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Old February 25, 2008, 07:33 PM   #1
Avenger11
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Training vs Common Sense!

I've read with great interest many threads on this forum and others stressing the need for tactical training for those of us that own a firearm for personal protection. It runs the gamut from regular range time to advanced situational awareness, Ninja type exercises, and a whole host of non-sensical terms used to describe how one should react in a given scenario.
Oh, yes the SCENARIOS. Advanced by those who make their living training the less informed or a figmant of some Machismo's imagination.
Responsible gun ownership and self protection is 99% common sense and your inate ability to know right from wrong.
If you were born without common sense, then no amount of training will overcome it's absence.
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Old February 25, 2008, 07:36 PM   #2
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Common sense and training must go hand in hand. Without one the other is meaningless. All the training in the world is worthless if you don't have the common sense to know when to use it and to what degree and all the common sense in the world is useless if you do not know how to use the tools.

I do agree with you that so many people take it to an extreme. All the nija stuff and planning for firefights is just not needed for the average gun owner.
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Old February 25, 2008, 07:43 PM   #3
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Be safe, be responsible, practice, and think before you do...
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Old February 25, 2008, 08:12 PM   #4
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Ah but what to "practice?"

For most the abilty to recognize and deal wih a present or closing threat will suffice. That is a large order for many, and "many of the most" will never achieve it.

For many the abilty to deal with a single close contact assailant will suffice. That's a much larger order; "most of the many" will never achieve it.

For some... well, the firearms community has enough difficulty agreeing on what is necessary for the first two categories so I'll leave it at that.
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Old February 25, 2008, 09:28 PM   #5
chris in va
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Quote:
Responsible gun ownership and self protection is 99% common sense
Wish I could believe that as well, but I can't. Training has a much larger role than people believe in how to safely handle/use firearms.

Every day is a learning experiece for me. I've been given some fairly good entry-level training, and I try to expound on that as I go along.

They say, 'knowledge is power'. If you have common sense but no knowledge, it won't get you very far.
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Old February 25, 2008, 09:35 PM   #6
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Scenarios

Oddly enough, a lot of the scenarios I've seen discussed in here are similar to things that have actually happened to friends of mine, or (on a much more limited basis) to me. Some have been over the top, but many do seem to have some basis in reality.

Not sure what kind of "ninja" tactics are being referred to, but I have to strongly advocate that people who are concerned with self-defense should learn more than just how to assess a situation, or just use a gun well. You may not always have a gun, or you may have to fight to retain or use it. Some people have health issues that prevent any physical training; some don't perceive a need. Hopefully, they will never have that need.

Some of us have already had that need....
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Old February 25, 2008, 10:28 PM   #7
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Well i will take common sense any day of the shake and bake schools. One i saw was a weekend course called "Worrior Forge". Now that was funny!! Laughable to say the least. It took me 12+ weeks to become a Marine (boot) alone then Infantry school, and i still had a heck of a lot to learn before i was ready to go! Take a weekend course and be a Mall Ninja!! Rambo wannabees. That is not to say there are not good weekend courses out there! Its just names like that are a sure tip off to being a bunch of guys dressed in camo trying to act like they are going to be a bad ass when they get done for the weekend. Marines take months and they get R done in a weekend!!
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Old February 25, 2008, 10:54 PM   #8
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Train to become confident with a firearm and to become confident with other types of firearms.
Some people are just not naturals when it comes to shooting and if you are one of them realize it and get the outside help you need to put "steel on target"
Learn how to shoot a Rifle effectively. From the ground. From a tree from any improvised support. Learn to shoot free hand, IMHO the most neglected of the shooting stances. If you can shoot bulls from a bench but you aren't worth a hill of beans at shooting free hand, challenge yourself to shoot freehand and seperate yourself from the rest of the crowd.
Learn to shoot a shotgun. It can be fun so go skeet shooting, sporting clays. that type of training pays off big.
Learn to shoot a pistol like it is a natural extention of your hand and when you do switch to the other hand and start over. Go ambidextrious.
Teach your kids how to shoot. Its their God given right. You want to protect your own family. Teach them to protect theirs when they have their own. Responsibility is taught through several ways and one of them is by example.

Do understand that a pistol is just that A Pistol and nothing more.
I never felt more sorrier than I did whenever I seen military personnel with a pistol deployed. I much rather have a rifle.






Everyone is not coming after you all of the time, its not a doomsday scenario so let it pass the common sense test.
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Old February 26, 2008, 12:34 AM   #9
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Jeff Cooper used to say, "Having a gun doesn't mean you're armed any more than having a guitar means you're a musician." Training is about many things. It's about learning basic, non-intuitive skills that might come in handy in a bad situation -- like quickly and safely drawing your gun and getting hits on target, safely moving with a loaded gun, shooting on the move, shooting from unorthodox postures, etc. Training also helps foster mindset.

In a bad situation, you will probably be jacked up on adrenaline and subject to other physiological stresses. Things will be happening quickly. Because of the speed at which the event is unfolding, the adrenaline dump you've just experienced and the physiological stresses to which you will be subject, you will probably not be able to think and apply common sense. You will react, and you will react as you've trained.

I do suspect that there are a bunch of nonsense courses out there, and God deliver us from the Mall Ninjas and Gun Range Commandos. But there are some fine, professional schools out there. I've been to Gunsite twice (once for pistol and once for rifle). I've taken a class with Louis Awerbuck. I've had some other classes with well regarded professionals. These have all been good, solid experiences. I've learned things every time, and for me it was time and money well spent.
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Old February 26, 2008, 08:13 PM   #10
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Chris,
Knowledge can be aquired. Training can enhance knowledge.Common sense cannot be taught or aquired thru training.
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Old February 26, 2008, 08:22 PM   #11
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Common sense will help you know when to use your weapon,
Traning and proficiency will help you know how to use your weapon.

Common sense will not help the latter. However, training and experience will help you with the "when."

There's just no substitute.
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Old February 26, 2008, 08:24 PM   #12
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common sense acquisition

Actually, common sense can be acquired through training, but it's usually the training given by the school of hard knocks.

I think it was Sands of Iwo Jima where the Duke said: "Life is hard. It's harder if you're stupid."

Or, as Gunny Woodring used to say, "You'll either get smart or you'll get really strong...."
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Old February 26, 2008, 08:30 PM   #13
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MLeake, the actual Wayne quote is "...tough.." not hard.

Common sense can't be beaten in. It becomes experience through pain, which is the best teacher.
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Old February 26, 2008, 08:31 PM   #14
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What is common sense? Common sense, insofar as we're talking about taking appropriate action under extreme pressure, may in fact lead to the wrong conclusions. Sometimes one's instinctive reaction is not the correct response. In fact, it seems that one element of training and practice is to overcome instinctive reaction and to learn to automatically do instead what is appropriate.

For example, when driving a car, one's instinctive (common sense?) reaction in the event of a skid is to apply the brakes. We know that is the wrong thing to do; and so, if one is lucky enough to get some training in high speed driving, one learns to stay off the brake, turn into the skid and, under some circumstances, even gently apply some throttle. I remember my first time driving a Formula Ford through Turn 8 at Laguna Seca -- a left-right downhill "S" turn. When hitting the apex of the first half of the turn, you can't see the track. My "instinct" (common sense?) said to back off the throttle. But of course, backing off the throttle under side loading while going downhill is a good way to lose the back end.

I'm very leery of relying too much on so called common sense. For perhaps too many people, it's only common sense that if guns were illegal, there'd be less crime. Of course we know that there are so many reasons why this is wrong, but still to a lot of folks, it's common sense.

In my view training enhances one's knowledge and ability to make appropriate judgments. To me, that's common sense.
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Old February 26, 2008, 09:29 PM   #15
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Sorry, BreacherUp!

You are correct. My bad.

I always liked The Quiet Man better... Blasphemy, I know.
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Old February 26, 2008, 10:00 PM   #16
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Oy vey, here we go again with the common sense and the training...

Okay, first of all, in any training I have ever done (usually light hearted stuff like Canadian Forces training with a good amount of FIBUA and CQB (MOUT/CQB)) I have ALWAYS been trained in skill sets, NEVER scenarios. You only ever use scenarios to gain experience in applying your skill sets. If you train with scenarios you will find that the scenrio you trained for will likely not be anything like the one you find yourself in. Remember folks, train skills, not scenes.

There, I managed to put a bit of common sense in there, didn't I?

Now, common sense dictates that when a person is thrown into a violent conflict they will fight how they visualize and train. If you don't practice getting your defensive capabilities (threat assessed, firearm ready, target lined up, etc) up and running, you will be less effective than if you do practice. Now does that lack of practice put you in a better or worse situation? I would say.... worse. Common sense kicks in only when you are cognitive. Most times us normals are running on autopilot (that's where the training comes in y'all) and adrenaline during a conflict.

Just my opinion.
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Old February 26, 2008, 10:13 PM   #17
BreacherUp!
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Canuck,I gather what you are saying. But scenario trainng does provide more than testing skill sets.
Since you have done CQB, you know that running a hall/room/ danger areas enough times in scenarios, you begin to learn "pattern recognition." PR decreases judgement time and deployment/employment times. Done enough times with a core group, and everyone begins to recognize these patterns and react as a unit. After all, there are only so many ways to skin a cat.
In the same way, going through enough shoot/no shoot scenarios increases PR.
But, I agree that utilizing training scenarios just to learn and defeat that particular scenario, is amateurish.
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Old February 26, 2008, 11:05 PM   #18
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Common sense cant be trained. Your response can be but be trained. common sense is what will keep you out of a gunfight. It will also tell you when you MUST shoot. Training will make it so you dont think just react. The first time i was under fire i did not think i just reacted. Common sense is when you think while you are fighting to plan your next move. Hard to explain!!! Some guys were great with reacting but not so smart with sensing where the threat was before we got there.
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Old February 26, 2008, 11:30 PM   #19
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Definitions

I think it is a matter of COMMON SENSE that a firearm owner be TRAINED to make proper use of the tool/weapon. And, just what is "common sense"? Is it that which is empty of "trainng"? I think "training" has to do with properly harnessing "common sense." Why get complicating about labels?

I think if someone decides to, and is eligible to own a firearm, then s/he MUST expose himself/herself to AS MUCH training as s/he could afford.
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Old February 27, 2008, 04:31 PM   #20
David Armstrong
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Quote:
Responsible gun ownership and self protection is 99% common sense and your inate ability to know right from wrong.
Sadly, common sense is far from common, and way too many do not have (or will not follow) that inate ability to know right from wrong. Thus, the need for training. Admittedly most don't need any of the more nonsensical "warrior" training, but most could use a nice dose of realistic, focused training.

As a side note, I frequently find it to be those with the least right to use the term "warrior" that tend to toss it around the most in their training descriptions.
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Old February 27, 2008, 05:00 PM   #21
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Don't take this as a personal attack, Avenger, . . . but I think you need to go back and re think your statement:

"Responsible gun ownership and self protection is 99% common sense and your inate ability to know right from wrong."

There is a synopsis for every training class given by anyone, . . . anywhere.

There is no, . . . I repeat, . . . NO, . . . synopsis or syllabus for common sense.

Common sense for Nancy Pelosi is everyone turn in your guns, then no one will be shot.

Common sense for Ted Kennedy is that all guns should be taken from everyone who is not a senator or a Kennedy.

Common sense for Sarah Brady is that you and I should be locked up as we are seriously defective in our thinking capacities.

Common sense for Charleton Heston is "From my cold dead fingers, . . . "

What I am getting at is simple: common sense cannot be defined, . . . therefore, . . . without an agreed upon definition, . . . one cannot assess if it has been followed or not. Training records, . . . training skills, . . . even training scenarios can be graded, defined, critiqued, improved, assessed, etc.

I'm in the camp that says if we define our goals, . . . make them achievable, . . . then we won't sound like Hussein Osomma-bomma. Once defined, . . . we can strive to achieve them, . . . whether it is a two handed shooting skill, . . . knowledge of the difference from a SA, DA, DAO, type handguns, . . . or scenario reaction where you are in one line as another line is being robbed in the bank.

Think about it, . . .

May God bless,
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Old February 27, 2008, 05:08 PM   #22
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I don’t understand the question here.
You thing common sense will make you hit your target and react as you should under stress when attacked?
Or that there’s a gun school out there that will teach you what you only learn as you grow up, under the wing of good parents?
My friend, it’s training AND common sense.

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Old February 27, 2008, 06:25 PM   #23
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without common sense, all the training in the world is useless.
By the same token, common sense, with no training, is, well, not really common sense.
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Old February 27, 2008, 06:49 PM   #24
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Personally, I think most of the courses, books, awareness training, etc, only exsists to help guys justify to themselves, family, (or whoever) owning lots of guns that they honestly dont need. (And before somone flames me, realise that Rights, Needs, and Wants are three very diffrent things)

I know a gentleman who owns over 350 pistols for self defense. Chances are, he'll never use even one for its intended purpose. The training videos and weekend ninja courses he does regularly gives him an excuse bring them all out on the weekends, and to purchase more, when he'd be much better served with a small group of pistols that he praticed marksmanship with weekly.
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Old February 27, 2008, 06:57 PM   #25
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Sorry RedneckFur, but I don’t agree with you on a couple of points there.
If he says that all 350 guns are for defense, then yes, he’s not too bright.
Could it be, that he simply likes collecting them? I sure do.
Have some guns for defense, some spares, and some that I just enjoy shooting.
Second, does he dress up like a ninja or something? Because if its self defense shooting classes he’s been taking, that’s actually a pretty good idea.
And no, target shooting wont do you any good for defense, you are much better off taking the defense shooting classes instead and practicing what you learn there.

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