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Old March 31, 2008, 09:26 PM   #51
Doggieman
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Just doesnt mave a big wad:P
what's mave a big wad
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Old April 2, 2008, 03:15 AM   #52
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what's mave a big wad
It's a typo. I'm sure he meant to say "have a big..."

The Augila mini-shells don't always feed reliably in some pump shotguns and semi-autos. For single shot and doubles they're just fine of course. Make sure they'll feed reliably before you need to use them. I found they didn't work well if the gun was tipped over at an angle.
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Old April 3, 2008, 11:23 PM   #53
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I just had to say ; not much a slug can't handle within a 100 yards except stout armor! Slugs are so ferocious that I use Remington Managed recoil ones for HD because I can shoot them so fast and accurately and 1 butter soft Oz. at trans sonic velocities is gonna do the job. I use Brennekes for 4 legged things.
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Old April 4, 2008, 09:22 AM   #54
IdahoG36
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Well, it's tactical use is simply this- one to the chest will take the fight right out of somebody. End of discussion.
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Old April 4, 2008, 11:19 AM   #55
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I gotta agree with Tuckahoe: if LAPD had slugs available on 02/28/97, Larry Phillips, Jr. and Emil Matasareanu might have done less damage, even if they weren't stopped completely.
Kind of moot now, with patrol rifles and all, but 1¼ oz. of lead turning into something with 2800+ (2¾" shell) to 3100+ (3" shell) foot-pounds of energy is pretty impressive.
As Buford T. Justice once said, "That's an attention-gettah."
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Old April 4, 2008, 09:08 PM   #56
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Slugs, or 00 buck would end a lot of car chases. An officer ahead of the chase, with some cover, as with spike-strips, could easily take out the radiator, and other under-hood parts. Unlike spike-strips & tires, once the radiator's out and the car overheats, it's gonna STOP!

Stay safe.
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Old April 5, 2008, 02:54 PM   #57
BillCA
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Actually, the spike strips are safer and more effective than punching holes in the radiator. You can continue to drive a car several miles after the coolant has jumped ship.

Not that a 12 gauge slug won't cause all sorts of havoc under the hood though. Batteries don't react well to bullets either and the resulting short circuit can play hob with onboard computers.

On a side note, one may ask why not use the slug on the windshield to get the driver. Windshields don't pose too much of an obstacle and you're likely to reach the driver. But then, you just created a runaway 2-ton blunt instrument that can injure innocents. It's safer to try to stop the vehicle then deal with the occupant.
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Old April 5, 2008, 03:30 PM   #58
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BillCA

Some here don't like to hear about the actual use of force so I will just cut to the chase.

I tried the shoot the car method once. The last word in the sentence before this one is the key word. One time. I used the taught method every other
time, you can guess what that might be.

hope I didn't offend anyone................
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Old April 12, 2008, 10:23 AM   #59
Jake M.
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I understand that the Shotgun slug has tactical value. It knocks people down with one shot. I is cost effective for sure. But the weapon in general has its draw backs. Just working the pump action under stress can be difficult.

One of the guys on my department was involved in a shooting. He shot the suspect two times with a slug. However he short stroked it after the second shot and the gun malfunctioned. He thought it was broken, so the threw it on the ground. You may think that this is a simple training issue, but I can tell you that this officer was high-speed low-drag.
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Old April 12, 2008, 11:15 AM   #60
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Jake M.

So very true. I myself have short stroked a pump, more than once. What alot of people here will never realize (thank god) is what they will exactly do in a fire fight. I watched a brother run out into the middle of the road, just stand there and let loose a couple of mags. The volume of fire unleased in our direction was almost overwhelming and he never got touched! He later said "I do not know why I did that!!!" We can laugh about it now, but someone answered my prayers before that mission as well as the prayers of others...

The only real advice I could give someone is that when the elephant charges, it will be exactly how and when they never trained for it to happen and the fundamentals and basics is what will save thier lives.......
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Old April 12, 2008, 01:54 PM   #61
Ruthless4christ
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anti big

a slug can really equal the odds. it would be my number one choice for shooting downa door, or firing at a car. one of my fav guns is a handmade single shot pistol that fires a 4.10 shotgun slug. it may be small but i promise you it would put a big whole in just about anything that gets hit.
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Old April 14, 2008, 09:48 AM   #62
David Armstrong
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You may think that this is a simple training issue, but I can tell you that this officer was high-speed low-drag.
FWIW, high-speed low-drag does not mean one is good with all sorts of weapons. My experience is that very few people take the time and effort to properly learn to use the shotgun as a fighting tool, and that very few isntructors know how to train others with the shotgun.
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Old April 14, 2008, 11:14 AM   #63
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Use of a slug

In Florida, Security can get a "Waiver" to have a 12 gauge, not a Rifle, myself I would sooner have my AUG, with a 30 round magazine in it.

Having said what I would like, back to what we have, an ex (not new) Police trade in, Mossberg 500. Smooth as glass, hi vis fiber optic front sight, this replaced the bead. Cheek it, press, 30 yd hits on soft drink bottle.

I use this to walk employees from their place of business to their POVs at closing time, in the dark, but very well lit parking lot on a main road.

Reduced velocity slugs are in the tube, 5 of them. Since the Mossberg and I have been taking this walk, no one loiters, they used too. Level 11 vest, and a Glock 19 as well.
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Old April 14, 2008, 11:43 PM   #64
Jake M.
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Mr. Armstrong. I think that you are right. It is a good gun. The only point I was trying to make is that it is not a simplest weapon to use. I know there are pros to using the weapon but I will bring up some cons. When you are using slugs you are basically using a heavy recoil, short range, manually operated, low round capacity rifle. I just think that there are better weapon systems out there. All though I would take one into combat if it was the only long gun I had around.
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Old April 16, 2008, 03:58 PM   #65
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Slugger

Well it has the knock down power for about anyone or anything you might run across. It's also great for taking out a deadbolt in a heavy door. Even at close range the buckshot stays in a pretty tight pattern, it wont disperse right away. Personally for home defense I would pick a nice revolver. I have a snub nose 357. Good house gun for close range, knockdown power, and only one hand to operate.
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Old April 16, 2008, 05:49 PM   #66
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knockdown power
No such animal.....
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Old April 16, 2008, 10:12 PM   #67
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In 1988 during a shoot out with a subject one of our guys was armed with a 12 ga shooting 1 oz foster slugs. He hit the guy at about 30 ft from the side in the left upper arm nearly removing the arm. The slug then entered the chest taking out a rib. It then continued thru both lungs and clipping the top of the heart and removing the aorta, then taking out a rib as it exited the chest cavity. It then took out most of the bicept on the right upper arm. The slug was never recovered. DRT. When we opened the chest cavity it looked like everything above the diaphram had been run thru a blender.
Slugs work and work well.
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Old April 17, 2008, 01:10 PM   #68
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You forgot the most important thing: A 12-ga. slug works the way no ordinary can opener does! It's perfect for ricing potatoes, peeling watermelons, juicing oranges, heck... just about any common culinary task!
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Old April 18, 2008, 09:58 AM   #69
David Armstrong
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Mr. Armstrong. I think that you are right. It is a good gun. The only point I was trying to make is that it is not a simplest weapon to use.
No disagreement from me. That is the biggest problem, I feel, with the shotgun---too many people think it IS easy to use, while it is probably one of the hardest to use well. It pays you back by being a great weapon, but you have to learn how to work it right to get that success.
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Old April 20, 2008, 10:16 PM   #70
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Tactical use of the shotgun!

Training is the key to any tactical senario. Most people and law enforcement professionals hate to shoot heavy shotguns. So they do not train with the weapon regularly. A proper shotgun slug, used by a trained person, will end any CQB situation. A rifle bullet will pass through the target at extremely close range and most times not cause the desired effect. The shotgun slug, moving slower and with greater mass, is perfect.
It's no different than hunting any dangerous game. An aimed shot from a trained person, with the proper equipment, will usually end the threat. A charging brown bear or a crazy bad guy. Only the untrained person, thinks a shotgun slug is for Hollywood movies.
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Old April 20, 2008, 11:44 PM   #71
kennybs plbg
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Training is not required to shoot a slug proficiently, just practice.
I'd put my money on a deer hunter's shot placement over a LEO with a few weeks training anyday.

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Old April 21, 2008, 06:34 AM   #72
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Mr. Armstrong. I think that you are right. It is a good gun. The only point I was trying to make is that it is not a simplest weapon to use.
I never thought of a pump shotgun as being difficult to use. The whole process is quite simple. It can be screwed up, but that isn't a function of the complexity of the mechanism. It is a function of the shooter not completing a very simple task.

With that said, the use of slugs has nothing to do with the complexity of the platform.
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Old April 21, 2008, 12:35 PM   #73
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The shotgun is not difficult to use. It is difficult to use it well enough to get the most out of it. Few people pattern the guns, learn to use different loads, how to utilize the zone effects, etc.
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Old April 21, 2008, 12:59 PM   #74
Glenn E. Meyer
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What's there to know:

1. You just have to rack it to scare away the BG
2. You can't miss
3. It will knock down the BG if you do shoot like the hammer of Thor (preferred analogy for gun lists).

Oh, wait - never mind!

I have had this told me by very smart gun folks.

BTW, for something else I was working on, I read a description of a police officer short stroking his pump under extreme stress. If an instrument has the possiblility of needing a physical manipulation that is subject to such stress effects - one might argue that it is difficult to use given standard human factors analyses.
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Old April 21, 2008, 03:36 PM   #75
David Armstrong
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BTW, for something else I was working on, I read a description of a police officer short stroking his pump under extreme stress. If an instrument has the possiblility of needing a physical manipulation that is subject to such stress effects - one might argue that it is difficult to use given standard human factors analyses.
Short-stroking seems to be fairly common, Glenn. Every course I've attended or given it has reared its ugly head. That's one of the reasons I preferred my Beretta 1201 for serious social shotgunning.
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