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Old March 28, 2008, 04:45 PM   #26
IdahoG36
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Quote:
I understand in Iraq the Arab terrorist are plum scared of the 12 guage.
For good reason. 00Buck is devastating at close ranges, and in my opinion makes a better weapon for close quarter combat than a short rifle caliber carbine or a handgun.
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Old March 28, 2008, 05:43 PM   #27
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In the 1990s we had 870s on my base. Some of them were getting pretty ragged so in about 1998 I ordered 4 replacement shotguns from the USAF. I received 4 Winchester Model 12 that looked like new. But within a week the SkyCops had them dinged up already.
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Old March 28, 2008, 07:38 PM   #28
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For Saigon and suburbs in '69-'70, I generally carried a Win. '97, an M-16, and a Colt Detective Special .38 in the Jeep. Having grown up with '97s in the family, it was comfortable. Today it is a safe full of 870s and grandpa's '97. Very persuasive firearms between handgun and rifle ranges.
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Old March 28, 2008, 08:31 PM   #29
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Speaking on topic to anyone with knowledge/experience, were flechette rounds used heavily with combat issued SGs?
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Old March 28, 2008, 08:33 PM   #30
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Speaking on topic to anyone with knowledge/experience, were flechette rounds used heavily with combat issued SGs?
I've been on 5 depoyments with the 82nd over the past 12 years and all we used in our shotguns was 00 buck.
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Old April 4, 2008, 04:04 PM   #31
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2 3/4" 00 Buck is the primary SG round in the AF as well. But when we have to do detainee ops we use several different types of less than lethal rounds. I fired the M870 for the first time on 1 April after 10 1/2 years of service. The only reason is I'm part of the team that responds to air craft crashes adn there are alot of bear up here in AK.
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Old April 4, 2008, 11:14 PM   #32
Scattergun Bob
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flechette in combat

I'm not sure about heavy use, But in the late 60s Some of the Brown Water Navy units used them in their m-37 scatterguns, I found a m-12 with a MMC deverter and stuck with #4 buck.

The flechettes sure seemed to extend the range of the guns, they also seemed to penetrate the wood hulls of sampans and junks well.

Good Luck, Be Safe
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Last edited by Scattergun Bob; April 4, 2008 at 11:17 PM. Reason: add content
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Old April 5, 2008, 09:32 AM   #33
goColt
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I thought I had read that some of the door breaching rounds were something other than simple 00 buck. Can't remember exactly what they were supposed to be though. Fl├ęchettes maybe?
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Old April 5, 2008, 10:20 AM   #34
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flechettes are like finish nails with fins

go Colt,

door breaching is done with compressed powder projectiles that disengrate upon impact, usually in slug form. The idea is that it will destroy the door hardware and nothing else, IT does not always work that way and door breaches are considered lethal rounds.

Flechettes might breach a door? but I don't thing so, however being mild or hardened steel they would also rebound or reflect into other targets, not really a good idea.

Flechette are basically force projection for scatterguns.

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Old April 5, 2008, 02:05 PM   #35
Boris Bush
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goColt

We used regular old Winchester OO Buck 9 pellet to breach doors. We breached hundreds of doors Exterior and interior with that load. We never had a problem and it worked double duty if it had to be applied as an offensive weapon once in.....
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Old April 5, 2008, 05:46 PM   #36
Scattergun Bob
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Good Luck with that

Boris,

OK, good luck with that, that 00 hurts bad when it flattens and bounces back off a hardened strike plate. My state was not OK with 00 used in this maner.

Good Luck, Be safe
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Old April 5, 2008, 06:12 PM   #37
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Scattergun Bob


I was shocked when I found out we used good ole OO buck also. I have seen so many doors breached with it that I now believe that it would be an oddity if such a wound would happen. My battalion had not even a scratch as a result of the use of OO buck.

With everything else going on around me I learned to not worry about it. The extreme remote chance I could be injured in that manner was far less likely than what the people inside could have done to me..........
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Old April 5, 2008, 08:46 PM   #38
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Good Luck to you sir

Thanks for the update, as you travel in harms way please remember there are those of us whom wish you well. I spent time neare the bridges at Basara many many years ago, Sand truly sucks.

Good Luck, Be Safe as you can, Bob
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Old April 5, 2008, 11:58 PM   #39
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Scattergun Bob

I just noticed you are in WA! I just happen to be in WA also, you could probably guess where I am

Maybe a get together someday.............
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Old April 6, 2008, 12:40 PM   #40
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It would be my pleasure Sir,

AS LONG AS I GET TO BUY LUNCH.

Good Luck, Be as Safe as you can
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Old April 7, 2008, 02:33 AM   #41
BreacherUp!
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For breaching purposes, you only need attack the weakest part of the locking mechanism. Which typically is the cylinder and cup plate. 00 buck will do fine. You just don't see it CONUS b/c of the possible injuries to innocents behind the door, hence breaching rounds. But, a breaching round will kill you just as good.
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Old April 7, 2008, 03:43 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Duck
Some semi-auto shotguns were used also, by foreign countrys.
And by this country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony pasley
A few years ago they had one on the market I forget who made it but it was an ar on top and 12 ga. semi-auto on bottom.
It was the Crossfire. Actually a pump .223 over a pump 12ga. scattergun. Possibly the only weapon that could malfunction with two calibers at once. Plus it was heavy and insanely awkward, and the designers couldn't pronounce "ergonomics" if they tried. Save your money.
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Old April 8, 2008, 10:28 AM   #43
Scattergun Bob
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Brecher, tell me more

I know about locksets and strikes, have not heard the term cup plate please tell me more!

Thanks for the reminder about CONUS and liability, and then the rest of the real world. I do not remember breaching in the republic of, must of happened, just don't recall.

Picked up a nasty little war wound in the leg some 25 or so years ago from bounce back, they guessed, a metal stud in a commercial building flatted and returned a OO right back at me, a nice gash a little blood fountaining. HENCE, the warning I posted above. It is considered "bad form" in my gaggle of friends and a fellow rejects to shoot yourself regardless of the "reasons". I took some hits in the local paper, Want adds: need to sew up duty pants QUICKLY, call stupid at ######.

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Old April 8, 2008, 05:28 PM   #44
BreacherUp!
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Scattergun,
The cup is the area that accepcts that locking cylinder, the cup plate is the metal around the cup. A typical cylinder will only insert about an inch or less into the cup. That is all that is holding the door. Attacking this will open the door with ease.
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Old April 8, 2008, 06:37 PM   #45
Scattergun Bob
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Brecher

I understand, we are talking about the same parts, using different names. In the Door industry the thing that screws on the door jam to accept the cylinder lock end is referred to as the strike plate. the portion of the cylinder that enters the hole bored into the door jamb is called the strike. Same stuff just different nomenclature.

In that case, Baldwin hardware makes #3 commercial armored strike plates Strikes jamb plates and door panels as well as mortised lock sets. These are for use secure areas. Our weapon storage, Ammo storage and exterior range doors were armored in such a way. Most bank doors are also, to conform to commercial code. They WOUD BE resistant to shotgun breaching.

So I repeat "good luck with that, that 00 hurts bad when it flattens and bounces back off a hardened strike plate."

For that matter, our standard Royal powdered compressed metal breacher would vaporize without getting the job done. Hardened jambs and armor very tough.

If you like you can check it out with San Jose police, they have had a couple of failures, thankfully no blood.

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Old April 8, 2008, 09:19 PM   #46
Scattergun Bob
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Breacher

your talking about the deadbolt! could not see it with your nomenclature. OK so you attack the deadbolt at the cyl asembly, you now have to attack the door handle with is also locked. It is still a big problem if it is hardened, or door plated.
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Old April 10, 2008, 05:59 PM   #47
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From what one of my Sgts. told me (and 0351 assaultman) he carried a benelli. Every vehicle was equiped with a 12 guage be it a benelli or 590.

-Max.
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Old April 10, 2008, 06:10 PM   #48
Boris Bush
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Scattergun Bob


When we run into a breach that a 12 gauge will not work on, we have other methods in our bag of goodies

Getting inside is never much of an issue for us and the shotty is needed on about 1/3 of breaches.
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Old April 10, 2008, 06:44 PM   #49
Scattergun Bob
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Boris

You bet, I think you guy's use great restraint, and quit frankly I do not care about what happens the folks behind the door in that part of the world you operate in.


I was reading arrogance from another member, not you and returning same. """just being my normal butt head""""""""


SITREP between me and you stays the same.

any question at all, press the trigger.
Do what you have to do, to come home
If you get out here in the sticks, lunch is on me.

"as you travel in harms way please remember there are those of us whom wish you well." Good Luck & Be Safe
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Last edited by Scattergun Bob; April 10, 2008 at 10:51 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old April 10, 2008, 10:40 PM   #50
Doc TH
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military shotguns

During the communist insurrection in Malaya in the early 1950s, British troops patrolling in the jungles came to favor the use of shotguns by the point man. They concluded in that environment the shotgun was superior to the Sten, M-1 carbine, and the Australian Owen SMG.
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