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Old March 17, 2008, 09:41 PM   #26
jhenry
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Well, they shoot big holes in stuff. I guess in some tactical sense, if you have some special tactical need to tactically shoot a big hole in something, then tactically speaking a 12 gauge slug could be called upon to deliver the goods, tactically that is.
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Old March 17, 2008, 10:29 PM   #27
hogdogs
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Wake yer asses up... in a home room stituation the spread of a shot shell is going to begin at 10 yards,,, under 10 yards it is just a big entry wound. Whqat the lead does inside the body means little after this. Yes the BG is severly wounded but mortally incapacitated is severly different! the wound CHANNEL of a 20 or 12 gauge slug is the kicker. Hydra dynamic destruction is not even comparable to a bullet wound... we are talking about a belly (sub diapraghm) thru and thru that impacts severe damage on lungs, heart, liver and kidneys... The intention is to stop a threat and a slug will do that right now...
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Old March 17, 2008, 10:43 PM   #28
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+1 BillCA

to another poster...if you think "precision shooting" can be done with slugs you need more range time

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Old March 18, 2008, 01:00 AM   #29
grumpycoconut
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Oh I do love the slug. They are wonderful for shooting bad guys in cars. I've shot a few cars (intact ones, not the collanders found on back country roads) and slugs that went in seldom came out. Slugs also cope with windshields much better in my experience than any handgun, mid power rifle (5.56 etc) or even the sniper's oh so bitchin 308 match ammo. I've never seen a standard slug penetrate even Level II armor but the back face deformation was severe enough to make severe blunt trauma effects very likely.

Now as far as precision is concerned, I consider precision a very relative term. Sub MOA at 100 yds over open sights, not likely, but 10 out of 10 on a human sillhouette at 100 yds, you bet. That's precise enough for me considering the tool.

I'm pretty good with a gauge and on the range at my best I can clip just the hostage taker target at up to 20 ft. But that's only 1 or 2 pellets on target and 7 or 8 more that I'm still responsible for that missed the target completely.

I'll not give up my 5.56 social occassions carbine without much fuss but if the zombies come and I have to choose only one weapon, I guess I'll just have to suck up the recoil and go with the slug launching gauge.
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Old March 18, 2008, 01:14 PM   #30
markj
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A shotgun slug is great for entertainment purposes
Yes I loved seeing them deer die then we ate em.

Quote:
...if you think "precision shooting" can be done with slugs you need more range time
My winchester 1300 wuth a rifled barrel and the proper sabots is a bulls eye hitter at 100 yards. We use them for hunting deer, same as a 30-30 as far as accuracy. Want to come out to me range and see for yourself?
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Old March 20, 2008, 10:58 AM   #31
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If we could pick our gunfights we would always have the perfect weapon in hand for each situation. The shotgun is an effective close range weapon no argument there. It is when the distance opens up beyond 30 yds that the slug takes a great advantage over buckshot.
Had the LAPD officers been issued slugs the North Hollywood bank robbery would have ended much faster. Body armor aside these vermin of society could not stand up to the punch of a one oz slug.
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Old March 21, 2008, 03:25 AM   #32
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too many movies ?

Apparently you"ve never lined up cinder blocks for execution.

And as far as accurate, I"ve watched my grandfather jump shoot running deer in in the head with 2 3/4" slugs no/scope 16 gauge. If you shoot enough its just like a long bow, distance, leading, I think he would of rather had his old pump than an A.R.
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Old March 21, 2008, 04:16 AM   #33
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I use a cruiser grip so I can't use slugs

(I ain't shooting a slug from stomach level)
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Old March 21, 2008, 03:06 PM   #34
Avenger29
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I use a cruiser grip so I can't use slugs

(I ain't shooting a slug from stomach level)
And that's why I use a full stock. A shotgun still has to be aimed. PGs perform poorly, unless you really know what you are doing...
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Old March 21, 2008, 04:44 PM   #35
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pistol grip

Some kid came into my local range with a pistol grip 12ga, showing off for his girlfriend. Against advice of other shooters, he tried to take an aimed shot, and proceeded to smack himself in the mouth with his shotgun.

Between that incident, and the yahoo who shot a load of birdshot and had a bunch of ricochets off the backstop, the range owner now has a "No shotguns" policy.

Of course, if he knows you, that can be waived. But the new general rule is still no shotties.
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Old March 21, 2008, 09:14 PM   #36
ceetee
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Quote:
Quote:
A shotgun slug is great for entertainment purposes

Yes I loved seeing them deer die then we ate em.
And here I was... just wondering how in the heck you would "entertain" yourself with 12 ga slugs...
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Old March 22, 2008, 12:19 AM   #37
Doggieman
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well...

I understand why lots of people don't like cruiser grips, because a lot of lame-os use them. But don't blame the grip, blame the lame-o.

Fact is I've been firing shotguns for 20 years and can break trap all day with a standard stock. I have the strength and technique to control a cruiser grip, which I shoot from just below sternum level, right hand close to the body.

You're right, it's not as accurate as a shoulder stock, and when I shoot slugs I put the shoulder stock on. However, for my purposes it's easier to conceal in my home and maneuver with a shortie than a full-stock shotgun.

Even a skinny girl with bad technique can handle a cruiser grip:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_YNm4_4nHHQ
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Old March 22, 2008, 02:52 AM   #38
Nnobby45
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Besides large game hunting, what would be the tactical use?
My opinion is the slug has to much penetration. How could it be used by the police or a homeowner? It would penetrate right through the target and bound to hit someone or something else.
LE who are familiar with Foster type (soft lead) LE Tactical HP slugs (such as Fed. Tac), have told me that they don't tend to over penetrate human targets.

A Federal LE Officer, and later Fed. firearms instructor told me he prefered slugs because he'd rather be responsible for one projectile as opposed nine 9 00 buck--for safety and liability reasons, as well as precision. His team within the agency felt the same way--they used slugs.

Now, Brennekes (hard lead) or Sabots are a different matter where penetration is concerned and might be the best choice where a large critter that could eat you for breakfast is concerned.

Fosters from Blackbear on down. Brennekes or Sabots for Blackbear on up, including large Porcine type critters.

I don't think the deadly effectiveness of a .72 cal. slug that expands to well over an inch is in dispute. Or even the effectiveness of a hard slug that doesn't expand at all, for that matter.

Last edited by Nnobby45; March 22, 2008 at 09:14 PM.
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Old March 26, 2008, 11:24 PM   #39
workinwifdakids
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First of all, there is no personal body armor that will defeat a 12 gauge slug.

Imagine something punching through your stomach and breaking your spinal column, without ripping your shirt, and you'll get the idea. As in, massive internal trauma resulting in death.

BUT - a shotgun slug will defeat bullet resistant glass, which could be a plus.

BTW - what the hell does 'tactical' even mean any more? Nothing.
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Old March 26, 2008, 11:26 PM   #40
Doggieman
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First of all, there is no personal body armor that will defeat a 12 gauge slug.

Imagine something punching through your stomach and breaking your spinal column, without ripping your shirt, and you'll get the idea. As in, massive internal trauma resulting in death.


Never heard this one before
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Old March 26, 2008, 11:47 PM   #41
workinwifdakids
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You've never heard of someone being hit while wearing armor, and sufferering internal injuries without the bullet penetrating their skin? The 'spinal cord' this was hyperbolic analogy, but the fact still stands.
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Old March 26, 2008, 11:49 PM   #42
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hyperbole ^2
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Old March 27, 2008, 12:41 AM   #43
R1145
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I carry slugs for:

- putting down injured animals;
- vehicles;
- barricades/cover;
- body armor.

We have 870s, most with 6-rd. extended mags, 6-rd. side-saddles, slings and lights. About half have slug sights, the others were upgraded from older guns and have beads only.

Since I carry an AR with a sling and a light, and my vehicle has mounts for both anyway, I carry also an older 870 with no light, sling or extended mag, loaded with four 00 buck for social work, and slugs only in the side-saddle.

I figure I'll choose the AR if I have time, but if I roll up on something going down fast like a vehicle stop or parking lot shootout, I can deploy the shotgun faster, not have to monkey with the sling, hands on the controls, find the bead and kaboom four times (x9).

Vehicle stop or guy doesn't stay down, select slug, combat load, kaboom (x6), then transition.

I used to carry only 2 or 3 slugs in the side-saddle, but one of the Wise Old Men argued that loads shouldn't be mixed lest the wrong one get pulled in the heat of battle, so I decided to go slug only. I figure that if it can be solved with buckshot, four rounds is enough.
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Old March 27, 2008, 09:08 AM   #44
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If you want to stack enough layers of Kevlar you can stop anything, though at some point it will look like a winter jacket.
The problem is the resulting blunt force trauma under the Kevlar.
A high power rifle hit tothe center o the chest with only soft body armor can lead to all sorts of internalk damage, like ruptured organs.
A plate allows the force to be dissipated over a much larger area resulting in very little damage beyond some bruises.
The problem with plates is thay they are damaged when struck (often fractured).

Bullet resistant glass can be made thick enough to stop any small arm, but it gets pretty unwieldy at 3 inches and up in thickness.
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Old March 27, 2008, 12:26 PM   #45
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A high power rifle hit tothe center o the chest with only soft body armor can lead to all sorts of internalk damage, like ruptured organs.
First, a high power rifle round will not be stopped with only soft body armor.

Second, while I've heard of fractured ribs and severe bruising from getting hit with a large caliber handgun round while wearing a soft vest, I've never heard of anything more.

Since getting hit with a large caliber handgun round is like getting hit with a major league fastball, I'm going to figure that getting hit with a shotgun slug is like getting hit with an aluminum bat swung pretty damn hard.

This will surely cause major discomfort, bruising and probably a broken rib or two. If it hits directly above the heart it might be enough shock to cause the heart to stop.

But I highly doubt that it will "rupture internal organs" or "go through the body and snap the spine." Organs (with the exception of the liver) are very pliable things and can deform and spring back to shape with ease. Read Fackler.
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Old March 27, 2008, 01:30 PM   #46
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First, a high power rifle round will not be stopped with only soft body armor.
Stack enough layers and it WILL be stopped.
Since the blunt force trauma would be excessive nothing like this is practical and we use trauma plates to spread the impact.

Quote:
But I highly doubt that it will "rupture internal organs" or "go through the body and snap the spine." Organs (with the exception of the liver) are very pliable things and can deform and spring back to shape with ease. Read Fackler.
And organs filled with liquid like hearts, stomachs, intestines, bladder or even the liver and spleen can rupture.
Blunt force trauma from beatings (often with objects) is a common cause of these types of injuries.
Even blast impact at high enough pressure levels results in internal organ damage.

Snapping the spine seems a little far, unless the impact was in the back over the spine.
At that point all bets on spinal injury are off.
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Old March 30, 2008, 09:49 PM   #47
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Back in the mid 70's I was "plinking" with college roommate (whose Dad ran a automobile body shop) at their private "dump yard" in a West Texas pasture. We located a 1963 Chevy Impala with the engine removed. (This was back in the days when cars had far more steel than plastic.)

To see what it would do, I put 1-ounce Foster slug through the front grille. It subsequently went through the radiator, the (steel) firewall, the (steel) dash, through the front seat, the back seat and exited the trunk. We found the slug flattened out and finally stopped inside the heavy chrome rear bumber.
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Old March 31, 2008, 11:54 AM   #48
David Armstrong
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if you think "precision shooting" can be done with slugs you need more range time
Well, with my Beretta 1201 I used to shoot cloverleafs at 40 yards with slugs, and could keep them in a paper plate at 100 yards. Slugs turn a good 30 yards and in weapon into a good 100 yard weapon.
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Old March 31, 2008, 06:42 PM   #49
Doggieman
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lol for my purposes anything within a human-torso-sized target at 50 yards is precision shooting. Unless you're a military (or guerilla) sniper you'll never need to do better than that.
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Old March 31, 2008, 07:47 PM   #50
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I believe Aguila makes a short slug shell that would probably work better for HD.
They do, its called the mini-slug.I dont see why it would be "better" for home defence though...You can carry more in the magazine but thats about it. It still has the same weight, velocity, and terminal ballistics. Just doesnt mave a big wad:P
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