The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old April 1, 2008, 02:03 PM   #26
Boris Bush
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2007
Posts: 921
One thing I hate about the internet is sometimes people think they can learn how to shoot by watching youtube.

It looks kool and works good on a range or WHEN YOU ARE ON A MISSION IN A WAR WHERE YOUR HANDGUN IS A BACKUP. Even then it will likely be carried in some kind of retention holster and have a lanyard on it.

Try them kool looking mall ninja moves while carrying a bag of goodies you just bought at the mall and fight off someone that just blind sided you.

Gun fights are not like a trip to the range, they aren't even nowhere close to IDPA or IPSC if you do that stuff.

Listen to M1911, he has pretty well summed it up pretty well, and the training isn't a bad idea either.
Boris Bush is offline  
Old April 1, 2008, 02:24 PM   #27
buzz_knox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 1999
Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse
Posts: 4,191
Quote:
It looks kool and works good on a range or WHEN YOU ARE ON A MISSION IN A WAR WHERE YOUR HANDGUN IS A BACKUP.
My understanding is that for those troops who carry a pistol as a secondary weapon, it gets chambered prior to going outside the wire.
buzz_knox is offline  
Old April 1, 2008, 03:06 PM   #28
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Lanyard?

My experience was that we used approved holsters, but of various types. Never saw anybody use a lanyard, not even the Special Boat guys.

Prior to going outside the wire, we chambered long arms and pistols at the loading barrels.

Cheers,

M
MLeake is offline  
Old April 1, 2008, 04:49 PM   #29
P-35HP
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Location: NH
Posts: 14
Great responses. Thank you, ALL.

M1991, VERY IMPRESIVE BACKROUND AND EXPERIANCE. Your recomandation regarding Sig Academy is welcomed, as well as all all other recomadations . I was contemplating atending one of SIG Academy clases for a wile. I will at some point.

The arguments that you guys put forward in favor of condition one are very solid. I apriciate your experiance and the will to share it with me. I am always learning from other.
P-35HP is offline  
Old April 1, 2008, 04:52 PM   #30
rampage841512
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2007
Location: Gardendale, Alabama
Posts: 665
As I've said before on similar threads, you carry how you like and I'll do the same.
__________________
"What is play to the fool and the idiot is deadly serious to the man with the gun."
Walt Rauch,Combat Handguns, May '08
rampage841512 is offline  
Old April 1, 2008, 05:03 PM   #31
P-35HP
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Location: NH
Posts: 14
rampage. You are exactly to the point, but I also like to hear other pepole opinions and learn from them.
Thank you
P-35HP is offline  
Old April 1, 2008, 07:10 PM   #32
Boris Bush
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2007
Posts: 921
buzz knox, MLeake

We only had one guy carry his M9 that was issued to him. It was in one of them fancy Blackhawk holsters and he did use a lanyard C2. There were alot of various makes of pistols on the truck, carried in any manner they saw fit. We mostly had G19s and they all carried them Condition 3. If things got so bad that they needed them they would have been well hidden or covered so speed was not needed.

When we loaded and unloaded we never dismounted to do so. I didn't go to work in a humvee or other light skined truck.

ghost rider out........

Last edited by Boris Bush; April 1, 2008 at 10:21 PM.
Boris Bush is offline  
Old April 1, 2008, 07:26 PM   #33
HankB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2000
Location: Central Texas, outside of Austin
Posts: 1,694
I used to shoot IDPA with a guy who was an IDF veteran - he carried a BHP with a round chambered and the safety on, but he eventually got the SFS system installed and seemed to like it.

We never actually discussed mode of carry in Israel, but he told me the training said that if you're in a fight with a handgun, always keep moving - forward, if possible - and as you pass any downed terrorist, put a bullet through his eye - he was adamant about the eye - to be SURE he won't get up when your back is to him.

Naturally, administering a coup-de-grace like this to a downed bad guy in any except the most unusual circumstances will land you in legal hot water here in TX . . .
__________________
To be kind to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself - Sun Tzu
HankB is offline  
Old April 1, 2008, 09:00 PM   #34
vox rationis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 15, 2007
Posts: 1,855
M1911 and the rest of you fellows that argue against the "Israeli Method" have said just about all that can be said on this topic, and in a most effective way, IMHO.

It seems to me that people start with the preconceived emotional inclination that it is unsafe to carry with chamber loaded, and then look for examples that support their position, the Israeli Method being one of them.

Since the Israeli method is such an egregious self imposed handicap in the realm of efficient gun handling, I am totally mystified what the point of carrying that way in a potential danger zone would be. I suppose that the only way I'd carry that way is if I had my Glock and no holster, and I was forced to Mexican Carry.

that is quite funny
so is that the actual beginnings of the term "mall ninja"?

Last edited by vox rationis; April 1, 2008 at 10:48 PM.
vox rationis is offline  
Old April 2, 2008, 05:50 AM   #35
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
Quote:
so is that the actual beginnings of the term "mall ninja"?
It is indeed the source of the term "mall ninja."
M1911 is offline  
Old April 2, 2008, 07:24 AM   #36
P-35HP
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Location: NH
Posts: 14
HankB
The Israeli vet. described the military doctrine and in general what a police officer or a civilian with military training would do in a typical Israeli SD incident, i.e. stopping or preventing a terrorist act.

Typically, one would advance and "reduce the distance" as fast as possible wile striving to eliminate the threat as fast as possible. The use of cover and tactical reload are used wile keeping the trust forward, toward the target. The goal is to get to the target as fast as possible, to keep his head down and busy by creating a high volume of ACURATE fire and eliminate the threat in the shortest time.

If possible, team tactics and other tactics are used.

It should be carefully and skillfully deployed as the terrorists may have explosives attached. Sometime the usual shooting and stabbing are followed by detonating the explosives.

The military teaches that after passing an enemy position, there should be a sweep back in order to make sure no enemy solider is left behind with the capability to do harm wile one moves forward.

Civilians or police officers HERE have no use of this tactics due to the legal implication and public opinion.

The BHP was very popular and widely used in Israel at all levels. I like it and I carry it. There are many other better guns out there, but this is what I like the most. I hate the hammer bite, though.
I was thinking about the SFS, but I am too old to change my decades old (and dangerous to myself, as many here seems to suggest) habits.

IPSC / IDPA leagues in Israel are following the same rules as here.
P-35HP is offline  
Old April 2, 2008, 10:01 AM   #37
stephen426
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 2,884
P-35HP,

For the record, I don't have anywhere near the credentials as some of these guys, but I have been shooting for a long time and read a lot on shooting and self defense. With that said... here is my view on condition 3 carry.

Is there a law requiring Israelis to carry in condition 3 and only use fmj ammo? Those laws don't exist here. Why not give yourself every advantage you can? Just because this outcome was good does not make condition 3 with fmj ammo the ideal method of carry.

There are many factors that determine the outcome of a gun fight. Maybe the shooter was already watching the terrorist due to the terrorist's behavior. Situational awareness is one of the most important elements for self defense. Since he was already aware, I'm sure his reaction time was much faster than it would have been if he was caught completely off guard. The problem is that drawing and firing from condition 3 will always be slower than drawing and shooting from condition 1. As mentioned, you may not always have both hands free (carrying a kid or maybe your other hand is injured). FMJ rounds have less "stopping power" since less of the energy is deposited into the target. As a hollowpoint opens up and deforms, it slows down more inside the body, depositing more energy into the target. As long as there is sufficient penetration, hollow points will out perform fmj rounds. There is also the possibility that there was a bit of luck involved. There are many incidences where people take multiple hits and are still capable of fighting. It is possible that the shooter hit something vital and that the terrorist just collapsed.

My point (after all of this rambling) is why risk slowing yourself down and why use less effective amo if you are not required to? The main idea in a gunfight is to come out unscathed and to stop the attack as quickly as possible. Do what you likke, but I carry hollowpoints in my guns in condition 1.
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old April 2, 2008, 11:43 AM   #38
P-35HP
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Location: NH
Posts: 14
No laws against the FMJ for civilians. They can choose whatever they want. The police use the FMJ. I do not know about the SF in anti terrorism duty.

Military is FMJ as far as I am aware of.

I think that it was Chuck Taylor that at one point recommended FMJ in .45 at some point.
I carried HP and used FMJ for training only.

I have found (from my trials) that there is a difference in speed between one and three. One is, again for me, about 0.2 sec. (with a Sig) faster when all other factors are similar.
Due to other than speed considerations, I carry the BHP in condition three, and as I said with reliable JHP ammo. One of the considerations is the ability to hit the target all the time every time.
For me, after so many years of practicing condition three and Isoscel stance shooting are instinctive and I score hits better.
To change the hole think, and I have tried it, is uprooting an instinct.
I have to kind of “think a bit", a hesitation, before I draw from condition one and get into Isoscel stance. Getting in a Weaver after the draw is even worth.

I do want to stick with what actually worked well for me, rather than fighting this “instinct” to gain the theoretically advantage of about .2 sec. It is an advantage all right, but at a cost.

I have tried (IPSC for few years and dropped) condition one and Weaver because I wanted to understated what advantages are there for me and
I was curious to see what makes so many people passionate about it. I have found that it is a very good combination that works very well for a lot of people, but not me.

Please understand that I am not saying that condition three is superior or the Isoscel is superior.

I am saying that it worked well for me for many years and I have yet to find a reason and the way to get rid of it.

It is working very well FOR A LOT of people in a country that had seen thousands of terrorist acts, had put the first Air Marshalls on commercial flights who actually defended the planes very successfully against hijackers, had four major wars were losing one has never been an option and a lot of small "mini wars" during the last 60 years.

Dose anyone think that the Sabena incident, Antebe operation, Beirut operation, Alger operation and many other known and unknown operation would have been possible and successful if those people did not have good tactics?
P-35HP is offline  
Old April 2, 2008, 12:43 PM   #39
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
P-35HP: The US military has done a number of spectacularly good operations. But that hasn't stopped them from doing completely stupid things too, like making security guards carry unloaded guns (e.g., Beirut bombing). I'm sure that the same is true for the Israeli Defense Force. Entebbe was a spectacular success; the most recent Lebanon incursion not so much.

The success or failure of such operations has nothing to do with whether condition 1 or condition 3 is better.
M1911 is offline  
Old April 2, 2008, 12:51 PM   #40
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,700
P-35HP,

I understand that you prefer to carry a single action auto-loader in condition 3. I understand your reasons. And I understand that you're free to have that preference and that you're not alone in that preference. The thing I don't understand is why you, and others who choose condition 3 carry, assume that in an emergency, when you may need to deploy your handgun in a hurry, you will necessarily have the full use of both your hands. Because with condition 3 carry, if you don't have full use of both your hands and you need to use your gun quickly, you will pretty much be out of luck.

As to the supposition that condition 3 has worked, first without a lot of detailed information regarding actual incidents, we really don't know that it does -- or at least we don't know exactly when or how it may or may not have worked in a lot of specific situations. We may be able to infer that condition 3 has been used in some situations and that the user has survived; but we don't know exactly what happened in each situation. Nor do we have any detailed information on the situations in which it didn't work. And, with all due respect, I don't believe that you can assume that condition 3 works for you unless you have been in an actual, violent confrontation and prevailed when carrying you sidearm in condition 3.

It also important to reflect that the tactical problems presented in combat or military operations are vastly different from those that will be presented to a private citizen attempting to defend himself from violent street crime.

I have talked with several people who have prevailed in violent encounters, and in at least a couple of those encounters, the defender in fact had to use his pistol one handed. Had those people been carrying in condition 3, they would not have been able to have prevailed. In any event, you can not make an appointment for an emergency, nor can you predict how an emergency will necessarily unfold.

In selecting your mode of firearm carry and in considering the way you train, I think it's important to remember that it is always conceivable that you will need to use your gun one-handed. I always recommend being able to diploy your gun quickly with one hand and training to shoot effectively with one hand -- both your strong hand and your weak hand.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old April 2, 2008, 12:51 PM   #41
MK11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 26, 2001
Posts: 574
No but I don't think carrying a handgun "Israeli style" had anything to do with the success of those missions either. If it works for you, stick with it. As people have already pointed out in this thread, the advantage of carrying with a loaded chamber isn't to gain a fraction of as second in competition but so you can operate your handgun with one hand while an attacker is right in your face, as opposed to having to use two hands for your "handsgun."

Any defense relies on awareness but building in the handicap of an unloaded gun requires you to be even further down the readiness loop. Anyone who says they're in "Condition Yellow" all the time is a liar.
MK11 is offline  
Old April 2, 2008, 12:52 PM   #42
P-35HP
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Location: NH
Posts: 14
m1911

You are missing the point. According to published material, handguns have been used in those incidents.
The point is not who is making more mistakes or what is better. This is not a contest (you know what kind), either.

BOTH ARE WORKINK, AND ARE WORKING WELL. BOTH!!

I have not been presented with any substantial facts proving otherwise.
P-35HP is offline  
Old April 2, 2008, 12:56 PM   #43
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
It looks like the arguments for "the necessity" of caring all the time in condition one vs. condition three, the "necessity" to have “one in the pipe”, the 21 feet theory, or the "best" caliber and type of bullet are just theoretical opinions. The reality, in many cases, proves them wrong.
It's not just the Israeli technique, there are all sorts of other bits of reality that tend to indicate that a lot of the theories have no basis in fact. Of course, lots of so-called theories are nothing more than dogmatic cliches that gun owners have tossed around for years without caring about the accuracy of the statement.

Quote:
Since the Israeli method is such an egregious self imposed handicap in the realm of efficient gun handling, I am totally mystified what the point of carrying that way in a potential danger zone would be.
You talk about a "preconceived emotional inclination " and then make a statement like that, which is obviously based on a preconceived emotional inclination? How strange. As mentioned before, history has shown, over and over, despite all the claims to the contrary, that chamber empty carry is not much, if any, handicap, which is why so many people and organizations have used it in so many really hot spots for so long.

Quote:
Most of what I read indicates that the so-called "Israeli Carry" (Condition III) was in effect when they had a plethora of different weapons, and that was some time ago. I have read that since they have updated\/standardised their military, C-III is no longer used....
Don't know. One of the guys I work with occassionally was in Israel around Christmas and he said that Chamber Empty was still the mandatory carry mode, at least for non-LE. Maybe one of the members on the ground in that area can clarify??

Last edited by David Armstrong; April 2, 2008 at 02:19 PM.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old April 2, 2008, 01:16 PM   #44
P-35HP
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Location: NH
Posts: 14
Fiddletown
Having to deploy the weapon quickly one handed is a question I do not have a good answer for. My answer is slow and cumbersome. Do not like it at all.

I am looking for that answer and this is one of the reasons I bought this subject up. Condition one provides an excellent answer, but for me condition one is not working as well as I would like. You see, I have to hit the target at least as frequent as when I am using condition three.

M1911’s suggestion to attend the Sig Academy or may be one of Mr. Ayoob (which I respect and have read his articles for many years) classes and start from the lowest level may be a good advice. I just need to find the resources to do it.

Agree on the need to practice one handed shooting. I am doing it a lot, but well.. after loading the gun.
P-35HP is offline  
Old April 2, 2008, 01:24 PM   #45
ATW525
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2005
Location: Concord, NH
Posts: 2,683
Quote:
I have found (from my trials) that there is a difference in speed between one and three. One is, again for me, about 0.2 sec. (with a Sig) faster when all other factors are similar.
Due to other than speed considerations, I carry the BHP in condition three, and as I said with reliable JHP ammo. One of the considerations is the ability to hit the target all the time every time.
For me, after so many years of practicing condition three and Isoscel stance shooting are instinctive and I score hits better.
To change the hole think, and I have tried it, is uprooting an instinct.
I have to kind of “think a bit", a hesitation, before I draw from condition one and get into Isoscel stance. Getting in a Weaver after the draw is even worth.

I do want to stick with what actually worked well for me, rather than fighting this “instinct” to gain the theoretically advantage of about .2 sec. It is an advantage all right, but at a cost.

I have tried (IPSC for few years and dropped) condition one and Weaver because I wanted to understated what advantages are there for me and
I was curious to see what makes so many people passionate about it. I have found that it is a very good combination that works very well for a lot of people, but not me.

Please understand that I am not saying that condition three is superior or the Isoscel is superior.

I am saying that it worked well for me for many years and I have yet to find a reason and the way to get rid of it.
Whatever works for you. I second the earlier recommendation to attend training at SigArms Academy, though. They are a top notch facility, you can use your BHP and they'll teach you how to draw into a modern isosceles stance from condition one carry.

Quote:
It is working very well FOR A LOT of people in a country that had seen thousands of terrorist acts, had put the first Air Marshalls on commercial flights who actually defended the planes very successfully against hijackers, had four major wars were losing one has never been an option and a lot of small "mini wars" during the last 60 years.

Dose anyone think that the Sabena incident, Antebe operation, Beirut operation, Alger operation and many other known and unknown operation would have been possible and successful if those people did not have good tactics?
Not sure what the obsession with Israel is about, but I don't think I'd base how I carry my defensive handgun on how many times a country won wars or completed successful operations. One has zero relevance to the other. However if you ever get the chance to talk to a current or former operator in a top tier IDF unit, you just might be surprised on what condition they choose to carry their pistols.
ATW525 is online now  
Old April 2, 2008, 01:52 PM   #46
P-35HP
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Location: NH
Posts: 14
David Armstrong
Condition three is mandatory for LE in Israel. Civilians have to qualify with the handgun they own and are expected to use Condition three.

The "many types of old handguns used" theory, AS I UNDERSTD IT is not supported by the reality, in my opinion.

Civilians are using modern handguns both S/A and D/A, mostly Glock, Jericho, BHP (the "FN" as they call it) CZ, SIG, Beretta and clones.

The LE agencies and the Military have moved away from the BHP towards Glock, Sig and Jericho and some Berretta. As far as I know, all are required to adder to condition three.

They are not changing to condition one because they have not enough reasons to. The hit/speed results are more or less similar with condition one, police officers and civilians do not expect to and are not jumped in the streets by the local gang members trying to score points with their peers, so the extreme surprise effect and having to draw one handed are not a major issue for them. It is not that one will walk on the street and suddenly a terrorist will jump on him out of the blue. The type of events they encounter allows much more than the “required” 1.5 -2.0 sec. to draw.

At last event at Ofra, it is not clear what happened. What is clear is the end result.

The military does not consider the handgun not even for back-up in the vast majority of its operations.

SF are using it and when used (the AR or the SMG is always preferred); the gun will be on hand, loaded.

IPSC is condition one.
P-35HP is offline  
Old April 2, 2008, 02:11 PM   #47
Musketeer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2005
Posts: 3,732
Search "Israeli carry" and read.

This has all happenned before. It will all happen again.
__________________
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Thomas Jefferson

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin
Musketeer is offline  
Old April 2, 2008, 02:22 PM   #48
P-35HP
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Location: NH
Posts: 14
Just curious to know and I mean no offense, but did you talk with one of them?

The "obsession with Israel” is due to:
This system has been developed in Israel and is used there at all levels.
This system is working well for them and me.
In order to make the point that this is a system that works and that the Israelis have experience in tactics, I had to bring examples.

Unfortunately, the discussion is drifting away from what my initial intension was.

You are right. There is no necessary a correlation between how many wars a country won and how you should carry your personal weapon.
However, there may be a correlation between the strategy, tactics, weapons systems, etc., such a country may develop to win the wars and the tactics and weapons you may want to adopt for your benefit.
In short, there is nothing wrong to benefit from somebody else experience.
.
P-35HP is offline  
Old April 2, 2008, 02:23 PM   #49
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
Condition three is mandatory for LE in Israel. Civilians have to qualify with the handgun they own and are expected to use Condition three.
That was pretty much my understanding (carry condition), although the "qualify with the handgun they own" is new to me.
Quote:
However if you ever get the chance to talk to a current or former operator in a top tier IDF unit, you just might be surprised on what condition they choose to carry their pistols.
Did that, and he said he always carried chamber empty, as did his colleagues, and he still carries that way here in the U.S.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old April 2, 2008, 02:29 PM   #50
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
P35: The reality is neither you nor I know how they were carrying in those incidents. US Army policy is that within the wire all guns are unloaded. When a buddy of mine was deployed, he always had a loaded gun on him -- within the wire he just kept his pistol concealed.

Furthermore, in many terrorist incidents, the person who stopped the terrorist was not the person who was attacked. That gave the responder precious seconds to prepare.

Also, once units are outside the wire, the rules from higher ups are often disregarded.

Here in the US, we are far more likely to get attacked by a criminal than to get caught up in a terrorist attack. The attack from a criminal will be against you, at close range, with very little warning. So the time pressure may be far greater than a bystander responding to a terrorist attack against someone else.

Carry how you want to carry. If you want to ensure that it takes longer to get off your first shot, that's your choice. Why you want to do that is completely beyond me, but it is your choice. If you are that worried about an ND, go get some training.

However, don't expect to convince any of us here that condition 3 is a superior way to carry. It isn't.

Honestly, in the amount of time you've spent on this thread, and instructor could have already trained you to carry condition 1. The IDF spends a lot of time training people to draw and chamber a round. Which is completely pointless, when they could simply teach them to carry condition 1 or condition 2 in the same amount of time.

Look, NDs occur because people think a gun isn't loaded. If you carry condition 3 and something bad happens, then you chamber a round, deal with it, and now you have a loaded gun that you are not used to dealing with.

Carrying condition 1 is simpler -- the gun is always loaded, so treat it as such.
M1911 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14221 seconds with 7 queries