The ones who look like grandparents aren't likely to pose a high risk and you can dismiss most fortyish looking males pushing a shopping cart.

Even the teens dressed in baggy clothes can be rendered a low risk if you see them accompanying their parents and younger siblings.

On the other hand, younger males between about 15 and 30 who don't seem to be purposefully heading into the store or who appear to be leaving the storefront without any purchases are suspicious to me.

A lone individual who seems to be paying a lot of attention to people walking by or keeps looking into the store as if to see the activity inside, gets my attention. Glancing around quickly is another red flag.

A group of younger people - who may be mixed genders - if they are "hanging out", dressed in similar styles and colors, that sets off my radar. And if several happen to look your way at about the same time, the boatswain's whistle goes off to set condition orange.

In public venues I tend to look at faces, body language and hands.

Faces - sometimes you can tell the shopper or average joe from the ones with intent to do something. Quick head movements, darting eyes, tense jaws signal a higher emotional state than your average person. Wild, wide open eyes may be a signal of an impending attack (or a desperate search for a restroom or lost child). Flaring nostrils (to breathe more) indicate an elevated risk of attack.

Body Language - their gait, shoulder position, speed of movement can all indicate someone moving purposefully or with assertiveness. In a crowded mall, someone hurrying to a shop may walk quickly, blading their body through the crowd. Someone trying to flee without running will drop their leading shoulder as if ready to "block" or shove someone out of the way. In a less crowded mall, someone walking briskly but on the balls of their feet like a prizefighter is likely closing in on their selected victim, espeically if they're not looking for, or taking, less resistive paths.

Hands - Hands will hurt you. Specifically, fists and objects held in the hands will hurt you. Where are his hands? What's in his hands? Because the bag he has doesn't look big or heavy, doesn't mean it can't be used as a distraction tool. If you can't see both hands be prepared to act quickly.
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Old April 15, 2008, 12:28 AM   #35
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Excellent points Bill. Another guy to watch out for is the guy walking around a parking lot who doesn't seem to be going directly to his car. (zig-zagging through rows looking at/in other cars). Chances are he is up to no good.
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Old April 15, 2008, 03:33 AM   #36
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ActivShooter,

Absolutely. This falls under the category of anyone who doesn't seem to be purposefully entering the building from the parking lot, or who leaves the store without any purchases and doesn't seem to be walking towards an intended destination.

Normally when someone comes out of a store and has forgotten where they parked they pause for a moment. This usually occurs between the exit curbside area and the beginning of the parking aisles. You'll see that look on their faces that says "You dips**t, you fogot where you parked." While they're looking around for their car.

Many retail stores have in-house security folks. If you see something suspicious and tell someone on staff "Get me your security people, fast." they usually call someone to see you. The retailer does not want bad PR or lost sales if something happens in their parking lot. Their security people can watch the person and call the PD if necessary.
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Old April 15, 2008, 10:42 AM   #37
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I believe what we are discussing is "caution" not the justification of condition orange. In that debate, I'll reluctantly nod my head 'yes.' But with some very real hard and fast conditions.

My first trip out on a Saturday morning is the bike shop for free hot dogs or chili. I will also hang out with numerous others. We will congregate. Hey, guess what we're doing:

"the right of the people peaceably to assemble"

Now, put yourself in my shoes. I'm admiring someone's chrome or engine mods and I see some Junior John Wayne slip his hand inside his coat. I hear a 'snap' or the rip of velcro.

Now what do you think I'm going to do? Bet's off, folks. I'm go to verbally, and ernestly inform my little group that the guy behind us just unsnapped a pistol.

Now we're the ones who are going to be cautious.

As a fellow citizen, I have the right to assemble. If you don't consider the conditions something you can tolerate, than simply leave the area.

I also second BillCa's comment on bikers he has met. About three years ago we had two or three Angels at a club function at our clubhouse. I believe we drank beer and had a "Bikini Bike Wash."

But I debate this for one reason. If you can be wrong about me, then you can be also be wrong on the stimuli that produce condition orange. And that leads me to a much bigger problem.

That being the problem is you.

When you see meth dealers, Angels, muggers, bank hold-up men, Mafia mechanics and professional clowns at every intersection, it's not their fault--if they are there at all. You have to re-define your reaction to Cooper's color code of action.

Just pick up your groceries and leave the area. Let the bikers eat hotdogs.
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Old April 16, 2008, 12:15 AM   #38
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Tourist,

Easy there bub. Rub yourself down with some lanacaine and desensitize a bit. No one is really declaring time to go ballistic.

There is another, older, thread that deals with the signals people give off just before they start a fight or an attack. That's not what we're discussing here.

My desire is to find out what methods other members use to identify people who are a potential threat. How do you pick one or two people out of a dozen or more that bear closer scrutiny?

If you enter your favorite grocery store about 11pm and there are about a dozen people, what kinds of things would cause you to heighten your awareness or slightly alter your plans? What would it be about the people themselves that would provide you the "clues"?

Oh... and let's exclude the obvious, like the guy moving from till to till emptying them into a bag.

Oh... and Tourist... You've obviously never ridden a bike and kept your "clear" glasses in a Ray-Ban eyeglass case on your belt, have you? That snap sounds suspiciously like a holster snap. My ex's cell phone holder used a velcro strap to keep it from getting loose.
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Old April 16, 2008, 01:06 AM   #39
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First off, I don't wear Ray Bans.

However, I think your response demonstrates my point. (BTW, I wasn't angry when I wrote the last post--just playing my favorite game of "turn-about.")

One of the things I've learned on boards like this is that the guys all feel they're the heroes and the good guys. However, taking a map of the USA, you'll find half of the states are blue. To 50% of the population firearms hobbyists are paranoid whack-jobs.

The concept of assessing is not a shift from yellow to orange. It's a commitment to a lifestyle. I sit in a restaurant in the position of the best visual advantage. I look at the crowd. Then I order a sandwich.

I'm not playing a uber game of Wolfenstein, I'm being aware. And ordering that sandwich.

The problem with some of the key points in this thread is that assessment has become a murky mix to approval. The guys in baggy pants might be musicians on their way to a gig. And as I have stated, those "bikers" might even be ministers on the way to a Bible class.

From there it's a banana-peel slip to who should be watched and why.

But there's a mirror to that idea that many firearms hobbyists do not wish to see. That being, to others, they are the ones to be watched. In fact, I've read quite a few threads in gun forums on "mall ninjas."

At the end of the day, it is not the job of a self-appointed hobbyist to judge my clothing, my mannerisms, my movements or even my political affiliation lapel pin.

In fact, we have discussed the word "hinkie." If I saw some mall ninja wandering around in poor fitting clothing using surveillance techniques to watch the crowd, I'd call the real police.
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Old April 16, 2008, 08:25 AM   #40
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Every unknown person is a potential threat, especially in places where low lifes frequent like seedy bars, drug infested neighborhoods and large city down town areas.

Like the saying goes, "Be nice but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
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Old April 16, 2008, 08:30 AM   #41
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First of all, WA's definition of "Hinky" and mine are similar. Sometimes it's hard to even put a finger on why something you see is "hinky" but you know it when you see it.

Quote:
I tend to observe people who are observing other people.
+1 on this too.

Follow the eyes. I pay attention to those who are paying attention. Especially if they are paying too much attention to me.
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Old April 16, 2008, 09:28 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by rantingredneck
but you know it when you see it
This is why I use "turn-about" as a dating postulate. The actual fact is, no you don't know, and that fact might get someone killed.

For example, in my travels I met a motorcycle club. All of them were armed, most with two handguns. The majority had knives or some degree of martial arts training.

They looked scruffy, most of them rode customized Harleys, and if you acted up, they would all be on you. They were in fact, a very dangerous group of people. And I had I not ridden with them, I might have feared them.

They were The Blue Knights MC.

Now, one of the members here, Covert Mission, doesn't know the difference between an Angel and the CMA. That's very normal, not many outside our circle do know.

And that goes across the board. If we were asked to describe a British secret agent, a gansta, a Mafia made-man, a 1% outlaw or a working cowboy, most of us would use many of the same adjectives--because most of what we know about these people come from fiction.

Do you know what a real biker looks like? Well, he wears a three piece Armani or Dior suit, he is college educated, he is called upon to reconstruct failing companies with his knowledge of finance, he's a Christian, he's been married for twenty-eight years and doesn't cheat, and he does not do street drugs. If you met him on the street, he would look like a banker. Oh, and he knows how to kill you with a shiv.

That's how I looked for three decades.

How's your "hinkie" radar doing now?
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Old April 16, 2008, 09:44 AM   #43
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The reality is that if you mistakenly do something to **** of a Hell's Angel or Pagan or other one-percenter, they'll beat the cr*p out of you and possibly kill you. They might decide to do so just for the heck of it or to steal your bike.

I'm sure outlaw bikers can be polite. Many of them are also stone-cold killers.

If you choose to dress like one-percenter, that's your choice. I'll give you a very wide berth.
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Old April 16, 2008, 09:57 AM   #44
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M1911, even I do that. The point of my side of the debate is letting the stereotypes dictate our actions.

I mentioned "working cowboys." Most people might mention spurs and a wad of "chaw." In Madison at the UW veterinary college, that cowboy probably has a doctorate in medicine.

And at the very center of my concerns is our discussion of firearms and enumerated rights. I think we pass judgement on too many folks who are none of our concern.
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Old April 16, 2008, 10:14 AM   #45
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How's your "hinkie" radar doing now?
Look beyond the motorcycle stuff for a minute. I know it's got your dander up but set it aside.

Read what I wrote.

Sometimes you just get a feeling about someone, due to their behavior, not appearance (I could care less about appearance, I look at behavior). Sometimes it may just be something you can't put your finger on. When I get that feeling I decide it's time to be somewhere else.

There have been times where I've told my wife "lets go" when we're in a shopping mall or store, because of how someone was acting. She knows me well enough to know that when I say "let's go" we go. I don't care if Tide Detergent is on sale or not. .
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Old April 16, 2008, 10:44 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by rantingredneck
I know it's got your dander up but set it aside.
Actually, it's not. However this is one area where I can contribute. As you know, I know absolutely nothing about shotguns.

I do know about stereotypes. During Harley's 100th Anniversary, I saw a sign outside a hotel that said "Bikers Welcome." I mentioned to my wife that this sign was the first I'd ever seen in over thirty years.

And I believe turn-about is a good tool. For example, we often debate our rights in being denied access to certain stores while armed. We get edgy when we see signs that say "No Firearms Allowed." And our collective dander is up because at the center of that view is the assumption that all firearms owners are reckless hillbillies.

Any court or lawyer will tell you that an eye witness is the worst evidence used in a trial. Most people cannot judge distance, and they see what they want to see.

This idea of "hinkie radar" is wrong more times than it is right. And no matter how learned a cop is in "going with his gut," he still has to produce evidence. You still have to get probable cause for a subpoena.

Most of us are not trained as professionals. Few of us are sworn officers. And truth be told none of us should use a stereotype and "hinkie radar" to do anything but leave the area, as you correctly implied.

You are not John Wayne or an avenging angel. Your opinion of my jacket and the way I dip a hotdog in ketchup when among friends means less than nothing to me.

Now, I don't mean that in a negative way. If you ask me a question or need my opinion, then you should be prepared for the honest rendition. I listen to you on the subject of shotguns because I need knowledge when I have little.

But this is one topic where we should all engage discussion with a clear head. And frankly, I don't think I would acting like a good TFL forum member if I didn't point out the down-side of this radar issue. Guessing wrong or acting like a showboater can get you in trouble.
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Old April 16, 2008, 11:15 AM   #47
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Tourist, I think you're right on in page 2.

But there's something you said earlier in the thread that makes me uneasy:

Quote:
The eyes are the windows to the soul.
I dont want to extrapolate on something you did not say but...

...if someone is trying to engage eye contact at random in a public place he becomes the one that I need to be careful about. More so if he is dressed like the guy that dont want to be noticed...
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Old April 16, 2008, 11:39 AM   #48
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Oli, I stand by what I said. Obviously I am not going to ignore something that is clearly a need for condition orange. However, a lifestyle where condition yellow is a learned behavior seems to be more prudent.

And, BTW, this has been an excellent thread. We all live this every minute we are out in the world.

But let's expand on that "eyes and soul" comment. If I'm eating that hotdog and laughing, you have no real provocation to go to orange.

However if a guy in a nice suit starts reacting to every move you make, you should adjust to orange. Could be a cop with a vague description of a suspect, (I'm 5'11," white, average hair length, typical 'boomer moustache--in other words, the description of every serial killer on CSI) or the guy could be a Mafia hitman sent by a hostile wife.

For our debate, the guy in the suit is probably a more real threat. A more indepth assessment is the better choice rather than a snap decision based on a stereotype.

Besides, I'm too old for that "cloak and dagger" stuff. If I have a beef with you, I'll come and tell you. Stalking your restaurant seems like such a waste of time on a sunny day for riding.
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Old April 16, 2008, 11:55 AM   #49
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haha, fair enough.

I'm a northern frog, excuse me if I wasn't clear. What I was trying to say is this: we try to be 'aware' so we dont get in trouble in the first place. But, there are things we might do in the process that will do exactly the opposite. Being too aggressive with 'eye contact' is one of them.

I dont say and dont think you do it. It's just for the record, it's something to think about.
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Old April 16, 2008, 12:04 PM   #50
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Oli, but you mention a good point. If you're a younger guy and the fellas here tell you to be vigilant with your CCW responsibilities you take it as very serious advice.

I walk into a restaurant, sweep the place in a gaze, find an area where I can see the door and never think of the topic again. Foremost, I like to eat, however, I'm not a sensei or a guru or a mercenary or a hitman. I'm a hungry guy with his wife who needs realistic safety and security.

Clearly, there's a tipping point. In that regard, I look to the writing of Col. Jeff Cooper and the entire pragmatic issue of color codes. It's viable, it works, it's a good reminder of your needs and it defines what moves you should--or shouldn't--take in public.

Additionally, color codes snap me back to reality if I start falling for stereotypes.
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