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Old March 11, 2008, 11:32 AM   #1
revance
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CVS Robberies

So there have been a string of robberies at CVS stores in my area where the BG rounds up all the employees and patrons and makes them go into an office while he cleans out the registers and steals booze. He never displayed a weapon, but told everyone he had a gun and kept his hand up inside his coat sleeve.

I would like to address this question to those who have posted in the various "would you interrupt an armed robbery" threads saying that you would lay low and hope statistics work in their favor and the BG takes the money and runs. I'm not addressing these people because I think they are right or wrong, but rather I would like ask people who have shown they are very conservative in their decision to act.

Question: Would your decision to lay low and wait it out change if the BG started rounding up employees and patrons telling them to get in an office? What if you had an opportunity to hide or flee? As always, please explain.

The usual argument against taking action in a robbery is that its not worth endangering yourself or killing someone over "stuff". Do you think these actions would give you reason to believe it isn't just money and "stuff" on the line?

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't turn this into the same old argument about whether or not to take action against a robber! I really just want to see how people who have a "stay out of it" mentality would treat this and if these circumstances differentiate it from a regular hold up robbery.
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Old March 11, 2008, 09:12 PM   #2
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I'm not going into any office, with anyone, under any circumstances....period!

BG better be ready for a gunfight and he better have been going to the range more than twice a month for 4-6 hours each time, practicing his headshots......because I do.

I don't/wouldn't care if his sleeve is empty or not, if he points it at me, its the last thing he'll ever do besides hit the floor with two more holes in his head, like a sack of potatoes. He said he had a gun and I believe him.
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Old March 11, 2008, 09:15 PM   #3
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For a long time I leaned toward the " stay out of it" side.

Then there were a string of roberies in which either the clerk was shot or clerk and patron both were shot. Two or three deaths occured. One patron was laying on the floor and one was in his car and was shot at as BGs fled.

If I'm being herded into a group with those in the store...well...I just don't think I could stand it. To be pushed to the back room just to be murdered. NO. Not for me.

If ever there is a reason to make a stand, thats it.

Mark.

ps: the BGs were teenagers...15 to 19 yrs old...one shooter was a girl.
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Old March 11, 2008, 09:19 PM   #4
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I'm not a herd type animal
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Old March 11, 2008, 09:34 PM   #5
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I was one who voted to let the robbery happen back in that post way back. This case is different for me personally, because I'm being told to comply and let this BG trap me in a room.

Let's just say in this scenario, I would not comply.
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Old March 11, 2008, 09:48 PM   #6
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Quote:
So there have been a string of robberies at CVS stores in my area where the BG rounds up all the employees and patrons
Quote:
Then there were a string of roberies in which either the clerk was shot or clerk and patron both were shot.
If I had a good indicator that I or anyone wouldn't be shot I would(I think) hold off with LF.

Now if the indicator was these GB's were killing, Then we are going to have us a contest, and I am a cheater!
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Old March 12, 2008, 07:25 AM   #7
revance
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Quote:
I was one who voted to let the robbery happen back in that post way back. This case is different for me personally, because I'm being told to comply and let this BG trap me in a room.

Let's just say in this scenario, I would not comply.
This is what I was wondering. Seems to me the second they do anything other than "give me the money" all bets are off. Rounding people up and making them all go somewhere screams "hostage situation" to me.

The purpose of my OP was mostly to see if others felt these actions would imply the BG was planning something worse than a quick hold up robbery. In this case, he wasn't... but there is no way to know that ahead of time.
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Old March 12, 2008, 09:10 AM   #8
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Answer remains the same

As far as legal, moral, and ethical justification goes, if somebody wants to use a weapon to rob or coerce me, they are fair game until they cease in such attempts. I am not going to attempt to read their minds to determine if they really want to do me any harm.

So, would I feel justified in use of lethal force? Yes.

Would I use lethal force? Maybe.

The answer to that question would depend on if I felt I could get clear sightlines, avoid endangering other victims, etc.

But no way on earth am I being herded into a room. If they try that, there will be a fight.
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Old March 12, 2008, 01:05 PM   #9
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Like I always say, I won't know until the situation actually happens.
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Old March 12, 2008, 06:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
But no way on earth am I being herded into a room. If they try that, there will be a fight.
Gotta give a big +1 on that.
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Old March 12, 2008, 07:41 PM   #11
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circumstantially dependent of course but being 'herded' is a situ that could rapidly turn into a massacre. even at the risk of being shot I likely would attempt to draw and engage.
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Old March 12, 2008, 08:40 PM   #12
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Here in the Chicago area we've had several instances of employees and/or customers being herded into the back and killed. Recently at a clothing store. Most famous was the Brown's Chicken massacre from a few years ago.
Our overlords don't trust us to walk around with weapons here but, rather than comply, I'd be willing to engage in risky behaviour to resist and fight back.
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Old March 12, 2008, 09:26 PM   #13
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No way in hell I'm going into the back office either. I own a restaurant. If someone tried to "herd" me into the cooler, I'd assume they are going to kill me. This happened in a Wendy's up in New York quite a few years back. I think about 6 people were killed.

I'm with Thesenator on this one... If he says he has a gun, I'm going to assume he does. Ooops... He was bluffing??? TFB... Too Friggin Bad!

COMPLIANCE DOES NOT GAURANTEE SURVIVAL!!!

A restaurant owner fully complied with a robber down here in Miami. After he gave up the money, the robber shot him in the face. He had no friggin rhyme or reason to. Gang initiations often require pledges to kill someone. Sorry... but I bust my hump to be a positive member of society. If some punk gets killed for holding up a place... Too bad.
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Old March 12, 2008, 11:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
COMPLIANCE DOES NOT GAURANTEE SURVIVAL!!!
So true.....yet still so many sheep!

There's also been our fair share of "cashier complies and still dies" robberies in my area over the years as well. If someone comes in a store I am occupying saying "I have a gun" and/or "This is a robbery," then there is absolutely, positively, without-a-doubt, NO WAY IN 17 DIFFERENT TEMPERATURES OF HELL that I'm going to even THINK about complying. He's getting drawn down on and told to not move until police arrive to take him into custody. His failure to comply with me will be a fatal error on his part.

Flame me all you want with the legalities/liabilities of such an action, but I'd sooner be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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Old March 12, 2008, 11:36 PM   #15
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I won't even comply to lay down on the ground. Since these are rarely a first time action by a robber they become a bit complacent expecting absolute compliance. Most don't expect a full on charge from a "victim" and i intend to win. If he has a gun visible i will try to get inside his reach. If he thinks faking a gun is gonna work everytime he just rolled snake eyes and got dealt Aces and Eights!
I am in no way super bad ass but will use the element of surprise and other tactics to put him on to his guard and in a defensive posture. If I am armed with knife or gun i will draw on them too...
I just refuse to allow myself to be a victim without fighting to my death since my safety is not guaranteed in any situation where a criminal is in control.
Brent
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Old March 13, 2008, 05:04 AM   #16
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Legalities and liabilities

I live in Florida. There are no legal or liability issues with defense of self or a third party from an armed robber.

Survivors can always attempt to sue, but the way the laws are written here they don't have much chance of winning, assuming their cases aren't dismissed out of hand.

I'm a bit confused by people who would worry about liability issues when confronted by a BG threatening people with a weapon.
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Old March 13, 2008, 08:25 AM   #17
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I do NOT spend boucoup bucks on ammo and training, and many hours on practice so some scumbag can herd me into a small room and shoot me in the back...
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Old March 13, 2008, 08:58 AM   #18
ActivShootr
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If he started shooting the employees I would say engage the threat. If he doesn't display a weapon and you shoot him, you may have just shot an unarmed man (the old finger in coat pocket gag). Besides, if he wasn't going to shoot and you pull out your gun and yell FREEEEZE, he might decide to start shooting.

If he is dumb enough to rob at gunpoint sans gun, chances are he is not clever enough to make a clean getaway. Give a good description to the cops.
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Old March 13, 2008, 09:14 AM   #19
MLeake
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Reasonable man theory

If a robber claims to have a weapon, and acts in a manner that suggests he has one, then it really doesn't matter if he's faking it. More to the point, there's no way for you to know he is bluffing, and it's very dangerous for you to assume that he is.

If a reasonable person would think he is armed, then for legal purposes, he is armed.

We have way too many instances where I live of robbers shooting people whether they comply or not. One of the more recent victims was an off-duty city policeman, who died of a single gunshot to the torso.
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Old March 13, 2008, 09:17 AM   #20
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Quote:
If he started shooting the employees I would say engage the threat. If he doesn't display a weapon and you shoot him, you may have just shot an unarmed man (the old finger in coat pocket gag)
So what? SO WHAT?

If he wants to make a reasonable person believe that he has a gun, then a reasonable armed person will proceed on that premise rather than trying to read minds.

Quote:
Besides, if he wasn't going to shoot and you pull out your gun and yell FREEEEZE, he might decide to start shooting.
Besides, if he was going to shoot you and you didn't pull out your gun, you'd be about 21 feet behind schedule.

This is not the appropriate stance to take with a violent criminal:
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Old March 13, 2008, 10:55 AM   #21
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Several incidents come to mind. They all happened a number of years ago, so this "herding up, killing" is not new:

Bob's Big Boy restaurant: 4 employees herded into a walk-in freezer and shot to death.

A large shopping mall multi-movie theater complex: 4 employees herded into managers office and shot to death.

A small cellular phone business in a "strip" mall: 2 employees shot to death in rear storage room.

Another Bob's Big Boy restaurant: manager was shot to death while unlocking the office safe....only because he was trying to remove his wedding ring while he worked the combination of the safe.

In all of these incidents, the employees were not armed, and were subject to termination IF they were caught carrying a firearm at work.

In all of these incidents, the locations weren't in "bad" parts of town. In fact, they were all in relatively low crime "nice" areas.

In all of these incidents, the killings took place out of view of the public.

In all of these incidents, except for the manager trying to save his wedding ring from being stolen, the employees appeared to have fully complied with the demands of the shooter(s).

Even if you have 110% "situational awareness" of your surroundings, you may not be 100% "safe", no matter where you are.

Having brought up all of these items for you to ponder, I can only say that it's up to YOU, personally, to exercise your #1 "weapon"....your brain....and to realize that being "herded" into a back room or out of view might actually end up being a "slaughter". Use your "situational awareness", and don't get stuck in "gun mode only" as a way to survive! Think "What can I use as an effective ruse, or make-shift defensive 'weapon'?"

Lastly, an incident with a "happy ending"! A robber entered a crowded liquor store and pushed his way to the sales counter where he pulled out a sawed-off shotgun. The robber was wearing a ski mask. While the employee was emptying the cash register, a customer was able to "arm" himself with a bottle of wine from one of the racks. That customer was also able to sneak up on the robber and hit him solidly in the temple, which caused him to drop the shotgun and fall to the ground. A few other customers jumped on the robber, and the employee retrieved the shotgun.

I was a LEO at the time, and responded to the "Robbery in progress" radio call at the liquor store. My partner and I arrived within less than 2 minutes after the initial phone call. The suspect (robber) was definitely hurting, and even mouthed the words, "Kill me!"

The "hero"? A 19 year old illegal alien from Mexico! He was worried about his immigration status when we were conducting our initial investigation! Heck, I wanted to give him "instant" U.S. citizenship for what he had done! He DID, in fact, benefit from his heroism, for he was granted a "green card", and stayed in the USA to testify in the criminal trial. (He also got a case of beer....or so I heard....from the owner of the liquor store).

You have to admire someone like that! A wine bottle "weapon"? That was truly "situational awareness" at its best!
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Old March 13, 2008, 11:16 AM   #22
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Quote:
If he doesn't display a weapon and you shoot him, you may have just shot an unarmed man (the old finger in coat pocket gag).
Shouldn't bring a finger to a gun fight.

Quote:
Besides, if he wasn't going to shoot and you pull out your gun and yell FREEEEZE, he might decide to start shooting.
If you've never been a cop or soldier, you have absolutely zero business trying to control such a situation with voice. Sorry, but you don't. Cops, and many soldiers, HAVE controlled a number of situations with voice, and know how to use inflection, body language, etc, to help guarantee compliance.

Bad guys know this. Bad guys recognize this.

Bad guys do not want an off-duty cop/soldier as part of their robbery pool because they KNOW off-duty cops/soldiers WILL shoot their ass dead when defending themselves and the group they're a part of.

And if you pull out your gun and the bad guy decides to pull out HIS gun, you'd damned sure better have made the decision the nano-second you pulled your weapon that you had every intention of using it and using it lethally.

Again, if you've not been a cop or soldier, you have no business using your weapon as a persuasive or negotiating tool.

Jeff
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Old March 13, 2008, 11:42 AM   #23
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Thanks, TexasSeaRay

I much enjoyed your, "Shouldn't bring a finger to a gun fight"!!!

And you've skillfully blended that funny {but great} quip with the sobering, "Again, if you've not been a cop or soldier, you have no business using your weapon as a persuasive or negotiating tool." Hey, I'm NOT playing "judge" here; I'm just sharing the way I feel about a comment I think is good.
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Old March 13, 2008, 04:04 PM   #24
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Two observations:

1. There are no instances where a LEO surrendered his (her) weapon and the villian let them go free. They have all been killed or a serious attempt made to kill them.

2. There are no instances where villians have 'herded' employees and patrons into a back room and then left without further action. Typically the people are killed, sometimes raped prior to killing.

A good man with whom I worked was murdered by being shot in the back at an ATM late last week. He offered no resistance other than trying to flee.

My own considered opinion is fully cooperating and surrendering to an assailant or armed aggressor is unmitigated folly and will only benefit the aggressor. (Which is not to say one can't feign cooperation in order to gain a tactical advantage.) I will resist; violently if need be.


TexasSeaRay, "Shouldn't bring a finger to a gun fight" is a most enlightened concept. Or I have phrased the sentiment, "He nearly scared me to his death."
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Old March 14, 2008, 07:48 AM   #25
ActivShootr
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So would someone be legally justified in shooting a person who does not have a visible weapon?
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