The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old March 23, 2008, 09:31 PM   #76
carl11acr
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2008
Location: Rose OK
Posts: 9
Had the threat been true and the perp started to shoot his way into a home and all you did was call 911 an entire family could have been wiped out before the police arrived, you did good.

Carl 11ACR
http://www.3rdhowitzerbattery11-acr.com/

Allons
"Find The :censor: – Then Pile On" George S. Patton the 3rd 1968
The idea of an automatic weapon is to set up a wall of fire, accuracy is not the objective.
__________________
Allons
"Find The :censor: – Then Pile On" George S. Patton the 3rd 1968
Yes its true, alcohol destroys brain cells but only the bad ones.
carl11acr is offline  
Old March 24, 2008, 12:55 AM   #77
50calfan
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 24, 2008
Posts: 2
i would have loaded up baby
50calfan is offline  
Old March 24, 2008, 08:50 AM   #78
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Yes, but....

... while I don't disagree with readying a weapon, that's light-years away from scoping a person with the rifle.

Keep a pair of binocs or a separate scope stored alongside your rifle, so you can use that, and not scope around the neighborhood sweeping your muzzle over everything and looking like a sniper.

Frankly, if I saw one of the neighbors looking around the neighborhood through a riflescope, I'd call 911 about HIM...

As far as the guy flaming WildAlaska, WA isn't saying never take action, he's saying call 911 before or as you take action. That way, if you are taken out, somebody is still able to respond. Note: This is what they taught us for sentry duty, as well, except it was make the radio call prior to engaging, just in case you aren't victorious.
MLeake is offline  
Old March 24, 2008, 11:51 AM   #79
carl11acr
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2008
Location: Rose OK
Posts: 9
Where did he say that he was scopepng around the neighborhood?

He saw an armed person dressed all in black walking away from a vehicle he didn’t recognize, he then ID that person as non hostile he then lowered his weapon and observed from inside his home, a 911 call was not needed.

Not only did he do the right thing he also prevented making a false alarm.

Hesitation on target ID is just as bad as jumping the gun and I commend his judgment under stress.
__________________
Allons
"Find The :censor: – Then Pile On" George S. Patton the 3rd 1968
Yes its true, alcohol destroys brain cells but only the bad ones.
carl11acr is offline  
Old March 24, 2008, 09:44 PM   #80
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
He identified the airsoft using 9x mag on his riflescope

That is scoping around the neighborhood, in my book.

You don't identify hostile vs non-hostile through the riflescope, if you have any other option. An AD/ND while performing the ID would be disastrous. Also, if the kid had noticed that he was being looked at, then what?

If the OP didn't have binocs or a separate scope available at that time, then he should invest in some now.

I'm amazed that several posters here seem to think this was a sound practice. It's fundamentally opposed to anything they would teach military or police, which is probably why you'll notice that most of the vets posting here are saying, "hey, that wasn't a good idea."
MLeake is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 10:15 AM   #81
carl11acr
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2008
Location: Rose OK
Posts: 9
So this is ok?

Quote:
I don't remember whether it was airsoft, but he had a Beretta 92 replica at his middle school. Threatened students and teachers with it, then barricaded himself in a restroom across the hall from a classroom.

Unfortunately, everybody thought it was a real weapon.

SWAT team responded. The kid (14yo 8th grader, I think) was killed by a single shot.
__________________
Allons
"Find The :censor: – Then Pile On" George S. Patton the 3rd 1968
Yes its true, alcohol destroys brain cells but only the bad ones.
carl11acr is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 05:56 PM   #82
Avenger11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2007
Posts: 311
Yes it is!!
Avenger11 is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 06:41 PM   #83
carl11acr
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2008
Location: Rose OK
Posts: 9
Ok lets see, a kid goes in to a school with a toy gun runs down the hall and locks himself in the restroom all other kids think it’s a real gun no shots fired at this time now 911 is placed the cops come in like gang busters knock in the door guns blazing and now a kid is dead. And this is ok. With you!!


Now a man sitting in his living room sees a kid all in black with a gun that looks real but he suspects it may be a toy 911 is not called and a kid lives.


I will back BT 223 each and every time (and a kid lives today thanks to a cool head under stress)
__________________
Allons
"Find The :censor: – Then Pile On" George S. Patton the 3rd 1968
Yes its true, alcohol destroys brain cells but only the bad ones.
carl11acr is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 06:49 PM   #84
Vermont
Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2007
Location: Vermont
Posts: 84
What if it was your kid playing airsoft? Would you be OK with someone pointing a rifle at him from their window? I sure as hell wouldn't. If I saw a guy pointing a gun at my kid out of his window I might have shot him and I bet lots of other people here would have too.
Vermont is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 06:58 PM   #85
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
What if it was your kid playing airsoft? Would you be OK with someone pointing a rifle at him from their window? I sure as hell wouldn't. If I saw a guy pointing a gun at my kid out of his window I might have shot him and I bet lots of other people here would have too.
Your wasting your time trying to get some folks to see reason.

Thank god sometimes for gun control laws.

WildcuznoteverybodyshouldhaveoneAlaska ™
Wildalaska is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 07:11 PM   #86
carl11acr
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2008
Location: Rose OK
Posts: 9
What if it was your kid in the rest room?

The key word is judgment, the right one and you live, the wrong and you don’t.
Every situation is deferent there is no black and white.
__________________
Allons
"Find The :censor: – Then Pile On" George S. Patton the 3rd 1968
Yes its true, alcohol destroys brain cells but only the bad ones.
carl11acr is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 07:36 PM   #87
model70fan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2007
Location: WI, MT
Posts: 247
The kid threatened with and told people the gun was real, these days when a kid says a gun is real and it looks real you have to take them seriously, not like when I was younger and ran around playing army with toy guns that looked plenty real. It is unfortunate that a kid is killed but at 14, much younger really, the kid should know that bad things happen when they run into a school and tell everyone they are going to start shooting. It's sad, but it is a fact of life these days.
__________________
Armed citizens, keeping America free from tyranny since 1776
Rights are like muscles... without excersise they will deteriorate and eventually cease to exist
model70fan is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 07:58 PM   #88
ssilicon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 5, 2005
Posts: 459
I hope there must be more to the sotry because, if the kid holed up in the bathroom by himself, why not just wait him out? Sure, it can take a day even but it's better than taking him out. Now, if the kid comes running out of the bathroom and points the fake gun at anyone, or even just runs out with it and won't put it down, then yeah, you have to do what you have to do.
ssilicon is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 09:00 PM   #89
RAHatto
Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2005
Location: Liberty, SC
Posts: 84
A child can be a martyr for stupid, if they so choose.

Kids do dumb **** and more kids kill officers and soldiers then the public knows. If they always think the gun is a toy first then we would have a lot less people protecting us.
Nobody likes life and death mistakes but second guessing when it could be you that the punk shoots is unacceptable.
IF a kid acts like a criminal with a gun, treat them like a criminal with a gun.
__________________
Rick
If you are Always looking at the big picture, you are Never concentrating on your front sight post.
RAHatto is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 09:08 PM   #90
carl11acr
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2008
Location: Rose OK
Posts: 9
Quote:
the kid should know that bad things happen when they run into a school and tell everyone they are going to start shooting.
Did you know that bad things happen at 14? Or did you feel immortal—the truth.

And don’t you think that the cop being in a controlled situation (no shots fired only one door) take the time to talk to the kid before he opened fired and ending a young life?

The problem with this country today is people overreact make the wrong decision and criticize someone else for there mistakes.
It is better to have a gun pointed at you by a civilian that can interpret the situation and not fire then to be shot by a trigger happy cop.

This is my last post on this matter.
__________________
Allons
"Find The :censor: – Then Pile On" George S. Patton the 3rd 1968
Yes its true, alcohol destroys brain cells but only the bad ones.
carl11acr is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 09:24 PM   #91
Lawyer Daggit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2004
Posts: 1,181
I agree with Wild that your first response should have been to call the Police.

I have no objection with you readying your gun in case the situation escalated nor with you continuing to observe- As I was in my own home I would have not racked the slide at this point- this does not take long to do and is easy enough to do if things escalate. MY view is that from where you were, putting a loaded magazine in the rifle was all you needed to do.

I have a problem with you observing through a rifle sight. You should have grabbed binoculars and observed through those and been ready to relay information via phone to the Police if things escalated.

It is NEVER wise to point a loaded gun at anything that you are not ready to destroy.

I must say I have a problem with replicas and airsoft guns- many are cheaply made and if the orange tip discolours or comes off and they are too similar to the real thing.
Lawyer Daggit is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 09:31 PM   #92
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
the central florida case

The kid convinced other students and some teachers that the weapon was real.

The kid claimed it was real, and acted as though it were real.

The police responded to the circumstances that presented themselves.

This case was tragic, but understandable, and I do not fault the SWAT member who fired when the kid pointed the (simulated) weapon at him, after having claimed that it was real.

In the OP's airsoft case, no verbal threats were made, no known threat existed, and he chose to ID a target he was unsure of through a rifle scope. Again, if he didn't have binocs or a separate scope, he needs to invest in some. It was not acceptable to use a rifle scope for ID purposes in a non-combat environment.

It was foolish for him not to call 911, since he felt threatened enough to ID via his scope.

He was in the wrong on both counts.

Cheers,

M
MLeake is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 09:35 PM   #93
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
response to ssilicon

The reason SWAT opted to go into the restroom was because the restroom door was directly opposite the door to a classroom full of kids.

Faculty and police were afraid to try to remove the kids via that door, with a potential (and self-declared) shooter having them in field of fire through a chokepoint.

While I have not been to that school, most central Florida schools are built to minimize cooling costs, so most classrooms don't have windows. Those that do have windows, generally do not have the sort of windows that could be used for a mass egress.

It was decided that if the gun was real, and if the kid decided to act as he had claimed he would, then he could easily start firing into a room full of kids.

They call this "Suicide by Cop" when done by adults. It's the same thing when done by an adolescent.
MLeake is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 09:42 PM   #94
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
It is better to have a gun pointed at you by a civilian that can interpret the situation and not fire then to be shot by a trigger happy cop.

This is my last post on this matter.
With that comment I hope so.

WildwowAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 09:48 PM   #95
carl11acr
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2008
Location: Rose OK
Posts: 9
It’s nice day for a BBQ
__________________
Allons
"Find The :censor: – Then Pile On" George S. Patton the 3rd 1968
Yes its true, alcohol destroys brain cells but only the bad ones.
carl11acr is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 09:55 PM   #96
TexasSeaRay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 810
Trying to determine and then identify what you perceive to possibly be a threat by way of a scope on a loaded weapon is rarely ever a good idea in any circumstance. In a neighborhood full of non-combatants and you're not a cop, it's never a good idea.

Period.

Anyone who thinks they want to be a hero and pull the trigger on someone, you need to go down to your recruiter's office, sign up, make it through boot camp, then volunteer for Sandland. You'll get your chance.

I doubt very much you'll ever want to do it again. For damned sure, you'll stop and think twice before EVER pointing a loaded/ready weapon at another human being for a "might be" something situatino.

Jeff
__________________
If every single gun owner belonged to the NRA as well as their respective state rifle/gun association, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today.

So to those of you who are members of neither, thanks for nothing.
TexasSeaRay is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 09:58 PM   #97
DonR101395
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2005
Location: NWFL
Posts: 3,029
By some binoculars and dial the cops.
DonR101395 is offline  
Old March 25, 2008, 10:29 PM   #98
Capt Charlie
Staff
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,313
Quote:
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
That, coupled with this...

Quote:
Trying to determine and then identify what you perceive to possibly be a threat by way of a scope on a loaded weapon is rarely ever a good idea in any circumstance. In a neighborhood full of non-combatants and you're not a cop, it's never a good idea.

Period.
...pretty much says it all.

I think this one's run its course.

Closed.
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt Charlie is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12531 seconds with 7 queries