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Old March 11, 2008, 11:43 AM   #1
38snapcaps
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Neighborhood lockdown!

On the news was an interview with a witness to two punks entering a house across the street with guns and he heard shots fired. He called 911 and the dispatcher told him to run to his basement and stay there as the police were going to lock down the entire neighborhood while SWAT attempted to find the shooters.

This just makes me boil over, the government is now telling ADULTS to cower in fear while the "authorities" take care of the threat. We have a whole generation of kids being taught in public schools to not take care of themselves or take responsiblity for their own safety. Rely on the government for your safety!

This country would have never become anything if our society acted like it does today. We never would have settled the land, never would have beat back dictators in the 1940's, or stared down the Soviets. Our people are becoming (or allready are) a nation of quivering, cowardly sheep, and are herded for the slaughter!

Now, tell me what would YOU have said to the 911 dispatcher and what would you have done.
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Old March 11, 2008, 11:48 AM   #2
Dave P
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I hear ya - around here, it seems that every time someone passes gas, the local schools get locked down and searched :barf:
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Old March 11, 2008, 12:27 PM   #3
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Move to second floor window where I could keep an eye on the house, weapon ready but on the floor.

You don't think the dispatcher just was trying to keep an external party from getting shot by SWAT?

Most gun owners, and I include myself in this, are not trained to go clear a house, by themselves...

By the way, what was your answer to your question?
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Old March 11, 2008, 12:31 PM   #4
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No thanks - I wont cower in my basement! I will be in a strategic mode, but wont stand by a window with visible weapon as I might just become a perpetrator to the cops. I would protect my family and self, but not worry about outside belongings at that moment. Would definately stay inside of home until dust settles - Heck if the cops want to risk getting shot by a bad guy and do the hard work of finding the BG, I wont stop them.
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Old March 11, 2008, 12:50 PM   #5
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I'm not sure which part of that upset you:

1) "Locking down the neighborhood": I suppose it could be annoying that the government is temporarily limiting your freedom to come and go as you please.

2) "authorities taking care of the threat" : The police are our employees, and they are merely doing the dangerous job that we taxpayers pay them to do. Are you saying that you would rather have armed residents of the neighborhood go outside carrying weapons and try to apprehend the armed criminals? Do you not see any disadvantages with that plan, such as the possible lack of training in the average citizen?

So, please tell us what you would have done in your ideal society. If all you mean is that the police should continue chasing the suspects but not "lock down" the neighborhood, then I concede that you may have a point.
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Old March 11, 2008, 01:06 PM   #6
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Call in an air strike on the house with the perps in it. That is what would happen in my happy world. If we can hit a school buss moving at 22,000mph then I think they can hit a house that is sitting still.
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Old March 11, 2008, 01:17 PM   #7
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Quote:
never would have beat back dictators in the 1940's,
Uh - that was the Armed Forces - trained to do their job and doing it (kinda like the police in this case)

Quote:
stared down the Soviets
Uh - that was the Armed Forces again.

For the majority of people (who do not own guns) - the basement is a good safe place to be if a fire fight starts on the street.
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Old March 11, 2008, 01:22 PM   #8
GeorgeF
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Well, the basement is where I'd head first - thats where the safes are.

THEN I would meander back upstairs and keep an eye out for what's going on.
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Old March 11, 2008, 01:33 PM   #9
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Yeah, I guess it would be appropriate for me answer my own question:

I would WANT to tell the dispatcher I am fully capable of defending myself and will remain in my home but I will not hide in my basement, but I think in reality I would say nothing but get my family together, lock doors, and arm myself. I would certainly not hide in my basement, what do I have to be afraid of? "A fully armed man has his possessions secure".

My main point is not the loss of freedom to go out for a walk, but the authoritarian attitude of the police department that they feel they can totally lock down a whole neighborhood at their command with no thought that the citizens of said neighborhood may be quite able to take care of themselves.

If you saw the news clip you could see the guy (around age 50) was totally ready to give in to any command as long as it was "for his safety". He should have had a little guts. What, he isn't able or willing to defend his home or family? He's going to let someone else do it for him?

Lewis & Clark, Teddy Roosevelt, George Patton, Wyatt Earp, all would laugh as such a notion. My neighbor, an 82 yr. old WW II Marine sure wouldn't hide in his basement. He is probably the last generation of real men, real Americans, that believes in self reliance.

This just seems to me to be another example of incremental police state socialism and another case of conditioning the sheep to rely on and obey the "authorities".
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Old March 11, 2008, 02:16 PM   #10
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Lewis & Clark, Teddy Roosevelt, George Patton, Wyatt Earp, all would laugh as such a notion
Probably, but even in their day, those were not average Americans.

Quote:
My neighbor, an 82 yr. old WW II Marine sure wouldn't hide in his basement. He is probably the last generation of real men, real Americans, that believes in self reliance.
I think that totally disrespects all those that have worn the uniform.

If the dispatcher had said "stay in the house" versus "the basement", would this even be a discussion?

Sorry this got under your skin, 38, but honestly you are making sweeping generalizations and out of context historic references for effect.

While no one can understate the sacrifices of our Veteran's of WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, the one fact no one mentions is that there was a draft, so many of the people ended up in uniform because they had to be there. Once there, they were brave and selfless, and made our nation what it is. I served my entire career with volunteers who had a choice and decided to go in harm's way. I would bet, if there was a draft and everyone had to serve, you would see the same great service that people think is lost.
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Old March 11, 2008, 03:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
So, please tell us what you would have done in your ideal society. If all you mean is that the police should continue chasing the suspects but not "lock down" the neighborhood, then I concede that you may have a point.
I am not diminishing the challenging job a police officer faces daily. They work hard for little income. I support police and am friends with many - I was in the Chautauqua County Sheriff's dept. as a CO for 7 years so I can speak with some experience. We should lock down jails, not schools, neighboroods, etc.
My problem, is I dont believe in the Lockdown mentality of society - They lockdown my children's school or a mall to get a job done, but I think getting the kids out instead of keeping them locked in a crime scene that police likely may not have in control can be a disaster. Get them the hell out of danger immediately if it exists.
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Old March 11, 2008, 05:58 PM   #12
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Actually, the basement is the most defensible and bulletproof space in my house.
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Old March 11, 2008, 08:27 PM   #13
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Maybe the dispatcher knew that his gunsafe was in his basement
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Old March 11, 2008, 08:31 PM   #14
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i would stay right in my living room... guns sitting right next to the 'puter desk with the phone on it. I know of few basements that have either a decent exit or better cover than the home above them.
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Old March 11, 2008, 08:53 PM   #15
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i would stay right in my living room... guns sitting right next to the 'puter desk with the phone on it.
Brent
The dispatcher's advice was sound, and here's why. When SWAT enters the picture in a situation like this, they're in "active shooter" mode. They're not in condition red; they're in condition bright, florescent, glowing red (and that's only because I can't think of a condition higher than red ) Safeties are off and they're looking for a fight.

Now, you've got the wife and kiddies huddled all safe behind your wood framed walls, SWAT flushes the BG's and a firefight ensues. SWAT's trained to avoid collateral damage, but it's highly unlikely that any BG is going to give a rat's behind where his rounds go. Now given the likelihood of bullets buzzing around like a hive of P.O.'d bees, I think I'd want my family behind something more bullet proof than the average home's walls (granted: brick homes are the exception, but those still have windows)

Quote:
I know of few basements that have either a decent exit or better cover than the home above them.
Man, the one thing I really... REALLY hate when I'm clearing a building is going down steps into a cellar. It's a fatal funnel with no other way in. So from a defensive standpoint, it's the one place I'd prefer to make a stand .
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Old March 11, 2008, 08:55 PM   #16
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Ok guys lets try this. There is going to be some shooting going on the the hood. THIS IS THE POLICE. PLEASE GO OUTSIDE AND SIT ON THE FRONT PORCH. That makes far more sense than telling people to get where they will not get hit with the bullets the a**holes may start popping of. Far better to go sit on the front porch!! as a Marine who has seen bullets fly i will be the first one to take cover. I will also be armed and stand ready to take care of business!!
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Old March 11, 2008, 09:28 PM   #17
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I love living in Florida, but there's times I wish I HAD a basement, like when a tornado is coming through, or if some BG's are out there shooting up the neighberhood. Great place to go and set up your own bunker.
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Old March 12, 2008, 09:44 AM   #18
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Man, you know bullets can go thru walls...who knows where the hell they could start flying...

You wanna be out in the open, that's your call. me? i'd choose a VERY thick brick wall to be behind, mostly shielded from strays, with just an eye to watch, probably holding a rifle, but then again a police sniper from 500 yards away could mistake me for one of them and blow my brains out.

The 911 operator has no idea what these guys might do, what kind of weapons they have...remember north hollywood? people were injured blocks away. or you could wind up being taken hostage and the situtation becomes much, much worse. imho, the operator gave you the best advice for your own health, as well as for the situation at hand.

There's a big difference b/t being chicken and being smart/realistic. You gotta know when to hold em...know when to fold em...well, you know the rest

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Old March 12, 2008, 10:35 AM   #19
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I'd grab my PC-9 (Keep it out of sight of course), keep the phone with me, and observe the neighborhood through the windows. What better way to keep collateral damage down than by keeping the police up to date.
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Old March 12, 2008, 11:18 AM   #20
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The reason they say that is because they don't want a wild round hitting you. It isn't they want you to coward. Also with the team comes spotters on the scene if they see you with a gun in the window, all I can tell you is now you are a suspect until the matter is resloved. These aren't always done, but are definately trained in a lot areas. Be smart, there is a reason that person on the phone is telling you to respond a certain way.
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Old March 12, 2008, 12:31 PM   #21
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I would certainly not hide in my basement, what do I have to be afraid of?
Errant rounds from high-powered rifles zipping through your walls.
Quote:
My main point is not the loss of freedom to go out for a walk, but the authoritarian attitude of the police department that they feel they can totally lock down a whole neighborhood at their command with no thought that the citizens of said neighborhood may be quite able to take care of themselves.
Nothing authoritarian about it. The dispatch gave you good advice to improve your safety. As for taking care of yourselves, vigilante justice went out of favor long ago.
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He is probably the last generation of real men, real Americans, that believes in self reliance.
I've got at least two generations of experience that would disagree with that idea.
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Old March 12, 2008, 02:41 PM   #22
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My neighbor, an 82 yr. old WW II Marine sure wouldn't hide in his basement. He is probably the last generation of real men, real Americans, that believes in self reliance.
tell him thanks for his service. Not to many ww2 folks out there. MyGrandpa was a Bataan survivor, look it up. Lost 3 or 4 uncles depending on if you count insanity after normandy a casulaty.

Nephew is a marine, he would go look for em and he is trained for that stuff. My family will be in the basement so no errant bullets kill em off. I care a lot for em you see and safety if always first and foremost.
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Old March 12, 2008, 02:46 PM   #23
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RIGHT! 911 should have told him to grab a couple guns and run across the street to confront them!

Seriously, with police on the way what do you expect the 911 operator to tell someone to do?
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Old March 12, 2008, 02:52 PM   #24
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Nephew is a marine, he would go look for em and he is trained for that stuff. My family will be in the basement so no errant bullets kill em off. I care a lot for em you see and safety if always first and foremost.

Marines are trained for combat and not law enforcement. He should go in the basement and defend it. Besides, if he just totes a gun and starts searching in the street - guess who might look like a bad guy.
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Old March 12, 2008, 03:05 PM   #25
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Besides, if he just totes a gun and starts searching in the street - guess who might look like a bad guy.
I will tell him thatwhen he comes back home Cousins got out of the service went right into the local police force after attending the school in Nebr.

He is trained to clear a house, they do that a lot. I do belive he would be in the house protecting the ones there, I was being a little silly there.

I also have some training but would not leave the house as my first job is to protect those I love first and foremost. Let my dogs have em they need the protein
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