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Old May 23, 2008, 11:47 AM   #26
raimius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineCorpsAT
For those CCW carriers who contemplate the "what if" scenarios, remember that it was a CCW holder in the church in Colorado who took down the perp... not an LEO. So, yes, it could be you one day, faced with the decision of what you will do with an active shooter in your midst. Be prepared (train in advance) and for goodness sake, if you have a legal permit to carry..... bring your weapon with you at all times (legally).

Actually it was the shooter that dropped himself in that case.
She "dropped him," then he shot himself in the head.
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Old May 23, 2008, 06:01 PM   #27
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IDPA states that it is not tactical training. I agree. There is no substitute for force on force training. But I think IDPA does get a shooter accustomed to using/seeking cover, shooting on the move, and fast reloads.

The tactics that are forced on you (the different kinds of reloads or forced shot sequence) are debatable the general principles of use cover, shoot on the move, try to hit what you are shooting at, are pretty important. The IDPA classifier consists of three stages that focus on long distance shooting, shooting on the move, shooting in tactical sequence, mozambiques, head shots....the list could go on. I think those three courses of fire are a good test for your abilities.

It would be cool to have some reactive targets and paintball guns shooting at you during the course of an IDPA match to further simulate stress but there's only so much training you can do.

I know a guy who has taken every homesite training course offered (maybe exaggerating, but he's taken a lot). And he preaches one of the home defensive scenarios where instructors and students are in a house, both armed with paintball guns. And you clear the house and yard while getting shot at by the instructors. It's still basically just a game like IDPA but it gets your brain to function as it should.

My my opinion.
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Old May 24, 2008, 09:10 AM   #28
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Sigma,

I was recently at some training for new Army officers, and we spent tons of time clearing buildings (McKenna MOUT site, if you're familiar with Ft. Benning). We looked and functioned great with blanks, but as soon as they gave everyone simunition (OPFOR included), things started to fall apart.

Its a lot easier for a "one" man to hesitate when there are rounds actually coming at him. Imagine it with real bullets!
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Old May 24, 2008, 10:41 AM   #29
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A small but significant correction...

Either you serve in the military, or are a civilian.

Law enforcement are civilians. The erosion - even linguistically - between the military and law enforcement can lead nowhere healthy for this nation.
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Old May 26, 2008, 01:02 PM   #30
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Ask Sweatnbullets if his training could help one in this situation.
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Old May 26, 2008, 07:24 PM   #31
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Law enforcement are civilians.
Depends. There are about as many recognized sources that take one view as take the other. Some sources also include fire fighters in the category.
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Old May 26, 2008, 09:07 PM   #32
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The woman who dropped the guy in the Colorado shooting was not just a lady with a CCW. She is a former Minneapolis police officer.
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Old May 26, 2008, 09:53 PM   #33
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...former...
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Old May 27, 2008, 05:46 PM   #34
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No biggie, but it was said she was a civilian, and she now is, but for whatever it's worth, she's not your typical civilian, either. Supposedly she was fired from the Minneapolis PD for lying about cursing out a bus driver. I think she's redeemed herself.
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Old May 31, 2008, 11:55 PM   #35
workinwifdakids
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“Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.”

Sir Robert Peel

I submit this not as a threadjack, but simply as a polite footnote for all to consider. Respectfully,...
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Old June 1, 2008, 03:10 AM   #36
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What a CCW is NOT

A CCW is simply a waiver from the prohibition against carrying a concealed firearm - if your area has such a prohibition. That's it. The law is a gun law, which deals with purchasing, possessing and carrying weapons. It (CCW) does not deal in matters of using it to shoot people. That isn't mentioned.

Then there is Self-Defense Law, a whole other area of law, which also does not mention shooting or any other technique/manner of self-defense or instrument/tool used. Whether you kill someone with a gun that's legally permitted under gun law, or a gun not legally permitted, or use your hands, or a kitchen knife, or a brick, tree branch, whatever, it's the same law. And it's the same for all people, CCW'd or not. SD Law solely addresses the requirements necessary for an act to legally rise to a SD Act, which is a Justification for Homicide and which is available to anyone.

In other words, you can carry a gun and that's it; other than that, you're just like everyone else. Everyone in the country enjoys protection from murder charges or conviction if it is valid SD act.

So, some assumption that a CCW gives you rights or obligations to fight terrorists is mistaking your status, you're just a guy moving through the day like everyone else. Unless the terrorists were imminently about to take your life or that of another, you should do what anyone else would: call the cops who have the legal means to combat them, the proper training, the tools etc. and get out of the way.

We are civilians, not pseudo cops, swat teams or anything remotely similar.
-------------------

Besides:

Quote:
Don't Be Terrorized
You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder
Ronald Bailey | August 11, 2006


...So how do these common risks compare to your risk of dying in a terrorist attack? To try to calculate those odds realistically, Michael Rothschild, a former business professor at the University of Wisconsin, worked out a couple of plausible scenarios. For example, he figured that if terrorists were to destroy entirely one of America's 40,000 shopping malls per week, your chances of being there at the wrong time would be about one in one million or more.

Last edited by gvf; June 1, 2008 at 02:40 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old June 2, 2008, 11:59 PM   #37
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Depends upon my carry gun at the time

If I am carrying my Keltec P32 or COP 357 derringer I am not engaging anything past point blank to get me and others I care about away from the immediate area, I am not going hunting anyone with these guns.

If I happend to just have come from my local IPSC match and still wearing my custom 45 and plenty of ammo, then I might try taking the 50yd shot, otherwise I will just make it to the exit and let the swat team handle it.


Fortunatly the Active Shooter plans by police teams no longer involve hiding behind thier cars outside the school while they work out a plan and the children are dying inside.
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Old June 23, 2008, 06:21 AM   #38
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Carry enough gun!

I always kind of thought it was dorky to carry a lot of extra ammunition. As a matter of fact, I still kind of think its dorky. Its uncomfortable, its hard to hide, and it makes me feel like a mall ninja; but as soon as I began thinking about my role in an active shooter scenario, I started carrying extra ammo (usually).

What is the point of slipping a Airweight .38 (5 shots) into a pocket, if all of your shooting skills have been built around live fire range exercises, be it as a LEO. or a IDPA or IPSC competitor?

Living in Gods Country (USA) and his best state (Florida) we get to carry most anywhere, and the mode of dress (not that I wear a dress) Florida casual, stiff cloth, hang outside the pants shirts, means you can duplicate your skill level, shooting wise, with your go to Church or Publix trips with correct weaponry, and spare magazine's.

Fluctuating between a G17 or G19 as match pistols has let me know that the handling and accuracy are the same. The match pistols stay in that role (in the safe otherwise) the get to carry every day pistol is a Glock 19, with a go too magazine on the other side of the belt being a G17 one.

Same trigger weight, 5 lbs, same sight's TruGlow, same holster, same belt.

I am an old guy, but fit, in a Mall or shopping center, or Grocery store, or the odd movie house, or my favorite Pancake house, there is always two of us!
My Wife and I, a physical threat to the love of my life, will get immediate, and appropriate response, be it a look! Done, a hand strike, Done! or whatever it is deemed by the committee of one (ME!) to be the appropriate response.

A couple of years ago I completed a one week long SWAT course, we did the various active shooter(s) exercises, we had a real School as a class room! I am a good shot, accuracy being my forte, in doing various jobs that led in to physical violence in the past, I know I can go from nice to maniac (controlled one) in a heart beat. But having said all that, we are leaving the sound of the gunshots behind, my G19 holstered, my Wife hanging on to my belt with two hands! my hands empty.

Forgot to mention one thing... Blue Tooth ear piece locked on to 911!
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Old June 23, 2008, 10:06 AM   #39
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I just read this thread for the first time. I first want to commend the original poster for having a warrior mindset and seeking training that will save other's lives (not just his own). By his comments, He stands on the thin blue line along with the police.

I'm surprised at the number of posters who advocate doing nothing even though you are armed. Women and children being slaughtered in the mall and you run and hide even though you have a means to stop the murderer? Worried about legal repercussions while a monster is roaming around, destroying human life?? It's time more non-LEO folks took up the warrior mindset. I'm a police officer and I advocate more armed and trained law abiding citizens. Because, the hard core facts are this: many lives will have already been lost by the time the police get there. As it has been on all but about two instances in this country.

If you don't have the weapon and the training then by all means don't engage. But if you do, then engage. Going after an active shooter is still gunfighting but instead of being defensive, you're on the offensive. Ninety nine times out of 100, it will be a single shooter. Take the fight to him, put him on the defensive and put him down with accurate fire. You don't need to be a police officer to train for this. Go to a range, set up multiple targets at varying distances then shoot (and aggress on the targets if your range situation allows it. ) Work with whatever you carry concealed. Practice reloads, use of cover and malfunction drills. If you don't have a range, then make your gun safe and use your empty house or apartment to dry fire and train in. It's all about mindset: either you are a sheep or a sheepdog. There is no in between.
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Old June 23, 2008, 10:29 AM   #40
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i cant agree with a blanket statement like that...we are NOT LEO and have no business trying to do their job. will i defend myself and my family but have NO business going after the BG across the mall.

that does not mean that if i am in the middle of the soup that i wont defend those around me...but i cant advocate going after the BG.
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Old June 23, 2008, 09:48 PM   #41
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Nothing changes

bds32

Nice to think that way, but, a BIG but, the only person I care about in that Mall is Pauline! Period!

Having let you know how I feel, if I do a quick peep around a corner, and see an active shooter, who has just shot a small child and is reloading, he is shot, and his buddy as well! A lot!

If he/she, is across the upper level, pointing down, and indiscriminately shooting, a 40 yard shot, I am taking that shot(s), I can hit at that range.

You can not leave your Wife somewhere safe! and then go hunting, there is no where safe.
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Old June 24, 2008, 12:11 AM   #42
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LMS Defense has an EXCELLENT Active Shooter Response class.

Here's the aar's from my attendance:

http://ttellc.net/lmsasr.htm

Its worth the trip, costs and time. Seriously.
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Old June 25, 2008, 02:28 PM   #43
David Armstrong
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It's all about mindset: either you are a sheep or a sheepdog. There is no in between.
With my usual caveat about how silly and demeaning this whole "sheep and sheepdog" stuff is-- NONSENSE! I spent a fair amount of my life going into bad situations to help others, both LE and military. Nowadays, it's not happening. I maintain my skills and abilities in order to take care of me and mine, and feel confident that in most situations, me and mine will walk home afterword. Not a sheep, by any means. BUT--I will not put me and mine in grave danger in order to take care of others any more. So yes, I'm somewhere between target and protector, as are most people.
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Old June 25, 2008, 09:29 PM   #44
raimius
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will i defend myself and my family but have NO business going after the BG across the mall.
Pretty much my feelings. Would I defend myself/those around me? I sure hope so (skills aren't quite up to par, yet)! Would I (alone) go charging into a situation where the only information I had was the sound of screams and gunfire?...probably not (unless it was my job). Active shootings are going to be chaos. Is it heroic to go in and try to stop the shooter? OF COURSE! Is it wise?--that depends on the exact situation (which I will not try to predict).
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