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Old April 8, 2008, 04:29 PM   #1
TINCUP AL
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Log Book for your practice sessions ???

I know that police depts. keep a log on each officer's training and practice schedules, as it may be needed in the event they have to go to court due to a shooting. My question is would it be worth it for the regular CCW carrier to also maintain a log book on training, practice sessions, competitions, etc. , in the event that they would need to defend themselves in court due to a self defense shooting ? Is it something worth doing, or is it not really needed ?
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Old April 8, 2008, 06:11 PM   #2
dwatts47
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Well, though I'm not sure how a hand written, self updated log book would help.. I'm sure a range officer noticing often visits to a range and upstanding behavior could though.
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Old April 8, 2008, 09:58 PM   #3
Scattergun Bob
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talked to massad ayoob about this

I thought he would have the best opion, at least for me.
Mas,
Ran across this in the forum and it got me thinking, since I no longer have department documation maybe this is a good idea. I think we missed in Post Falls?
" know that police depts. keep a log on each officer's training and practice schedules, as it may be needed in the event they have to go to court due to a shooting. My question is would it be worth it for the regular CCW carrier to also maintain a log book on training, practice sessions, competitions, etc. , in the event that they would need to defend themselves in court due to a self defense shooting ? Is it something worth doing, or is it not really needed ?" TINCUP AL

His response;
Not a bad idea at all.
Catch you next time in Post Falls!
best
Mas

Tin cup, thanks for the idea, I'll use it if that OK with you.
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Old April 9, 2008, 09:00 AM   #4
TINCUP AL
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Scattergun Bob- Thanks for the reply. Mas Ayoob is exactly the person I was hoping would answer this question. I guess it wouldn't hurt to keep a log, and hope that you would never need it. I don't really see it being used against you, if you don't offer it up to the prosecutor in the first place. Thanks again.
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Old April 10, 2008, 09:54 AM   #5
Scattergun Bob
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Tincup

That's close to my thoughts. My old boss bored me to death with "If it did not get written down, it never happened." Perhaps, this is a good example of why that is important.

I have a fairly standard revolver practice regiment that over many years has somewhat kept the edge on my accuracy and speed, that seems easy to
document, I give that a try.

Keep thinking Tincup, we need clear thinkers not flamers to keep us all on the right course.

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Last edited by Scattergun Bob; April 10, 2008 at 09:55 AM. Reason: stupid spelling
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Old April 10, 2008, 09:57 AM   #6
Double Naught Spy
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Just what is the log book going to do to defend you in a shooting that isn't in the log book? How does a log book change the circumstances of the shooting?
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Old April 10, 2008, 10:51 AM   #7
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I think it is a very good idea to keep detailed records while a new gun is in the process of proving itself. After that, I again add to my notes if the gun is modified or I change ammo.
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Old April 10, 2008, 11:47 AM   #8
TINCUP AL
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The purpose of the log book would/could show that a person is serious about their training and attaining the skills necessary to carry/use their firearm with the utmost care and responsibility. Not just getting or doing the "minimum" to satisfy the requirements to get your CCW permit. It shows that you have gone above and beyond to get the most training and practice that you possibly can, and that you are more than capable in using your firearm to defend yourself or loved ones. This very issue has been brought up in court many many times, wether it involved a police officer or a civilian. The question would be asked, "what qualifications do you have that shows that you are trained and capable of carrying this firearm ? " I would much rather be able to show that I have gone above and beyond the minimum requirements, because it was "that" important to me, and I took it "that" serious, rather than "just" having the basics. Keep in mind that this is just my opinion, although I am glad to see that somone who I feel is very qualified (Mas Ayoob )also shares the same opinion.
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Old April 10, 2008, 02:37 PM   #9
Double Naught Spy
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Quote:
The purpose of the log book would/could show that a person is serious about their training and attaining the skills necessary to carry/use their firearm with the utmost care and responsibility. Not just getting or doing the "minimum" to satisfy the requirements to get your CCW permit. It shows that you have gone above and beyond to get the most training and practice that you possibly can, and that you are more than capable in using your firearm to defend yourself or loved ones.
After you have been in a shooting and shot your attacker, then you don't need training records to show that you are more than capable in using your firearm to defend yourself or loved ones because you already demonstrated this aspect. If you are in court, it isn't because of your training, but because there is some question as to the legality of your shoot and all the training in the world won't change whether or not your shoot was legal.


Quote:
This very issue has been brought up in court many many times, wether it involved a police officer or a civilian. The question would be asked, "what qualifications do you have that shows that you are trained and capable of carrying this firearm ? "
Baloney. First of all, if you are on trial, your lawyer isn't going to want you on the stand. Secondly, your qualifications to carry, if you are in a CCW/CHL state are indicated by your license....but this won't be an issue if you are qualified to carry, but if you were justified in your shooting. Again, your quals won't change the shooting.

Since when do you have to be "qualified" with a substantiated paper trail to defend your own life?

Quote:
I would much rather be able to show that I have gone above and beyond the minimum requirements, because it was "that" important to me, and I took it "that" serious, rather than "just" having the basics. Keep in mind that this is just my opinion, although I am glad to see that somone who I feel is very qualified (Mas Ayoob )also shares the same opinion.
While citing the hearsay appeal to authority you learned from this thread is great and all, explain how the records will affect the circumstance of a shooting.

If you are in court, there is something potentially wrong with the shooting such that the issue has gotten you to court. Hopefully it will be resolved in your favor, but I don't see how shooting records will resolve the issue. Are you sure those same records won't show how you, as a well trained firearms carrier, should have known better than to pull the trigger when you did? After all, with so much training, you should have been a better shot, known the law better, waited a little longer instead of shooting so soon, etc.
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Old April 10, 2008, 03:20 PM   #10
TINCUP AL
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Any shooting will result in you going to court,both criminal and civil, no matter if it was a "good" shoot or not. I just had a question, and I recieved an answer from someone who's opinion is held in high regard in courtrooms across the country, and not just on internet forums. I think you missed the point of the original question, but that is ok. Like I said, it was just a question. I have my answer. Thank you.
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Old April 10, 2008, 03:38 PM   #11
Mas Ayoob
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DNS, I have to respectfully disagree with you on several counts. First, all of us in the business have seen a number of absolutely clean shootings that were mischaracterized by an either clueless or politically motivated prosecutor, or much more commonly by a greedy plaintiff's lawyer, as something nefarious.

Second, the old lawyer's advice "Never put the defendant on the stand" is a tactic geared to guilty clients, who comprise the great majority of most defense attorneys' client bases. Most attorneys who defend a lot of wrongfully accused innocent people WANT their defendant on the stand, in hopes of showing what happened from the best possible perspective, the shooter's.

Third, we all know how many anti-gun media editorials have told the public that ordinary people shouldn't carry guns because "they're not qualified and competent like police and security guards." Knowing the jury is vulnerable to it, the argument that "You were incompetent and a danger to us all, packing that piece on our streets" might very well be one of the cards opposing counsel plays. If he should open that door, being able to document competence with things like shooting match score sheets, personal records (as are kept by serious competitive shooters), etc. gives the defense a chance to not only prove the competence of the defendant, but undercut the credibility of the opposing lawyer who is attacking him.

Respectfully,
Mas
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Old April 10, 2008, 03:44 PM   #12
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I keep a log on my firearms to show number of rounds fired and any maintenance that has been performed and what is coming up. For example, the barrel on one of my AR's is approaching its life expectancy and will be replaced when it reaches that mark.

I also have a space for any training done with a certain gun on a certain day. This is not for court purposes, but rather notes to indicate what TTPs I to need practice. If done with a timer, the time taken for any given drill is also recorded.

Denny
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Old April 10, 2008, 05:22 PM   #13
Scattergun Bob
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Tincup

See what I mean between flamers and thinkers.

You had an idea, I believed it had merit, Mas helped. You and I now possess a NOTHER important tool in the inventory of life.

It stands on its own, other folks pro or con will not change its value or merit. KEEP THINKING TIN CUP WE NEED THINKERS HERE MORE THAN FLAMERS.

Whats really exciting to me is that for once the "flavor of the month gun or gear" did not overpower the thread. At least so far!

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Old April 10, 2008, 05:34 PM   #14
TINCUP AL
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Bob- I agree. I'm glad to see Mas Ayoob weigh in on the topic. Mr. Ayoob, I enjoy reading all of your articles and I value the information that you provide from real world experiences. It is very helpful. Thank you.
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