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Old February 27, 2008, 08:31 PM   #26
Avenger11
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Practicing with your firearm is a very good thing! Common sense is not something you can acquire thru training, practice, or imagining scenarios.
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Old February 27, 2008, 08:42 PM   #27
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The range is useful for basic marksmanship

but it can also be useful to have to move through a police style course, engage targets over cover or through windows, shoot in varying lighting conditions, etc.

And the two are really nothing alike.

From another perspective, I'm a pilot, formerly Navy, now commercial. I meet a lot of people who have private licenses. They enjoy flying, and they fly pretty well. However, the difference in training levels becomes apparent when, say, an engine quits... or something catches fire... or the weather gets suddenly and expectedly bad (and this can happen rapidly in the southeast).

Flying isn't very hard. Flying when conditions go to hell is extremely hard. Training is all the difference in determining odds of survival.

Common sense is a very useful thing, and can help to avoid those situations where training and reflexes become necessary. But sometimes, things just break, and we do tend to fly / shoot / sing karaoke / what have you as we train.
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Old February 27, 2008, 08:48 PM   #28
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If you don't acquire common sense through training and practice, how do you acquire it? What is it, and how do you know if you have it? How will common sense help you to know when to use your weapon (has proposed by BreacherUp!)? How will common sense tell you when you must shoot (as proposed by kgpcr)?

It seems to me that common sense in this context is a pretty amorphous and borderline meaningless concept. Among other things, if you are being asked why you shot, you're going to need to come up with a better answer than, "It was common sense to shoot him."

And sometimes it sounds like the professed reliance on common sense is an excuse to not bother with training.
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Old February 27, 2008, 10:42 PM   #29
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Responsible gun ownership and self protection is 99% common sense and your inate ability to know right from wrong.
If you were born without common sense, then no amount of training will overcome it's absence.
Quote:
Knowledge can be aquired. Training can enhance knowledge.Common sense cannot be taught or aquired thru training.
Common sense can be useless or wrong without contextual knowledge. While any of us might be able to reason out a common sense response to a threat if we have enough time, there may not be enough time to do so without training on how to make it happen. Without training, in time critical high stress situations, many people make decisions that don't reflect common sense decisions.

Quote:
Jeff Cooper used to say, "Having a gun doesn't mean you're armed any more than having a guitar means you're a musician."
Wow, that is just one of those analogies that simply doesn't work.

To be armed is to be in possession of a weapon. Having a gun makes you armed. It doesn't make you a fighter. Cooper's saying would have worked had he said "Having a gun doesn't mean you are a fighter any more than having a guitar means you are a musician.
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Old February 27, 2008, 10:56 PM   #30
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Nope Double Naught Spy, I'll go with the way Jeff Cooper said it. A man isn't really armed unless he can use his weapon effectively. Just having a weapon doesn't mean you can use it effectively. And BTW, what are your qualifications for second guessing Jeff Cooper?
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Old February 27, 2008, 11:27 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breacherup!
Canuck,I gather what you are saying. But scenario trainng does provide more than testing skill sets.
Since you have done CQB, you know that running a hall/room/ danger areas enough times in scenarios, you begin to learn "pattern recognition." PR decreases judgement time and deployment/employment times. Done enough times with a core group, and everyone begins to recognize these patterns and react as a unit. After all, there are only so many ways to skin a cat.
In the same way, going through enough shoot/no shoot scenarios increases PR.
But, I agree that utilizing training scenarios just to learn and defeat that particular scenario, is amateurish.
I do not see anything to disagree with here. What I see is, in essence, an expansion of the concept.

We only ever ran each scenario once in the training cycle, they would even keep it out of circulation for several runs of the course (to prevent the next course from doggin' it, or so I've been told). The PatRec did happen, but what they wanted from us was stimulus (PatRec, of course) to skill set activation. When we were clearing buildings we not only had to be safe in the building we were in, but the buildings around us too. The worst was running a stairwell, clearing the landing and the hall and then getting tapped from across the street from another building after smoking a room. The CIs never let us have a break, from your callsign I'd say you know why and how. Hey did you guys have to throw the buttstock over your shoulder for CQB too? Or did you have 4-pos?
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Old February 28, 2008, 07:11 AM   #32
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you can train tactics and handgun skills. you cant train common sense. The best fight on the street is one you dont get in
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Old February 28, 2008, 07:19 AM   #33
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Nope Double Naught Spy, I'll go with the way Jeff Cooper said it. A man isn't really armed unless he can use his weapon effectively. Just having a weapon doesn't mean you can use it effectively. And BTW, what are your qualifications for second guessing Jeff Cooper?
No, a man with a gun really is armed. Being armed isn't the same thing as being an effective fighter.

What are my qualifications for second guessing Jeff Cooper? First, I am not questioning Jeff Cooper. I am questioning the correctness of the statement. There is a difference. It matters not who said it.

My qualifications have nothing to do with the correctness of the statement. If the statement is accurately reproduced here, it is in error. "Armed" (possession of a weapon) has been confused with (as you put it) being able to fight effectively. You can look it up yourself and by dictionary definition, civilian legal definition, or military definition, to be armed is to be in possession of weaponry. It really is just that simple. The definitions state nothing about the effective ability to use arms.
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Old February 28, 2008, 10:34 AM   #34
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Double Naught Spy,

I'll stick with Jeff Cooper.
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Old February 29, 2008, 01:00 AM   #35
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To expand on my prior post and clarify why Jeff Cooper is correct, the word "armed" doesn't mean only "having a weapon."

For example,

[1] Merriam-Webster Online defines "armed", among other things, as follows:

"1 a: furnished with weapons <an armed guard>; also : using or involving a weapon b: furnished with something that provides security, strength, or efficacy..."

[2] Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language (1989) defines "armed" to include, "...prepared for any specific purpose."

So, as Jeff Cooper is stating, a person who merely has possession of a weapon is not necessarily furnished with the wherewithal to provide security, strenght or efficacy, unless he also has had training to effectively use that weapon. Nor is he prepared for the purpose of effectively using that weapon.

Indeed, when a person says, "I'm armed" he usually intends to mean more than that he has a weapon in his possession. He usually intends to also imply that he can use it effectively.

For example, let's suppose that you're walking with a companion at night. You become suspicious of the surroundings, and you voice your concerns. Your companion, to allay your concerns, says, "Don't worry. I'm armed." Is he merely telling you that he has a weapon on his person? Or is he also trying to convey the notion that he'd be able to handle things if they became unpleasant?
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Old February 29, 2008, 01:35 AM   #36
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*mild observation*

Y'know, online I'm often somewhat surprised at the contortions people go through in order to talk themselves (and everyone else) out of learning how to use the weapons they own. Some people will stand on their heads to avoid admitting that maybe they could learn something about shooting from a professional trainer who works with firearms for a living.

Here's a blurb from a blog I came across a few days ago. I think the writer is right on the money:

Quote:
"What's your life worth?" --People often ask that when the price of a gun is discussed.

Y'know what? Mine's worth about $200, what I paid for a Star BKM in like-new shape. Plus 20 times that in training and range time. And another 20x in ammunition. So far.

The gun is just a tool -- and you do need good tools -- but the true weapon is you. A decent tool in skilled hands beats the finest tool in untrained, clumsy hands.

What's your life worth? Train much with that UtraBlaster 4500?
And here are my own thoughts on the issue: www.corneredcat.com/Learning/class.aspx

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Old February 29, 2008, 02:02 AM   #37
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Great post, Pax. (And BTW, I visit your site from time to time and recommend it to people looking for pointers.)

I don't think shootings particularly fun unless I'm hitting what I'm shooting at, and there's a good chance that a gun won't be much use in an emergency if you can't hit what you need to hit.

There's a lot about shooting, gun handling and personal defense that's not natural or intuitive -- or common sense.
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Old February 29, 2008, 02:24 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedneckFur
training videos and weekend ninja courses
This is the problem anytime you go looking for information, and I don't just mean on the internet. Even in searching through books and magazines you have to do your homework.

And frankly, I've been very disappointed in this area. About seven years ago I honestly went searching for new/better info on self-defense on the internet. I hooked into several SD and MA forums and asked questions and truthfully got involved in discussions.

About three years ago I deleted every stinking one of them from my favorites list. It would have been better and cheaper to have a shaman swing a chicken over my head than to believe anything that I had read. The problems were so bad, so deep and so prevalent that a separate forum started up to research the credentials of guys starting forums.

For all of my wasted time I received no more than posers posing for the camera. I feel silly in even admitting I fell for such hype. To show the depth of insanity, I actually learned more about fighting with edged weapons in a thirty year old book based on prison shiv attacks.

In the end, common sense ain't common. And I'm living proof of that.
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Old February 29, 2008, 07:08 AM   #39
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I am all for weekend training courses its just that crap like Warrior Forge, Ninja camp, is just a bunch of testosterone boosted crap. When you see a guy who wants to offer training and only goes by a number instead of his name then thats a tip off! Practice is a GREAT thing! its just you need to go to a course that will teach to shoot and not thump your chest!
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Old February 29, 2008, 10:47 AM   #40
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lol Tourist, not to make light of my fellow man's suffering. That happens all too often. Part of the problem is that these people are trying to get you to buy into their thinking. If you buy into their thinking, you buy their product.
That includes many of the so called "top notch" schools and instructors. Most try to apply military, MA or LE tactics/techniques to civilian shootings and it doesn't work.

One well known school advocates training and working out to make yourself into a fighting machine. Can that help? Maybe, but common sense tells you that most CCW holders have neither the time nor inclination to do so.

Another claims that seeking cover should be your first concern. Common sense tells you that in civilian incidents cover is rarely available.

Others advocate learning to shoot while moving of off the X. Common sense tells you that shooting while moving is less efficeint unless you practice it to a high degree. Common sense tells you that again most people have neither the time nor inclination to.

Common sense also tells you that the best way to ensure your safety is to remove the threat. The fastest way to remove the threat is to put lead on the target. Common sense tells you that the other guy can't hurt you if he's dead.
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Old February 29, 2008, 11:08 AM   #41
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It's should be noted that one of the benefits of training is an explanation of when not to shoot as much as when to shoot. Movement drills so that one can hit the target without being hit (or hitting a bystander) are an additonal benefit, since many ranges won't permit one to do so in general practice.

Knowing when not to shoot and how not to hit a bystander while "going dynamic" are necessitated by legal restrictions. Such restrictions often are far from common sense, as seen by many of the discussions on this and other forums.

As for common sense, it certianly can be taught. None of us was born with common sense but we were taught it through example and instruction.
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Old February 29, 2008, 12:29 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurper
lol Tourist, you buy their product.
And that's exactly what happened. A never-ending cavalcade of products and pictures. He even had the cajones to send me info on fighting with a Sicilian stiletto. Yikes, I've eaten pasta with a Sicilian stiletto since I was eight years old.

My ultimate problem, and this is speaking in general, is that all of these guys have a "plan." Everything else is flawed. Question the postulate of their philosophy and you're a troll. Do it often enough...

I made two observations in that forum. First, I've never seen "karate kid" moves win a bar-fight. The winner is the guy who clubs you with a barstool or other such furniture. I call it "furn-fu." The other observation I made was that the most dangerous brawlers I know are working cowboys. They absorb tremendous amounts of pain from the chores that would crush us.

In fact, I have gone on record, I won't fight a working cowboy, I surrender.

You can imagine how those observations went over in a forum with a sensei.

Here's my philosophy about knowledge and safety. If I know something, I impart that knowledge for free, not for a fee. You want info on knives because you have a need, I'll chat your ear off until the cows come home. I do pro bono work. I have a soft spot for veterans. Even my religion teaches me that those with gifts do not charge.

The answer to a young kid who tells these guys that he needs info on safety, and they know he is out-matched on the street, should not be a quip about "buying my book." It should be a clear recommendation to a dojo in his area where you have no financial ties.

BTW, do I fear these guys about my firm stand? Absolutely not, I have the ultimate weapon to protect myself from their magical combat training.

I carry a wet paper bag.
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Old February 29, 2008, 03:43 PM   #43
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Common sense

Lurper feels that common sense tells us most CCW holders have neither time nor inclination to get in shape or take any physical self defense training.

Interestingly, most of the CCW holders I know are military or martial arts training buddies. For me, in my microcosm of the world, common sense dictates that most CCW holders try to maintain some sort of physical regimen, and have at least basic training in hand to hand.

Guess it's all where you come from.
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Old February 29, 2008, 03:55 PM   #44
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Quote:
Lurper feels that common sense tells us most CCW holders have neither time nor inclination to get in shape or take any physical self defense training.
Not common sense, experience. We run about 100 people through the CCW course per month. I can tell you that you and you friends are a very small minority of the sample.
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Old February 29, 2008, 07:50 PM   #45
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Note to Lurper

I believe you. I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but I find that discouraging.

Of course, in my civilian occupation, the preponderance of former military, plus the requirement for semi-annual physicals tends to keep people in shape. I work with some guys in their early 60's who are still decent athletes.

It kind of depresses me, when I travel overseas. It's easy to pick out the Americans, in general. They are the fat ones. You rarely see fat people in Italy, Japan, the Philippines...

I will point out an advantage to physical training, aside from health benefits. Generally speaking, a predator type will look at my friends and most likely decide it will be a better idea to wait for an easier looking victim. Being in shape provides not only a different look, but a different demeanor that can be quite handy for keeping the wolves at bay.

Again, this isn't about acting macho, or being the biggest and baddest. It is about training to a point where you are confident in your ability to move, to handle typical situations, and to be able to evade/escape if possible or to engage with decisive violence if necessary.
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Old February 29, 2008, 07:54 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTourist
For all of my wasted time I received no more than posers posing for the camera. I feel silly in even admitting I fell for such hype. To show the depth of insanity, I actually learned more about fighting with edged weapons in a thirty year old book based on prison shiv attacks.
Funny you should mention that. A few friends of mine are scholars of the Renaissance fighting arts/sciences (I am lapsed) and they have made observations that what they have learned from Medievel and Renaissance German fighting texts about dagger (knife) fighting is now being rediscovered in no small part by prisoners. If it works, you win, if you win, you are alive to teach your crew what works, right? Sounds like the Meisters of old. Of strange coincidence, a lot of what I learned about knife fighting in the Army was eerily similar to what we studied in the old German fighting manuals.
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Old February 29, 2008, 08:28 PM   #47
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Discouraging or not, it's true. Nor does that diminish your points about physical fitness. I'm not saying that some of the training isn't good. I'm saying it's not applicable. You can have the best training system in the world, but if your students won't follow it, it can be worse than no training at all. So, it makes more sense to realistically assess your students and develop a program/philosophy that will work for their lifestyle.
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Old February 29, 2008, 08:31 PM   #48
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Tailoring plan to students' abilities

This is true for a lot of activities, not just shooting, so I have to agree with Lurper.

Caveat: If you think a student could realistically benefit from physical training, and would be willing to try it, you should encourage it.

Second caveat: This is easier to accomplish if you lead by example, IE what you do, not just what you recommend.
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Old February 29, 2008, 09:04 PM   #49
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Quote:
Canuck: Hey did you guys have to throw the buttstock over your shoulder for CQB too? Or did you have 4-pos?
"Short-stocking" (buttstock over the shoulder), was common years ago when using a 20" service rifle for MOUT. I believe it has very limited utility.
With the wider usage of 10"-14" rifles for MOUT/CQB, short-stocking is not seen nearly as much. Units today tend to teach keeping the butt in your shoulder, and thus, your sights where they should be.

I love it when combat experience nullifies TTPs created in peacetime.
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Old February 29, 2008, 09:31 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Canuck
dagger (knife) fighting
I agree. Most of the stuff I know is simply prison fighting. One biker handing down a few moves to keep another alive.

I also have 'married' knowledge with invention. The knife I carry is an Emerson design he made for SEALs.
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