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Old June 12, 2006, 06:28 PM   #1
shooter_john
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Suppressed SBR Question

I have decided that I pretty much have all of the guns that I "need" and maybe its time to jazz 'em up a little, but I have little knowledge of NFA rules and regs. If I were to build a 11.5 AR and I wanted to suppress it, would I need a tax stamp for both the supressor and the SBR or would one stamp cover the whole deal? Also, how much would I be looking at spending on a good durable suppressor? ( .223 of course, no full auto)
Thanks for any and all help!
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Old June 12, 2006, 06:46 PM   #2
smince
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Price, I'm not sure on. But I believe if a separate upper and suppressor, two stamps. Integral suppressor, one stamp.
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Old June 12, 2006, 08:31 PM   #3
James K
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I don't know about an "integral suppressor" but normally the NFA firearm is one tax and Form 4, the suppressor is another as it is an NFA firearm itself.

So, two stamps, two transfers.

If the suppressor is truly "integral", like the Ruger pistols with the turned down barrel, I don't know. I would call BATFE on that one, but I suspect the reply would be that the shell and internals of the suppressor make it separate and taxable, even if the normal barrel is used and the suppressor is not really detachable.

Jim
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Old June 12, 2006, 10:06 PM   #4
rkba_net
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Two tax stamps... even with an Integral suppressor.... years ago ATF let one get away with one stamp on the HK MP5SD's... but this is no longer the case...
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Old June 12, 2006, 10:09 PM   #5
DTakas
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Someone else will have to verify this but I think if you permanently attach the suppressor to the short barrel and bring the overall barrel/suppressor length to over 16" you will only need a stamp for the suppressor since if it's permanently attached technically you won't have an SBR.
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Old June 13, 2006, 10:20 PM   #6
rkba_net
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>Someone else will have to verify this but I think if you
>permanently attach the suppressor to the short barrel
>and bring the overall barrel/suppressor length to over 16"
>you will only need a stamp for the suppressor since if it's
>permanently attached technically you won't have an SBR.

This is correct.
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Old June 14, 2006, 08:48 PM   #7
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As long as your can doesn't disassemble from the muzzle end.
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Old June 15, 2006, 06:00 AM   #8
Hkmp5sd
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My HK MP5SD



One tax stamp for SBR/Suppressor and one for the auto sear.
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Old June 15, 2006, 07:08 AM   #9
shooter_john
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Thanks to all of you...

My questions are answered. I guess if I start saving now, by the time my son (he's due in 2 months) graduates from college I can get ME a can and SBR for his graduation!!!
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Old June 16, 2006, 02:38 PM   #10
AmesJainchill
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I do't think SBRs and suppresors are THAT expensive. If you supplied the SBR firearm, you might could get the whole package for maybe $3000? Certainly not more than $5000?
I guess it all depends on what you are turning into an SBR.
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Old June 16, 2006, 05:18 PM   #11
Zak Smith
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SBR'd AR-15 including stamp: $1000
Good suppressor + stamp: $800

Not bad at all.

My last Form 4 took 56 days.
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Old June 19, 2006, 12:45 PM   #12
444
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You don't mention if you already own the weapon but it sounds like you do own an AR now
.
When I decided to register an AR15 as an SBR, I already owned the AR15. The cheapest way to go short would be to simply rebarrel the upper you already own with a short barrel. This might cost you a couple hundred dollars. I bought a 14.5" Bushmaster barrel with a 1:7 twist at a local gun shop for a couple hundred. Bushmaster's website shows an 11.5" barrel for $225 http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/b.../abbl11.5a.asp . If you don't have the tools to change the barrel, I doubt that it would be hard to find someone local to you that does. AR15.com has a "Hometown" section of their board. So we have $225 for the barrel and $200 for the stamp.

I bought an AAC M4-2000 suppressor for $650 from Henry at Title II firearms in South Carolina and had it shipped to my local FFL. There is no reason to pay full retail for a suppressor and Henry sells at good prices. So we now have $650 for the can and $200 for the stamp. The M4-2000 is one of the best 5.56 suppressors on the market both in terms of performance and durability. It is rated for unlimited full auto fire.

That's $425 + $850 = $1275


By the way, you don't register the upper, you register the lower.
FWIW, I bought an LRM M169 integrally suppressed 9mm AR15 upper. It required two tax stamps and is considered an SBR.

Instead of saving up, simply buy the stuff as you get the money. When you get $200, send in the Form 1 and register your AR as an SBR. When you get another couple hundred, buy the 11.5" barrel and install it. With the can, you are going to have to have all of that money at once: Can and tax stamp.
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Old June 19, 2006, 07:14 PM   #13
shooter_john
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Sounding better...

I indeed do already have an AR, two of them as a matter of fact. I guess that is a good idea as far as getting it "one piece at the time", and I would just go ahead and get a whole new upper for $300- $350 instead of spending $200 for a new barrel.
As far as pre-registering my lower, could I do that anytime, or do I have to have the SB upper on standby?

Maybe I can convince my wife to go back to work in a few years, that would really speed up this process! (And I was only kidding, I think I can save up $1000 in less than 18 years!)

One more thing, once I have the suppressor, I could put it on anything that was threaded to the same dimensions and was .223, correct?
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Old June 19, 2006, 07:27 PM   #14
444
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I agree that it is a whole lot nicer to have a new upper. That way, you can still use your longer upper if you so desire. I was just trying to point out that you don't have to come up with a lot of money at once; if that is an issue.

Once you register the lower as an SBR, it doesn't matter if you ever put the short barrel on it or not. I have three AR15 receivers registered as SBRs. Two of them have never been assembled: they are just bare receivers. And I have had the tax stamps for them for at least a year.

Yes, if you buy a .223 suppressor, it will work on any .223. However, if I was doing an AR15, I would not buy a screw on suppressor (my personal opinion only). I would buy one that attaches to a flash suppressor: quick on and off. My AAC requires a special flash suppressor (it comes with one, you can get more from AAC). The suppressor screws onto that flash suppressor using very course threads. The suppressor comes off and you still have a flash suppressor on the end of your barrel. There are other suppressors that go on a GI issue flash suppressor (but may not work with a civilian copy). So, you can quickly add or subtract the suppressor from your AR15 and put it on the other AR15 or another upper.

This is a good place to buy suppressors and see pictures of this kind of stuff (like the AAC Flash Suppressors I mentioned). You might also find a good deal on a short upper here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=7&f=118 This is where I bought all my suppressors (other than the first two). You simply have it shipped from them to your local FFL. I have also purchased uppers from this board.
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You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.
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Old June 20, 2006, 05:11 AM   #15
Hkmp5sd
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Quote:
I indeed do already have an AR, two of them as a matter of fact.
Be aware that ATF is of the opinion that if you have one regstered SBR AR-15 and a normal AR-15 receiver, you can have in your possession only one <16" upper. They consider mere possession of a second SBR upper and a non-registered receiver to be the same has having an assembled unregistered SBR.
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Old June 20, 2006, 08:43 AM   #16
shooter_john
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Thanks for the Help once again!

I guess my first order of buisness will be to get my lower registered, and then I'll start seriously shopping suppressors. Thanks again to all of you guys!
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Old May 28, 2009, 03:24 PM   #17
Hkmp5sd
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Quote:
Please take no umbrage, and yes I know this thread is extremely dated, but the remark was well after Thompson/Center v. United States (June 8, 1992) where the United States Supreme Court told the BATF they were full of bologna.
I'm quite fimiliar with that case and have been dealing with ATF and NFA items for over 20 years. ATF does not care about Thompson/Center v. US.

(Please note the date of this letter is 8 YEARS after the Thompson final ruling.)

Quote:
DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS
WASHINGTON, DC 20226

MAR 29 2000


903050:GKD
3311

Dear Mr. :

This refers to your letter of January 22, 1999, requesting information on the legality of possessing a registered full auto AR15 and also possessing one or more semiautomatic pre-1994 assembled AR15 rifles. You appended a number of specific questions relating to this subject which will be answered in the order received.

1. Is it legal to own both?

There are no provisions under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) or the National Firearms Act (NFA) that prevent an individual from possessing an AR15 registered machinegun and one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles at the same time.

2. If legal to own both, which spare parts for the registered gun can you also own?

Any weapon which shoots automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger meets the definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) of the NFA. An AR15 rifle which is assembled with certain M16 machinegun fire control components, and which is capable of shooting automatically is a machinegun as defined.

The definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. Thus, an AR15 rifle possessed with separate M16 machinegun components can meet the definition of a machinegun, if the rifle shoots automatically when the components are installed.

The fact that a person lawfully possesses a registered NFA firearm does not grant authorization to possess additional non-registered firearms. A person who possesses a registered M16 machinegun and a semiautomatic AR15 and a separate quantity of M16 machinegun components could be in possession of two machineguns.

We advise any person who possesses an AR15 rifle not to possess M16 fire control components (trigger, hammer, disconnector, selector, and bolt carrier). If a person possessed only the M16 machinegun and spare M16 fire control components for that machinegun, the person would possess only one machinegun.

3. Is it legal to use the upper receiver off of the semi-auto AR's on the registered AR if they are different lengths and calibers than listed on the Form 4's?

Before changing the caliber of a registered machinegun you should notify the NFA Branch in writing of the proposed change.

4. Can you have several short barrel uppers (less than 16 inches) for the registered AR and still own semi-auto AR's?

The definition of a firearm in section 5845 of the NFA includes a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. An individual possessing more than one short (less than 16 inches) barreled upper receiver for a registered AR15 machinegun along with one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles would have under their possession of control an unregistered short barreled rifle, a violation of the NFA.

5. If you change the barrel length or caliber do I need to notify your office if the change is not a permanent one?

This question was answered under Question 3.

We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry.
If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us.


Sincerely yours,


[signed]
Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/...f_letter90.txt


They say the exact same thing about having multiple short barreled uppers with a registered AR-15 SBR and/or an AR pistol and possessing other AR-15 rifles. Mere possession is enough to be charged with having an assembled unregistered firearm. As this letter states, if I purchase spare parts for my registered M16A1 and also possess an AR-15, I am automatically in possession of an unregistered machinegun. This is in direct violation of the Thompson ruling.

It is ATFs viewpoint that to meet the Thompson ruling, for every <16" upper you possess, you must have a legal lower (SBR/Machinegun/Pistol) for that upper. Having more <16" uppers than legal lowers to attach them to, plus having a semi-auto AR-15 rifle, places you in violation with an unregistered firearm. If you do not possess any semi-auto AR-15 rifles, you can own as many <16" uppers as your heart desires.
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Last edited by Hkmp5sd; May 28, 2009 at 03:37 PM.
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Old May 28, 2009, 09:02 PM   #18
444
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If you want to own multiple short barreled uppers and only have one registered lower, I can give you a cheaper method of staying legal.

Back when lowers were really cheap, I bought a lower and built it into an AR15 pistol. I did this strictly to hold a spare short upper legally. Because it is a pistol, it doesn't need to be a registered SBR to have a short upper on it. I even bought one that is specifically labeled from the factory as a pistol lower. I have never fired this lower and have no desire to fire an AR15 pistol. I bought it and put it together for no other reason than to hold a spare short upper.
Obviously this isn't cheap, but it is cheaper than registering another lower and far cheaper than the punishment for violating the NFA even if the thing about multiple uppers is retarded.
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You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.
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