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Old March 11, 2008, 02:13 PM   #26
markj
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Only through the scope on 9 power could I tell that his AR had a dark blue tip.
You pointed a loaded weapon at a kid? This is against the laws of every state better rethink this posting sir.

And he was walking away from you?

I just dont belive the level of fear some are living under.
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Old March 11, 2008, 04:06 PM   #27
bt 223
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What do you think a cop would have done in a similar situation?

If a person dressed in black carrying a semi auto doesn't raise your pulse, what does. Next time I'll wait till shots are fired and then go try to reason with the individual.

He went out in public, with what could be easily mistaken for a real weapon. And was acting in a threatening manner. The police officers I have spoken too have said they would have drawn their weapons, and ordered him to the ground even if it had a orange tip. One even said they have confiscated real guns that had orange tips painted on.
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Old March 11, 2008, 04:54 PM   #28
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Look, I'm not trying to start a fight. I felt my life and, more importantly, the lives of my 3 children were in danger. My walls are not 223 proof. As soon as I saw the situation for what it was, I put the gun away. I hope to never use it for any thing other than coyotes or deer.

In the day in which we, live do you really think the situation, with a real weapon, is far fetched?
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Old March 11, 2008, 05:02 PM   #29
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Look, I'm not trying to start a fight. I felt my life and, more importantly, the lives of my 3 children were in danger. My walls are not 223 proof. As soon as I saw the situation for what it was, I put the gun away. I hope to never use it for any thing other than coyotes or deer.
Stop rationalizing. In the amount of time you took to get your gun, you could have called 9-11 and taken your kids into the basement or whatever.

Guy in black with a gun? What if it had been a cop on an operation..they see you peering out the window with an AR....


Poor judgement.

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In the day in which we, live do you really think the situation, with a real weapon, is far fetched?
Yes.
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Old March 11, 2008, 06:30 PM   #30
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Wild,
That sums it up nicely.The best self-defense is to first use common sense and judgement!!
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Old March 11, 2008, 06:57 PM   #31
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My nephew had one of those guns. It was a dead knockoff of a Beretta 92.
I've got that same gun and it's amazingly accurate. More so than most of my firearms at 20-30 feet. I use it to shoot seagulls away from my property. Doesn't hurt them permanently, but gives them a reason not to stay around and crap all over everything. It does look exactly like the real thing, other than the orange tip.
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Old March 11, 2008, 08:29 PM   #32
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I agree with Wild and the others here, that in an URBAN setting, the correct thing to do is call 911 and then shelter the family, taking DEFENSIVE measures.

BUT, in a rural setting (which I am in) I don't see strangers in close proximity. If I see "perp" with gun, I go to the Bedroom and grab 12ga, I do not confront, but I will use any and all means to dispatch a threat. We have had to call 911 for medical emergency, we had a 10 minute wait. I am 15 miles from the sheriff(at least). I can not rely on them alone to provide protection. Unfortunately for me, most of the time people paying visits around here are burgalars, looting for meth cash.
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Old March 11, 2008, 09:20 PM   #33
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That kid is an idiot.

I disagree with banning realistic replicas. The VAST majority of airsoft owners do not act that stupidly. I am part of the "serious airsoft" crowd, and would HATE to be running around with a clear airsoft rifle. I like my metal airsoft rifle. The only airsoft guns I have seen that have physically broken were plastic.

As for the OP's response, it was reasonable, but there was probably a better alternative than pointing a loaded AR out the window.
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Old March 12, 2008, 02:45 PM   #34
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In the amount of time you took to get your gun, you could have called 9-11 and taken your kids into the basement or whatever.
ding ding nail on head now think about it rationally and not defensivly.


I also live out in the country away from all the keyboard commandos. When I see a guy carrying a rifle I suspect he is coming over to shoot it up at my range back of my hill.
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Old March 12, 2008, 03:05 PM   #35
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When I was a kid, I carried a very realistic 1911 plastic gun and a Thompson SMG - we ran around the streets and pointed them at each other. Didn't become a killer.

Grossman makes the point that toy guns and computer games can teach aggression and prime violence. That has some validity from the literature. However, we also know from the same literature - that more detailed knowledge of firearms and usages decreases aggressive ideation.

The increase in violence can be looked at in two parts - the majority of gun crimes in the USA are due to the drug wars, poverty and broken family situations.

The recent supposed trend of rampage killings has most killers having some kind of preexisting mental illness. It could be the case that the media culture of violence then channels them and gives them methodologies to employ.

However, I don't think the overall violence level is due to gun games. In fact, violent crimes are dropping, gun accidents are down.
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Old March 12, 2008, 03:13 PM   #36
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When I was a kid, I carried a very realistic 1911 plastic gun and a Thompson SMG
Cops and robbers was it man never played cowboys and indians tho, Mom got very upset as her mom is one yep a cowboy,,,,,no no an Indian mom never tolerated any prejudice towards any others cause of race or other reasons. But cops and robbers was it for us
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Old March 12, 2008, 04:30 PM   #37
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However, I don't think the overall violence level is due to gun games. In fact, violent crimes are dropping, gun accidents are down.
Glenn: I agree with the above. And I too played lots of gun games as a kid, and loved them. The problem is not guns or even gun toys, but entertainment for profit (differentiated from political free speech) that uses mindless violence to titillate, and which is devoid of moral context. What I recall from our games as children is that there were good guys and bad, order imposed on chaos, and high moral positions to be defended (e.g.; defeating Nazis, preventing enslavement by extraterrestrials, etc). Now many of the video games seem to simply urge killing as many as you can, because you can, in a moral vacuum. For adolescents, this ain't good.

Jeepers! I sound so conservative!

Incidentally, I'm out the door for a 5-day conference out of town, but am looking forward to reading the stuff on the links you posted when I get back.
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Old March 12, 2008, 05:52 PM   #38
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Kids like "real" looking things. My mom did her best to contain us to fake-looking weapons. But if I could get something that was at least shaped realistically, I had a habit of just painting it. I also ripped out orange tips. I grew up in suburbia and didn't come from a shooting family. Even if I had, I'd have probably disobeyed my parents anyway. What would you expect boys with a lot of energy between the ages of, say, 5 and 12?

As for the situation at hand... I can see both sides. When things seem squirrelly to me, I have investigated with a concealed weapon, but I've also never seen a situation where I would be terribly outgunned with my single-stack, as in the case of an AR. So it's a call I'd prefer not make here. Part of responsibility, whether it's driving a car, owning a gun, or even deciding what you eat, is knowing how to exercise judgment and discretion. While I think the attitude "No harm, no foul" is a bit cavalier, I also think that you can't always second-guess a situation you weren't there for. Where there is value in this is what you take away from it. You have just considered a situation you would not have otherwise, and hopefully thought about yourself in such a situation. Your judgment is now more keenly developed. There's no need to flame anyone. Reasonable people may differ on the interpretation, so focus on what you can take away personally.
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Old March 17, 2008, 05:00 PM   #39
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Cops and robbers was it man never played cowboys and indians tho, Mom got very upset as her mom is one yep a cowboy,,,,,no no an Indian mom never tolerated any prejudice towards any others cause of race or other reasons. But cops and robbers was it for us
Crap. I am an American Indian and we played cowboys and indians all the time. Guess what I played? Yep, a cowboy. There was no prejudice involved. Just a simple child's view on good and bad. But today, I find that most of the kids that volunteered to be indians back then, are now dead. Drug addicts, mostly, but street criminals of all types abound in their numbers. I suspect that even then, they were rebellious enough to actually want to be the "bad guys."
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Old March 17, 2008, 05:05 PM   #40
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My mother is Sicilian

but she always sided with the Indians, except when they were fighting John Wayne.
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Old March 17, 2008, 05:09 PM   #41
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I would have told them. Straight up. I would have said it like this.

1. Im a gun owner. i believe we should be able to own guns.
2. I dont think i should have any problems walking outside to load my car with my guns.
3. I dont think it should be a problem for kids in the neighbor hood to play airsoft or even cap guns.
4. HOWEVER. When you walk the streets with an AR15 with the front end missing the orange tip. You open yourself up to a lot of problems. Especially when you come on my property.
5. Again no problems at all with guns, no problem at all with toy guns. you can play all over the streets any where you want just make sure you have a way of identifying that your gun is a toy. Especially when you come on my property.
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Old March 17, 2008, 05:14 PM   #42
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Gotta love John Wayne spaghetti westerns
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Old March 17, 2008, 05:19 PM   #43
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not trying to be rude to the people who think that this situation could never really happen but you must live in the sticks...i live in a bad part of the bay area and if i saw someone on my street with a AR and all black on i would know for a fact its gunna be a shoot out becuase it happens alot around here...i dont see how you can think it doesnt and wouldnt but maybe not in the stick but in my city its common to hear shots and see it
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Old March 17, 2008, 06:08 PM   #44
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Most don't live in "wild Alaska". I'm in the Detroit Metro Area (loosely) and while it's not at all common for active shooters running the streets it's not really that far away.

I won't comment on whether the reaction was overreaction or not; that's besides the point. We nurture a culture of violence and we then get upset when a small but ever increasing percentage of our youth become extremely effective at becoming violent as they physically mature.

Again, day-glo orange, lime green except for the top of the sight radius. But I'd never purchase one for my child; there ARE no "toy guns" and NRA be damned they are WEAPONS. ACT LIKE IT. There was once a time when a young boy was EXPECTED to have marksmanship skills. That aint today. Today they are expected to "be cool" which includes self-indulgence in all manner of violent games, attitude and demeanor. We do ourselves no good... and we are our own worst enemy.
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Old March 17, 2008, 07:31 PM   #45
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I think I might Jump in here bt 223 . . .



I was actually at Walmart the other day and I passed by the sporting goods section. For the first time I took a real look at those airosofts. The one I held was a dead on replica of a real gun, and, it had no red tip (I thought they were supposed to, but I guess not)


If I saw a teenager outside of my house holding a ar-15 in his hand, I will first assume that it was an airosoft, then while I was thinking I would grab my portable phone and bring it to the room where I keep my guns. (No . . . in this day and age it is not unreasonable to assume that a hyped up teen might open up on a residential neighborhood with an AR. I have seen a real life video of two copy cat columbine teenagers that had leaked out onto the Internet. Someone had apparently got a hold of the video from the video cameras AND the actual 911 recording (being that the teen in question found it amusing to keep the cellphone line open to 911 the whole damn time) and they cut it together. I will tell you this, those boys not only killed, they killed laughing and with a smile on their face. NO, IT IS VERY PLAUSIBLE that a teenager is capable of taking an AR into a neighborhood and "releasing some misplaced anxiety."

Upon peering out the window I would have waited, and watched. No bullets all the better, if there were bullets my first reaction will not be to shoot, it would be to protect my family. I would yell to every one in my house "Get down . . . theres a shooting!" or something like that, and THEN I would call the cops.

If you hit the deck your going to do pretty good against someone "bump firing" (as they call it) a semi-auto and randomly spraying houses. The phone hast to come first if you want to protect 1.) your family 2.) your neighborhood and 3.) yourself. WHY, because you might not win . . . If the Cops are notified, they are going to race their pretty quick considering the content of the call. You could get injured, or worse and then what??? Who's going to protect your family???

Keep in mind, IF there were shots fired, you said yourself, a second "Assailant" appeared that you hadn't noticed before. If he was a REAL assailant, well, I am not Rambo, and I am guessing neither are you, so you VS 2 other AR's is not a possition that any one of us ever want to be in.

MY point, is that be it the best case scenario (airosofts) or the worst possible scenario, (psycoteens) you best bet is to first, notify the cops . AFTER the cops are notified you can then make a tactical assessment depending what is happening. I learned a great deal from the LEO and friends in the military that I have known over the years, and I can tell you this, armed boys in blue dedicated to protect and serve is THE BEST possible thing you can have going for you when the SHTF. No phone call . . . no back up, and then you are on your own.


All that said, I do not feel that you did ANYTHING wrong. As long as you were calm and cool enough to ONLY BE ASSESSING the target at the time that you were peering through your scope. However, next time, make sure that you are near a phone, sometimes a cellphone can be more powerful then the sidearm at you side
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Old March 18, 2008, 01:21 PM   #46
markj
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I am an American Indian and we played cowboys and indians all the time
My Mom was behind all that. She hit us for any racial stuff. made me see we are all the same after removing the skin

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Gotta love John Wayne spaghetti westerns
Uh that was Clint Eastwood sir. John Wayne didnt go to Itally to make movies.

Altho "Once upon a time in America" was itallian and featured many great names. Henry Ford, Charles Bronson t oname a couple.

If Isaw a guy carring a weapon walking away I would first dial 911. Then maybe just maybe Iwould yell at him telling him I called the law then duck cause he might shoot at me. I would use force only and only if he was targetting my house and was a direct threat to myself. Then and only then.

Been shot, it dont feel good at all.
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Old March 18, 2008, 05:45 PM   #47
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Henry Ford?

I think you mean Henry Fonda... He was the bad guy. Did he play the villain in any other movie?

Jason Robards is the other big name that leaps to mind in that movie.

Cheers,

M
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Old March 19, 2008, 10:20 AM   #48
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If it was serious enough for you to point your loaded gun at him, it was serious enough to call the police. You could have been on the phone and still had your weapon ready to protect your family if things got serious.

I don't know if I would have done it differently at the time, but from my cozy living room it seems you could have done better.

No disrespect meant. I'm not sure my answer is the right one. It's just part of a discussion we can learn from.
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Old March 19, 2008, 11:10 AM   #49
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+1 to Vermont

I was always taught that a phone call is essential (or radio call, depending on your scenario), in case you get taken down by the bad guy. Otherwise, who defends the house/base?

Call it in first, engage afterward, if necessary (and possible).
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Old March 19, 2008, 01:02 PM   #50
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"In the amount of time you took to get your gun, you could have called 9-11"

I have far more faith in mi guns than in 911.
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