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Old March 31, 2008, 03:57 PM   #1
P-35HP
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The Israeli way...

It seems that the Israelis do not care about “21 feet rule” and/or about the theory mandating to “carry in condition one or you are doomed “.
All point to the "fact" that it is "imposible" to draw, rack the slide and shoot twice, fast enough to stop a surprise attack.

I am emphasizing that it only seems that this is the case, as in the article bellow there is no mention of the type of the weapon used or how exactly it has been carried.

Knowing the Israelis habits, I would suspect that it was a 9mm pistol carried in condition three with FMJ ammo. It may also very well be an UZI with FMJ ammo or an AR of some type, all carried in condition three (is it the right term for a SMG or an assault rifle?).
It seems to me that the knife attack came from a short distance, with a certain amount of surprise and that the defender has been able to pull the weapon and shoot twice stopping the attack and killing the terrorist.


"An Ofra resident, in his thirties, returned from his workplace in (the settlement of) Itamar, got off at the Shiloh hitchhikers' station, where a 16-year-old boy was standing. Shortly afterwards, they were approached by the terrorist, who began talking to them in broken English, mixed with Hebrew and Arabic. He seemed nervous, put his hand into his shirt between the buttons, pulled out a knife and shouted, 'Allah Akbar' (God is great).

"The Ofra resident pulled out his weapon, fired two bullets, and the terrorist fell on the floor. Security and medical forces were dispatched to the area and tended to the terrorist, but eventually proclaimed him dead."



It looks like the arguments for "the necessity" of caring all the time in condition one vs. condition three, the "necessity" to have “one in the pipe”, the 21 feet theory, or the "best" caliber and type of bullet are just theoretical opinions. The reality, in many cases, proves them wrong.

One has to be aware of the theories, but should not take them too seriously.

A thing is certain, if you have your weapon with you, are well trained and are willing and unafraid to fight and survive, the chances are that you will prevail.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...525910,00.html

Terror attack thwarted near West Bank settlement
Palestinian attempting to stab people standing at hitchhikers' station near Shiloh shot to death by Israeli citizen; 7.5-inch knife found on terrorist's body
Efrat Weiss
Published: 03.31.08, 17:53 / Israel News

An Israeli citizen shot dead a Palestinian man who attempted to stab people standing at a hitchhikers station near the West Bank settlement of Shiloh on Monday evening.

The Magen David Adom emergency services, there were no Israeli casualties in the incident. A 20-centimeter (7.5-inch) knife was found on the terrorist's body, in addition to the knife he used to try and stab the citizens.




An initial IDF inquiry revealed that the Palestinian ran towards the hitchhikers' station in an attempt to stab two citizens standing there. One of the civilians pulled out his personal weapon, fired at the terrorist and killed him.

A police sapper examined the terrorist's body in order to rule out the presence of explosive devices.

Senior IDF officers told Ynet that the citizens acted as expected during the incident.

"An initial investigation revealed that the terrorist arrived in order to stab civilians. A citizen, believed to be a residents of (the settlement of) Ofra, shot the terrorist and killed him. Another knife was found on the terrorist's body in addition to the one he held as he tried to stab the citizens."

'Terrorist seemed nervous'
Colonel (res.) Moti Yogev, deputy mayor of the Binyamin Regional Council, told Ynet about the chain of events.

"An Ofra resident, in his thirties, returned from his workplace in (the settlement of) Itamar, got off at the Shiloh hitchhikers' station, where a 16-year-old boy was standing. Shortly afterwards, they were approached by the terrorist, who began talking to them in broken English, mixed with Hebrew and Arabic. He seemed nervous, put his hand into his shirt between the buttons, pulled out a knife and shouted, 'Allah Akbar' (God is great).

"The Ofra resident pulled out his weapon, fired two bullets, and the terrorist fell on the floor. Security and medical forces were dispatched to the area and tended to the terrorist, but eventually proclaimed him dead."

According to Yogev, only 10 days ago two Arabs attempted to stab civilians at the same junction, but fled as an IDF patrol passed by.

MDA paramedic Ilan Klein, who arrived at the scene of the incident, told Ynet, "We received a report of gunshots in the Shiloh Junction area. When we arrived, we saw a terrorist lying near the hitchhikers' station, with several bullet holes in his body and a 20-centimter knife near his body.

"The young man who shot the terrorist said that he had approached them in a bid to stab them, with his knife pulled out. When he noticed the man, he fired at him."

The paramedic added that two people were standing at the hitchhikers' station – a 30-year-old man who shot the terrorist and a 15-year-old boy.

The security forces' alert level across the country has been raised recently as Hizbullah marked 40 days since the assassination of its top commander Imad Mugniyah in Damascus.





During a memorial held in Beirut last week, the organization's Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah said, "The Israelis are worried – let them remain that way. They must know that whoever murdered our commander will be punished."

Defense Minister Ehud Barak noted recently that Hizbullah may still carry out a terror attack to avenge Mugniyah's death. "We must be prepared and we are taking the proper measures," he said.
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Old March 31, 2008, 04:07 PM   #2
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How do you know this guy was carrying in condition 3?

He was a civilian.

And no, that would not be the correct terminology for an Uzi, they fire from an open bolt.
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Old March 31, 2008, 04:52 PM   #3
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If I an carrying an automattic pistol there will be a round in the chamber.
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Old March 31, 2008, 05:23 PM   #4
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Most of what I read indicates that the so-called "Israeli Carry" (Condition III) was in effect when they had a plethora of different weapons, and that was some time ago. I have read that since they have updated\/standardised their military, C-III is no longer used....
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Old March 31, 2008, 05:27 PM   #5
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Quote:
"The Ofra resident pulled out his weapon, fired two bullets, and the terrorist fell on the floor. Security and medical forces were dispatched to the area and tended to the terrorist, but eventually proclaimed him dead."
As B. Lahey said this does not give any information at all about the condition the weapon was in. I started an israeli carry thread a while ago and by the end, as you would expect , there were many people for and many against. My opinion is that while condition 3 can be used it does not cover the full spectrum of possible scenarios as efficently as condition 1 does ( such as fending with face smash or searching with torch with offhand ). Let's be honest, the only reason for carrying condition 3 is due to concern over losing control of your weapon which is better addressed through training and decent holsters and at the risk of upsetting some people let's remember that the israeli army is made up of people who are doing their national service and are NOT as professional as their full time counterparts in other western nations who have full time standing armies. It may well be to stop people with a few months training who are in a volotile area of the world from " shooting at shadows ". Just a theory and I could be completely wrong
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Old March 31, 2008, 05:36 PM   #6
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I carried my Colt 10mm cocked and locked always. Galco Miami Classic rig with 2 full mags. What good does the weapon do if it takes you longer than 3 seconds to get it into play? I also carried it crossdraw IWB just on my left hipbone for dress purposes. Harder to get into play, but not as noticeable with a coat on.
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Old March 31, 2008, 08:56 PM   #7
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There's nothing in any of those accounts to suggest that the weapons were carried in condition 3. In fact, there's precious little detail provided. In any event, the Israeli draw is military doctrine, and these were civilians -- not bound by military doctrine.

While the Israeli draw can be executed very quickly, it is not a quick as a draw from condition 1. In addition, you must have two hands available. I don't know about you, but I am unwilling to count on having both hands free if I need my weapon. I will only carry in condition 1.
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Old March 31, 2008, 09:24 PM   #8
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The whole point of the C-3 carry there was the number of AD's that were happening, NOT because it was desireable.

The whole point of carrying a defensive handgun is the ability to address life-threatening problems quickly, sometimes one-handed.
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Old March 31, 2008, 10:30 PM   #9
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If I had to carry condition 3, . . . I think I would seriously consider carrying an old SAA with only 5 in it, . . . and would learn to fan that thing like BillyBob Shooter Boy.

May God bless,
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Old April 1, 2008, 12:07 AM   #10
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I predict that this thread will die in an acrimonious verbal shootout within a few pages...

In as much as everyone will quote sources, research, statistics, probability, celebrity instructors, elite units, probabilities, J-frame revolver vs high capacity semi-autos, antecdotes, war stories, Israeli military prowess, astrological signs, Glock vs. Everything Else, Tueller Drills, North Hollywood Shootout, FBI Miami Shootout, Iraq, NY SOP 9, Fackler, Marshall & Sanow, SA vs. DA, ADs/NDs, lack of training, carry while in the shower, ad nauseum...

I'll simply recommend carrying an unloaded .22 LR Davis Derringer (and extensive practice of my favorite gunfighter's SOP drill for danger).



YMMV
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Old April 1, 2008, 09:05 AM   #11
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If every BG shouted 'Allah Akbar' before he did anything, you could practically defend yourself with a stick.

There is an ongoing debate here abour condition 3 vs condition 1.
This story doesn't have enough real info to prove or disprove wither way of carrying.
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Old April 1, 2008, 09:27 AM   #12
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This is nearly as dumb as the why load your magazine thread. If you want to carry your weapon with an empty chamber and the magazine half full-- or empty-- by all means do it.

Just don't try to explain that you are a Mall Ninja Instructor and your advice should be heeded by everyone else.
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Old April 1, 2008, 09:30 AM   #13
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The OPs first post to. Welcome to the forum, although i don't know what your motives for this post were. Carry condition 3 if you think its better for you. I'll always carry one.
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Old April 1, 2008, 09:52 AM   #14
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Another unchambered thread! What new things will be said?

:barf:
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Old April 1, 2008, 11:04 AM   #15
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Thank you all for your thoughts and the will to share them.
For those that find that this issue is brought up to often, thank you too for letting me know.
There is always something to learn and I really appreciate ALL the inputs.

As I have said, there is very little info. about the weapon and tactics employed, and I do not know the actual type of weapon or how it was carried.

I have few observations about what it has been posted.

First, it does not have to take “3 sec.” to execute the draw (from an IWB holster, under a T-Shirt, shirt or vest). It can be done, very successfully, in less than that. Just take a look at the clip that Defense Review has. It is a Kareen promo of a quite low quality and mostly boring, but if you can take the time and wait, there are two scenes were a guy in a vest performs the draw. Download button is at the bottom of the page
http://www.defensereview.com/modules...rticle&sid=469

Deploying a gun carried in condition three (not at Miculek speed but still at reasonable speed) can be very quick. Take a look at those clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvbv75gAfrE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xohtwS1Tm4c

The Israeli system has been taught at all levels, civilians, military, police, SF. The regular Israeli soldier does not carry a handgun. Only a few military SF are issued handguns, if at all. Police caries mostly SA Jericho 9MM in condition three. Civilians carry modern privately owned firearms like Glock, Sig, FN P35, etc. or SMG and AR if required and issued by the military.

IPSC dose endorse condition one as everywhere.

The main threat to police officers and civilians lives is from terrorist acts. Armed attacks and violent home invasions that require use of deadly force in SD are extremely rare.

Below is a link to a news clip illustrating SF training. Some scenes show the handgun drill.
It is a reserve unit composed of former regular SF ops. with at least three years of experience.
I am sorry, it is all in Hebrew but very informative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsGPI_t-wko

Condition 3 DOSE NOT covers all the needs. I agree that in a scenario were one may expect to be jumped and killed at every moment, adequate tactics and equipment should be employed.
Having only one hand available in a threatening scenario requires that the gun should be IN Hand, condition one.
The Israeli technique, as I know it, emphasis that if you think that a threat is imminent and you expect to have to deploy a gun, by all means have that gun in your hand, condition one. Drop the safety and fire if needed.

The legal and the liability aspects for civilians here in USA, are also a factor to be considered when one have to choose between condition one three. In some cases, condition one is the better option.

One more think. An UZI can be carried (NOT RECOMENDED) in condition one. Just insert the magazine, pull the cocking handle back (do not forget to push it back forward) and apply the safety. All you need to do is disengage the safety and fire.

My point is that it relay does not matter what you choose, condition one or three.
Most important is the proficiency with that weapon, safety and the will to fight and win.
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Old April 1, 2008, 11:10 AM   #16
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Why spend a great deal of training time learning to quickly draw and charge the chamber (using two hands or one) when you can learn how to operate a safety in far less time?

The Israeli technique the answer to a question I've never asked.
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Old April 1, 2008, 12:24 PM   #17
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I've heard the "condition 3 but use condition 1 if a threat is imminent" repeatedly. The thing is, how do you know if a threat is imminent in ordinary life as you go about your daily business? As a private citizen, if I know that a threat is imminent, I won't be there.

And if you're out in the world and the hairs on your neck start to stand out and you get the feeling that something bad is about to happen, what do you do with your gun carried in condition 3? Do you produce your roscoe and chamber a round -- out there in front of God and everyone? And if you're wrong, you've just attracted a lot of unfavorable attention.

Situational awareness is a very good thing, but it doesn't always work. And when it does work, it's probably best used to avoid a bad situation altogether.

The likelihood of needing your gun and the likelihood that you will need it quickly to respond to a sudden threat are independent variables. The odds of needing your gun are minuscule. But the odds that if you do need it, you will need if very quickly, are substantial. The fact that it's unlikely that you'll need your gun is not a good reason, IMHO, to carry it in less than a state of immediate readiness.

That's how I look at things and why I will carry in condition 1. If you see things differently, you're free to choose how you carry.
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Old April 1, 2008, 12:34 PM   #18
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fiddletown: good point. Another big issues with "sometimes this way, sometimes that way" is that it adds further complication to your response in extremis. Pick one way to carry (whether condition 1, 2, or 3). Then train that way and always carry that way. Train the way you fight and fight the way you train.

If you sometimes carry condition 1 and sometimes carry condition 3, then there is a good chance that you will be in one condition but think you are in the other. If you are in condition 1 but think you are in condition 3, you'll cycle the slide and drop a round on the ground. If you are in condition 3 but think you are in condition 1, then you will pull the trigger and nothing will happen -- that could have very disastrous consequences.
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Old April 1, 2008, 12:35 PM   #19
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M1911, you are right. I have asked it.

My scope in posting is to educate MYSELF on the issue.
I do not intend to convince or to preach to anybody to adopt it. I am only pointing to the FACT that the system is working well.

I am looking for educated opinions that address the issue. I am not interested in sarcasm, arrogance, etc.

Most of the posts that I have read, in other forums, concerning this issue are full uninformative statements.

It is my hope that this form member will produce relevant info. that can help me understand the subject.

BTW what is a Mall Ninja?
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Old April 1, 2008, 01:02 PM   #20
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Quote:
I am looking for educated opinions that address the issue. I am looking for educated opinions that address the issue. I am not interested in sarcasm, arrogance, etc.
Arrogance? No. A touch of sarcasm? Sure. It is the web after all

I'll let you judge whether my opinion is educated or not. I've had approximately 200 hours of training from a number of institutions, including Lethal Force Institute, Sigarms Academy, Smith & Wesson Academy, Cumberland Tactics, etc. I'm an NRA certified firearms instructor and compete regularly in IDPA. I'm an NRA and IDPA certified range safety officer.

I've been taught how to draw and reholster safely, including the proper manipulation of a 1911 safety. I've also been taught how to do one handed slide manipulations. So my opinion on this matter is based upon my first-hand experience.

It did not take long at all for myself or the other students to learn how to properly manipulate a 1911 safety during the draw, and how to reapply before reholstering. I'd say an hour tops. It was even faster for the students with Glocks who did not have a safety to manipulate. All they had to learn was proper location of their trigger finger during drawing and reholstering.

On the other hand, cycling the slide with one hand was not easy. It is not easy to do quickly and safely. Snag-free rear sights like Novaks make this more difficult. Something like Heinie's new ledge sight makes that a little easier: https://www.heinie.com/cart/product_...abd7c2e1e6f238

But even with a proper rear sight, it isn't easy to do quickly or safely. Yes, there are people who can do it quickly -- they spent a lot of time training to get there.

My point (which I made shortly and sweetly above and I'm making with far more words here), is that nothing comes for free. If you are going to use the Israeli system, you will have to spend a lot of time training in order to become competent with it. In particular, it will take a good bit of time to be able to do it quickly with one hand. You must learn how to do it with one hand because if the worst happens your other hand might be busy (fending off the perp, pushing your child to safety, etc). And you had better be good at it because I suspect cycling the slide with one hand is more difficult when wrestling with a perp than it is on a square range.

It is my experience that you can learn to operate a 1911-style safety in less time than it will take to learn to quickly cycle the slide one-handed. And you can learn to safely draw and reholster a Glock in even less time than that.

Furthermore, carrying chamber empty is slower than carrying chamber full. Yes, with a lot of training you can get faster. But your first shot will be slower starting from condition 3 than it will be from condition 1. If carrying chamber empty was faster, then Todd Jarrett and all the other pro shooters would be competing that way. They aren't. If you ever need a gun, you will need it real bad and you will need it right now. Why would you want to make it slower for your first shot?

Quote:
I am only pointing to the FACT that the system is working well.
And you make this statement based on couple anecdotes?

If you go to any major shooting school in the US (Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Blackwater, etc.), not one of them trains people condition 3. If you speak with any major police department in the US, you will find that their officers are trained to carry with the chamber full.

Carrying chamber empty has significant disadvantages and, IMHO, few if any advantages. YMMV.

I strongly urge you to train at a major shooting school.

Oh, one last thing. You asked about the Mall Ninja. Mall Ninja was the name of a famous poster on GlockTalk who perpetrated perhaps one of the best (and funniest) trolls ever: http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

Read that and you'll understand what a mall ninja is. But careful reading it at work -- you may end up laughing hysterically. Though perhaps he made the troll a bit too obvious with the special wall climbing boots bit.

Last edited by M1911; April 1, 2008 at 01:27 PM. Reason: added mall ninja reference
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Old April 1, 2008, 01:27 PM   #21
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Quote:
Carrying chamber empty has significant disadvantages and, IMHO, few if any advantages. YMMV.
The one advantage is that if you deal with 1) weapons with difficult to manipulate safeties or 2) various weapons with different operating characteristics (DA vs SA, safeties in diff. locations, etc), then keeping all weapons in Condition 3 and running them that way is expedient. That's why the Israelis went to the technique. Those situations no longer are in effect (they've standardized weapons), they have largely abandoned Condition 3 carry.
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Old April 1, 2008, 01:38 PM   #22
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And I agree with M1911. To help you decide if my opinion can be considered educated:

[1] I've trained at Gunsite, in both handgun and rifle. I've also had training with the Walt Marshall's Advanced Weapons and Tactics group and one class with Louis Awerbuck.

[2] I've competed in IPSC (Limited Division). I was a USPSA certified range officer (but let my certification lapse).

[3] I'm an NRA certified instructor in Basic Handgun, Personal Protection Inside the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home.

[4] My handgun of choice has always been the 1911. All my formal training has been with the 1911, and in all my handgun competition I've used a 1911.
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Old April 1, 2008, 01:44 PM   #23
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A average man can get to you in 1.5 sec. from 21 ft. away.
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Old April 1, 2008, 01:46 PM   #24
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P-35HP: I see from your profile that you are in NH. So head over to Sigarms Academy or Lethal Force Institute and take a class. Sigarms Academy has a cheap 4-hour introduction to concealed carry. That will teach you how to draw and reholster. Their 2-day class would be better, of course.
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Old April 1, 2008, 01:59 PM   #25
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The issue has been asked and answered 1000s of time by now.

The core is:

1. Do you fear an ND?
2. Do you fear not being able to get the gun in operation fast enough?

#1 is taken care of by training. If you fear the gun you carry due to its mechanics or your lack of training/ability, then don't carry it. Very simple.

#2 - one would have to have a very, very large data set from the real world to come up with a distribution of handgun incidents that would indicate a disadvantage for unchambered carry. But the incidents have to be broken down to their specifics. Arguing the mean or modal action in multifactor situations is stupid but typical of some gun usage arguments. The mean is NOT guaranteed to occur. This is a stupid conclusion made time and again in gun discussions. You need to plan for a reasonable range of possibilities.

Unchambered carry has risks in some reasonable scenarios that would seem to outweigh the ND risk for those who have trained well. If you haven't trained with your gun then you are a liability and shouldn't carry.

That's about all there is in thousands of posts, endless posts, over and over.

As pointed out the Israeli example is thrown up by folks with little analytic skill as a cliche to prove their point. If you want to analyze such, you need training from various research disciplines (or just common sense) to actually reach a generalization from their experience.
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