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Old April 7, 2008, 10:17 AM   #1
Ivory Grips
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I as many do, enjoy reading banter about one caliber vs. another, auto vs. revolver, etc. Yet the topic of how to survive the legal procedure usually following a shooting incident in the ultimate battle field _ in a court of law. Your comments and experience would certainly make for both an informative and interesting read.

What I wanted to ask is why isn't any thought or discussion given to what it actually takes to survive in a court of law, as a consequence of being involved in a shooting incident.
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Old April 7, 2008, 10:56 AM   #2
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This topic has most certainly been covered before.
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Old April 7, 2008, 11:22 AM   #3
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It is covered in Internet discussions, books and classes. The primary class is Mas' LFI-1. Also read his books.

In my other classes from various folks it is covered. Also, for those inclined, there is a professional literature outside of the gun world.

It certainly is discussed.
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Old April 7, 2008, 11:23 AM   #4
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What I wanted to ask is why isn't any thought or discussion given to what it actually takes to survive in a court of law, as a consequence of being involved in a shooting incident.
If the lack of legal information & strategy bothers you, I'd suggest you look into this: www.armedcitizensnetwork.com New company, going to be big.

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Old April 7, 2008, 12:59 PM   #5
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Humorously speaking, I'd like to think being a brother forum member with the great Mas Ayoob would be a great thing to have in your arsenal. Should any of us be involved in a righteous shoot, I pretend that he'd be willing to at least provide some documents that help in our justification...

He does great things for 'us kind of folk' regarding your very question. Like Glenn mentioned, I'd suggest looking into some stuff Mr. Ayoob has written or cases he has worked.
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Old April 7, 2008, 01:21 PM   #6
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Get your state to enact the Castle Doctrine if it hasn't already.
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Old April 7, 2008, 01:26 PM   #7
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Great Follow Up!

I did happen to read Massad Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme." A most informative book about defensive shooting and it's consequences. Meaning no offense to the person who made the last post, but I fail to see the humor in regards to the main theme of this thread. Thanks for all your informative responses.
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Old April 7, 2008, 01:30 PM   #8
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Every now and then I hear reports on the news where someone has killed a badguy legaly and at the end of the report they say "no charges were filed against the shooter"

I believe if you keep it ultra legal and know the laws before hand and not learn them after a shooting, you should be fine, atleast where I live anyways........
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Old April 7, 2008, 01:40 PM   #9
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Years ago, before I ever dreamed of becoming a lawyer, I was a snot-nosed little college-brat in one of the professional fraternities in my local university. We were a very active organization, throwing lots of parties and managing to garner the attention of several of the local faculty members. One such faculty member actually had a criminal-defense attorney buddy of his come out to our fraternity meeting and give a lecture on "the importance of good legal representation" in a college fraternity.

Long story short, the guy explained to us that the biggest problem with criminal defense is that most people do not think of hiring a lawyer as a "precautionary" measure, but rather, as a "last-ditch" measure. In other words, people don't even think of finding a good attorney until they are actually sitting at the police station in handcuffs. And, by that time, it's often too late! He explained that his job would be so much easier if everyone had a pre-established relationship with a local attorney, and carried that attorney's phone number on them at all times.

From my experience, THAT'S the most important thing you can do to cover your bases from the legal perspective of gun ownership. I tell people who purchase guns, "You need to do the following three things: (1) Go introduce yourself to an attorney; (2) Get his/her business card and put it in your pocket; and (3) If anything ever happens, call 911 first, call the attorney second, and then SHUT YOUR MOUTH IMMEDIATELY! When the cops arrive, explain to them that you've contacted your attorney, tell them who he is, and tell them that you won't give a statement without him present. Then, go dead. Say nothing more. Ignore all questions, respond to nothing.

I've heard countless lines from people who say, "The cop told me that if I tell him what happened now, he'll let me go; but if I wait for my attorney, he'll charge me with murder..." In this situation, THE COP IS LYING!!! Remember this one thing: Police are NEVER allowed to give you disfavored treatment in response to your asking for legal representation. NEVER. If a cop indicates otherwise, then he's trying to scam you into talking without your attorney present. Don't let him do it!

Ok, enough rambling...
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Old April 7, 2008, 01:47 PM   #10
Ivory Grips
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Samurai

Thank You Sir!
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Old April 7, 2008, 03:50 PM   #11
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How would you go about choosing the right lawyer? I'm sure you don't just call one of the guys on TV
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Old April 7, 2008, 05:34 PM   #12
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I fail to see the humor in regards to the main theme of this thread

I was trying to mention Mr. Ayoob without implying he should be obligated to help folks on here. I don't find this thread or this subject funny at all. I'm more afraid of the consequences of defending myself than I am of dying.


Quote:
How would you go about choosing the right lawyer? I'm sure you don't just call one of the guys on TV
This is a funny response... And it is also very true. I'll pass on a bit of teaching from my CCW instructor.

Like Samurai said, you do not want to wait til you are at the local police station to being searching for a lawyer. There is a difference between a good and bad lawyer, just like good and bad contractors, good and bad pizza men, etc. If you call a good lawyer, and say 'I'm at the police station in handcuffs, being held on suspicion of murder,' Mr. Good Attorney is likely to steer clear. He probably doesn't want to get involved with someone he doesn't know late at night. Mr. Bad Attorney, however, is more likely to be a bit more desperate for work and be ready at a moments notice.

Mr. Bad Attorney probably has ads in the phone book, with catchy graphics and quotes like 'We get EVERYONE off, GUARANTEED'. While that ad is appealing, cause we'd all like to get off the charge at this point, his version of getting you off might be having you plea to manslaughter and taking 3-5 in the pen. Also consider that your Bad Attorney will already have a reputation in your jurisdiction's courthouse. He strolls in to represent you, and the judge may suspect that you are no different than the gang banger's that Mr. Bad Attorney represents every other day. This type of lawyer does not have a good relationship with the judges in your area.


I'm told, you want an attorney with a record such as the following: former police officer/chief, former DA, military background, etc. You want a like minded fellow, one who is welcomed at the judge's office. Mr. Good Attorney can likely walk into the judge's chambers, shoot the breeze, talk golf, then bring up your case. He'll tell the judge how you're a good ol' boy who was just defending your family. He'll ask the judge, 'How would you or I react in Mr. Defendant's shoes? You'd have shot the BG too with that revolver you keep behind the bench, I'd have done it with the compact I keep under my jacket.'



I don't know, they guy telling me that story was pretty charismatic about it and it probably sounded better coming from him. But it's logical that this sort of thinking might be to our advantage. I'm still trying to research an attorney and have a good reason to talk with him. Right now, all I've got is 'Well gee wiz Mr. Good Attorney, I got's a CCW permit and I'd like to know if I can call ya if I ever needs to shoot someone...' I just don't imagine him getting a warm, fuzzy feeling and welcoming me as a future, potential client. I'd rather call him up and say, "Mr. Good Attorney, you drafted a lease or will for me a ways back, and now I'm in some trouble..."
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Old April 7, 2008, 06:14 PM   #13
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I was trying to mention Mr. Ayoob without implying he should be obligated to help folks on here. I don't find this thread or this subject funny at all. I'm more afraid of the consequences of defending myself than I am of dying.
If that last bit is true, you should never use a gun for SD. Understandably one should be concerned, scared maybe even. But MORE scared than being a homicide victim? Man that's just wierd.
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Old April 7, 2008, 06:44 PM   #14
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I'm hoping he was just emphasizing how difficult these matters can be for individuals (and families).

Anyway, I was just thinking how important it is to have an attorney set up beforehand in cases like this. Very good point.
I was also thinking how some people may have an attorney they've worked with in the past who may not be suited to a case like a shooting.
I, for example, know a woman who is a former DA, and well-liked by everyone in the courthouse. She's easy to talk to, and you can tell that she has a passion for defending good people in bad situations.
However, I'm wondering how well she would handle a criminal shooting case. (lack of a better term)
I always figured I'd use her, and she advertises criminal law, but I think she specializes in estate law mostly, and DUI law (just because it's so common).
Is this something I should just call her about?
I mean, do I just say "If I would ever happen to need a lawyer on a homicide charge, can I count on you?"
Maybe she would recommend someone? Just seems like if i were a lawyer, I may steer clear of all this?
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Old April 7, 2008, 06:55 PM   #15
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The most important thing to do is give the Police your name and address, ask to see your lawyer and ask for bail and access to a telephone. DO NOT SAY ANYTHING ELSE until you have seen a lawyer.

Bewary of the good cop bad cop routine. Remember the Police are not your friend and they want a result.
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Old April 7, 2008, 07:46 PM   #16
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But MORE scared than being a homicide victim? Man that's just wierd.
Quote:
I'm hoping he was just emphasizing how difficult these matters can be for individuals (and families).

Yes, I was emphasizing in this case.

However, one of my coworkers appreciates firearms just as much as I, but refuses to use them for SD for that exact reason I stated. His reasoning is both a fear of the legal consequences and a spiritual fear that he wouldn't be able to live with himself after taking a life.
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Old April 7, 2008, 07:59 PM   #17
Ivory Grips
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Thank You Lawyer Daggit

I like to add, it's my impression that many individuals express interests in handguns and it's value as a tool in self defense. Myself included. Further a good lawyer is everybit as vital as our favorite handgun, and our pet load, if not more so. Again, I'm not trying to discredit anyone in here, and please know that I appreciate all your input. Thanks again folks.
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Old April 7, 2008, 09:22 PM   #18
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Thanks JFREY123 for the good advice. This thread has lots of great points and I will find a good lawer.
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Old April 7, 2008, 09:29 PM   #19
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Mas Ayoob has written volumes on this topic.
A good lawyer is your best friend.
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Old April 7, 2008, 09:31 PM   #20
Captain38
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Pax Said...

"If the lack of legal information & strategy bothers you, I'd suggest you look into this: www.armedcitizensnetwork.com New company, going to be big."

Marty Hayes has a law degree and is a renowned firearms instructor who's paired up with Mas Ayoob, who's no slouch himself either in a courtroom or on the range. Throw in Gila Hayes and they should make a great team.

I DID as pax suggested. I'd already read Mas' books and attended LFI-1 but I now feel better having signed up with Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network. I blow what they want a year on a good meal or a tie I might never wear, so how can I lose?

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Old April 7, 2008, 09:41 PM   #21
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Well, some folks do seem to get awfully passionate when it comes to discussing the caliber of their favorite handgun ...

I sometimes wonder if such folks have invested a similar amount of attention and interest toward the subject of choosing the caliber of their legal representation.
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Old April 8, 2008, 12:16 AM   #22
EastSideRich
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Quote:
appreciates firearms just as much as I, but refuses to use them for SD for that exact reason I stated.
This is a little off topic, but isn't a gun for life or death situations?
How could you refuse to use a gun in defense of your own life or your family?
I'd hate to have my last thought while bleeding to death on a sidewalk be "ya know, maybe shooting someone in self defense wouldn't have been such a bad idea".
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Old April 8, 2008, 01:56 AM   #23
Ivory Grips
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Daryl

The point I was trying to raise was the importance of being aware of the legal ramifications following the shooting of another person either justified or not. I believe we all have the right to defend ourselves. But the decision to use lethal force does have legal consequences. To shoot, or not to shoot? That's a topic for a whole new thread please.
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Old April 8, 2008, 11:55 AM   #24
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Mas Ayoob has written volumes on this topic.
A good lawyer is your best friend.]
Aren't these contradictory statements? Get your legal advise from real lawyers who practice in your jurisdiction, not from a gunrag-writer/seminar-giver.

I get my legal advice from real lawyers, and I'd strongly recommend that others do the same. I can't believe some of the folks on here who live their lives making fear-based decisions. To actually be more afraid of taking action and facing the consequences, than acquiescing to some uncvilized savage is unthinkable to me.

The last think you need on your mind, if your life is threatened, is the legal consequence of your defending yourself. If you're involved in a righteous shoot, the odds are greatly in your favor of not being charged, and, depending on the jurisdiction, not being sued.

I have a problem with taking advice from somebody who's existed in the New England culture. They're just not like the rest of us, when it comes to s.d.!!!
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Old April 8, 2008, 01:09 PM   #25
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Aren't these contradictory statements? Get your legal advise from real lawyers who practice in your jurisdiction, not from a gunrag-writer/seminar-giver.
Ayoob has testified as an expert witness in the aftermath of many self defense incidents in many different states (and not just in New England). Many attorneys primarily defend guilty defendants and try to plea bargain them out -- they don't have experience with defending a self defense incident.

Ayoob never claims to be an attorney. And he won't claim to know the details of the laws in your jurisdiction. He is not a substitute for a competent criminal attorney. But he probably knows a heck of a lot more about self defense law than the lawyer who wrote your will.
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