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Old February 26, 2008, 06:08 PM   #26
JBB
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My company has a no gun rule, also, but when I finally get my CCW license (should be any day now) I intend to carry to and from work. I believe that if the need ever arose for me to use my firearm in self defense, the repercussions from my employer would be secondary to my own well being. All that being said, and the likelihood of defending myself with lethal force being pretty remote, I feel that as long as I am discreet and quiet about my habits none will be the wiser and I will have the comfort of knowing that I have the means for self defense.
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Old February 27, 2008, 12:51 AM   #27
Inspector3711
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I see your point JBB. Some would beleive your choice is unethical. We are all entitled to our point of view. I think it's your choice and you have accepted the risk. I also think it is wrong (unethical) for a corporation to tell me what I can have in my own vehicle. I think it's a sign that corporations may have a little too much power in this country.

For me, after 23 years with the same company and no college degree, I think too much is at stake. With my luck.... October: Diagnosed with TY2 Diabetes 20 years too soon.. November: Night before Thanksgiving diagnosed with Diverticulitis no turkey in the hospital for Thanksgiving just jello and water, 20 years too soon (Dad has diabetes, Mom has Diverticulitis, both can be hereditary) January: Lost control for 1-2 seconds on a sudden patch of ice and struck a light pole. Totaled my pickup truck (1st new car I ever bought and it was paid off), now I drive a Neon! I think I'll be cautious about making sure I still have a job.
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Old February 28, 2008, 05:20 PM   #28
Boris Bush
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David Armstrong

In post 20 you said the company agrees to pay X amount and only pays Y amount. Well in todays world OT is a NO NO! I can not tell you how many time I saw a manager go into the computer and turn 47 hours into 40.00 so they wouldn't lose a bonus for keeping labor cost down. Even more surprising was how many did NOTHING about it when they got their money stolen from them. That is why I kept a paper record of my time and confronted them every week they did it to me.

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Sometimes honor goes beyond law
I couldn't have said it better myself!!! I have to honor my wife and my kids, If I use lethal force to save my life while breaking rule that is inane, then so be it. At the worst I lose a job, not my LIFE. I can live without a job, and so can my family, and the news would have a good time with that story. I cann't support my family if I am dead, and that no matter what the opinion of anyone person or any law, is the important fact at hand....
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Old February 28, 2008, 09:34 PM   #29
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I run a business and don't allow gun carry on person or gun storage on property. The liability is too great.
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Old February 28, 2008, 10:14 PM   #30
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we have a .45 hole through one of the doors and regularly find slugs in the parking lot!
Not to be argumentative, but...

How do you know it is a .45 hole through one of the doors, and not a .44, .41, .40, or even a .410 slug hole?

Do you really find slugs in the parking lot? Or do you mean you find empty cartridges (or casings)? Slugs would be the actual bullets laying on the ground (rather than in a wall or car or body). I've been in nasty areas and never seen slugs laying on the ground.

Now to your question. I agree with most other people here, in that if the gun is concealed inside your car, and you don't tell your coworkers about it, no one will know. You are not breaking a law (at least in my state) by disobeying your employer, but typically employers are able to fire if you violate a company policy. If you got fired over it, and had a good lawyer, there's a decent chance in a wrongful termination case, depending on whether you could get the inside of your car to be classified as private property. This is much the same as companies who say you cannot smoke on their property, but you can still do it inside your car.

IANAL, so feel free to ignore me!
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Old February 28, 2008, 11:44 PM   #31
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Hehe... I've grown up around firearms.. I'm from a small timber industry town in Oregon where I could shoot pretty freely.
When I say a slug in the parking lot I'm speaking of copper jacketed pieces of lead, some of which matched the 9mm profile. When I say .45 caliber hole in the door I'm talking about a .458" diameter slug that was pried out of a window casing at the other end of the room. And yes, we measured it (Hence the name Inspector3711, I inspect and measure aircraft parts. I work for the company on one hand and for the FAA on the other). We've had three gun battles in the parking lot during work in the last ten years. One of them happened when a Vietnam vet was working in an out building. He split his chin on the concrete he hit the deck so hard. I witness another one as two guys shot at each other from behind cars in the lot while an employee in the lot was sneaking a smoke during work time. He stood there in shock. Didn't think of being in danger until they both ran off whenthey heard the cops. they each shot two or three rounds and didn't hit each other or a car! A reminder that an automatic pistol with open sites ain't real accurate at 150 feet.
A man was found stabbed to death in the front parking lot one morning. Our maintenance guy came in early one day and found that four guys had broken into the shop. One pulled a knife so he drove them where they wanted to go (from Seattle to Tacoma). They were arrested down the street from where he dropped them thanks to a cell call to 911.
The slugs are usually found on Monday mornings after a weekend at the OK Corral. As I said, the concrete on the side of the building has some pockmarks/chips. We also have people sweep up syringes and condoms from the lot monthly. Oh, as you can imagine we frequently have numerous piles of glass in the lot. The majority have labels that contain the words "Old" and "English".
I've been to Buena Park, Compton, and Oakland on the west coast. I traveled through The Bronx and Harlem every day for 10 days on a business trip and spent some time on the lower east side and I've been to South Boston. I know what a bad neighborhood is.
The neighborhood I work in is in Seattle believe it or not. Things have been changing for the better in recent years, but now with a new gang uprising.......
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Old February 28, 2008, 11:55 PM   #32
computerguysd
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allenomics - "I run a business and don't allow gun carry on person or gun storage on property. The liability is too great."

I'm curious as to what your liability would be if you had licensed carry employees shot dead because they followed your policy and a gunman shot them to death or otherwise injured them on your property.

I think there is a valid liability question raised that when a company disarms otherwise lawfully abiding citizens (particularly those that are licensed by the state to carry firearms) it then assumes the responsibility for their safety. If the company policy can be shown to be either directly, or indirectly, responsible for their being unarmed and unable to defend themselves, then it's reasonable to assume a judge or jury can find the company liable for any deaths or injuries that occur because of those policies.

I know I'd certainly be be inclined to find them guilty. When a company creates a policy that disarms legally (authorized) armed citizens from protecting themselves, I don't see how it could sucessfully argue that it didn't, in effect, assume the liability for their protection and safety.
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Last edited by computerguysd; February 28, 2008 at 11:59 PM. Reason: grammer
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Old February 29, 2008, 12:38 AM   #33
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Computerguysd... I hear ya loud and clear. I'm sure my company is worried about liability (crazy employee with gun) as well. They haven't thought it through though. The brief period (as you can read above) that we had security 10 years ago or more, they were unarmed as well. What would have happened if a neighborhood riot or firefight found it's way into the facility? This is not a new problem. It's been a tough place since I started there in the mid eighties. Not even a alarm system until the mid nineties. We use canned boat horns if there is a fire to this day
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"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." George Orwell
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Old February 29, 2008, 03:01 AM   #34
ghalleen
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I can understand why an employer would have this policy (not that I agree with it).

I think many employers are scared that someday, some employee will go nuts, pull a gun and shoot someone else. They fear that the courts will rule that they were negligent in allowing handguns at work, and bankrupt them with a huge judgement. Now, in my opinion, this is ridiculous, because a policy is not going to prevent a crazy guy from bringing a gun, just like a law saying that no one can own a gun in NYC prevents criminals from carrying them.

Another reason, though, is a different liability. This is where a customer is offended when he/she sees a handgun on an employee and is likely to take their business elsewhere. This is a very legitimate concern, and not one I can argue with. For example, the company I work for routinely takes orders from customers in the millions of dollars. We don't want ANYONE to be offended by anything that might disrupt an order.
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Old February 29, 2008, 05:02 PM   #35
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ghallen,

My point is that in this neighborhood there is a much greater chance of violence ocuuring because of an outsider rather than an employee. We are protecing ourselves from employees but not the criminals. I would agree more if this were a safer area.
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"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." George Orwell
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Old February 29, 2008, 11:42 PM   #36
David Armstrong
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In post 20 you said the company agrees to pay X amount and only pays Y amount.
Actually what I said is, "One can only wonder how you would feel if the company were to have the same philosophy. "Yeah, I know we agreed to pay you $25/hr with full benefits, but we decided the agreement isn't to our liking, so we are giving you $8/hr for this last week. Oh, BTW, we also decided not to give you any benefits." I'd imagine you'd be fairly upset (and rightly so) that the company didn't live up to its side of the agreement."
Quote:
I can live without a job,....
OK, then, don't take the job and then behave dishonestly and/or dishonorably about it. That is my only point. It is unethical and dishonest to agree to follow rules in order to get money and then knowingly and willingly violate those rules you have agreed to follow.
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Old February 29, 2008, 11:47 PM   #37
David Armstrong
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I'm curious as to what your liability would be if you had licensed carry employees shot dead because they followed your policy and a gunman shot them to death or otherwise injured them on your property.
There would be none. There is/was a pretty good thread on this in the Legal forum, where the variousl doctrines were gone over at length. Might try a search and see what comes up.
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Old March 1, 2008, 01:17 AM   #38
Boris Bush
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I would willingly violate any "rule"that willingly violates my RIGHT to pursue LIFE liberty and happiness.

Why someone would follow an inane rule that isn't legaly binding is beyond me.

Sometimes we need to get over the little things and just live life the way we want to. I never fretted violating the rule and so didn't alot of other employees.

If someone wants to lay down and be told how to live, then less power to them, for those that go about life as they want to, then more power to them.
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Old March 1, 2008, 06:44 PM   #39
David Armstrong
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Why someone would follow an inane rule that isn't legaly binding is beyond me.
First, in a number of areas, it is legally binding. Second, one would follow it because they have agreed to do so, and their word means something to them.
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Sometimes we need to get over the little things and just live life the way we want to.
Agreed, but that should not include deceiving others and being dishonest. You can live yourlife any way you want. But if you agree to work for me, you agree to follow my rules. You agree to come in at a certain time, work a certain amount, meet certain standards. If you don't want to do that, fine, but then you shouldn't take the paycheck either.
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If someone wants to lay down and be told how to live, then less power to them, for those that go about life as they want to, then more power to them.
And thus anarchy rules, and there is no law, no honesty, no honor. Not a way I think most want to live. I've dealt with folks who had no honor and I've dealt with folks whose handshake was as good as a written contract. I know which ones I prefer to be around. Just out of curiosity, what other rules do you think it is OK to cheat on if you want to, and do you think the employer should be able to do the same??
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Old March 1, 2008, 08:53 PM   #40
allenomics
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I know I'd certainly be be inclined to find them guilty.
computerguysd. I think a jury would find the killer guilty and my policy reasonable and prudent, considering the type of company I operate.

computerguysd, can you understand all sides of the argument, and still be pro 2A? I can.
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Old March 1, 2008, 09:49 PM   #41
Boris Bush
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I always chuckle a little when I read your replies. The two states I have lived in these rules are indeed not legaly binding. As for giving my word, I think I covered it already that I first give my word to my wife and family to be there for them and provide for them, I sure as hell aint going to let them down. I never decieved anyone, they knew I did it as well as several others. Guess what, they couldn't do anything about it either. Your last paragraph is just down right funny.

I am not inclined to go to the local stop and rob and take what I want cuz thats how I want to live. I live within the law, always have and always will. I will however refuse to follow a rule that has no legal presidence. You could say I gave my word to my wife and kids, and plan on honoring my word 'till death. I do believe the vow went something like that.

Last edited by Boris Bush; March 1, 2008 at 11:16 PM.
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Old March 2, 2008, 12:30 AM   #42
Inspector3711
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Boris

I think there is definite merit in what you write. After all, are we working to live or living to work? I quit living to work when I realized that the people at the top, the "winners" certainly don't live to work (at least not if they're really good). That was long ago. Did I marry my company or my wife? In the end who matters most?
Why is it that I owe my company so much when I have given so much? Their mentality always seems to be that I owe them for the living they give me. In reality I pay them above and beyond with my work ethic, my skill and experience, and my dedication. Certainly you can argue that they gave me the experience, but so many had the same chance and failed or quit. I did something with it. I don't owe anyone. I help make what they have a success and in fact I do it on my own and they know they can trust me to because I always have. After all of this they try to tell me what to do in my own vehicle. I should put their name on the title and they can make half the payment.
But still... Is it worth the risk???
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"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." George Orwell
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Old March 2, 2008, 12:59 AM   #43
Boris Bush
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Inspector3711

I also asked myself that question, and the answer was no it is not worth the risk. That is why I kept it in the car. Now if you ment worth the risk of breaking a stupid rule, I never once hesitated in doing what is right for myself and my family.
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Old March 2, 2008, 02:41 AM   #44
ghalleen
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My point is that in this neighborhood there is a much greater chance of violence ocuuring because of an outsider rather than an employee. We are protecing ourselves from employees but not the criminals. I would agree more if this were a safer area.
And I'm not arguing that point. Simply saying what some employers think.
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Old March 2, 2008, 09:54 PM   #45
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David's loyalty is admirable, but it was Jabotinsky who hit the nail on the head with re: to the nature of corporations and the way they treat employees in the name of company interests.

I can be "loyal" to my company by giving them a days work for a days pay. I can be loyal to my boss because he/she's fair and treats me with respect. When corporate disloyalty conflicts with my bosses loyalty I tend to side with my boss.

Loyalty is something the company earns by treating employees with respect. Not by forcing them into policies to their detriment for the benefit of the corporate interests--specifically liability.

I was "loyal" and "honorable" enough not to carry on the job in violation of company policy, but being disarmed and unable to defend myself after work as I engaged in my personal persuits was out of the question. So was parking off company property. Therefore, my weapon stayed in my vehicle until I could arm my person before I left the yard.
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Old March 4, 2008, 07:39 PM   #46
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The two states I have lived in these rules are indeed not legaly binding.
And in other states they are.
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As for giving my word, I think I covered it already that I first give my word to my wife and family to be there for them and provide for them, I sure as hell aint going to let them down.
Nobody has said that you should.
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I will however refuse to follow a rule that has no legal presidence.
Thta's fine. Again, nobody has said that you should. However, legal or not, if you agree to follow an employers rules in order to be employed, and you then choose not to follow the rule, that is dishonest and unethical. That is my only point.
Quote:
...and plan on honoring my word 'till death...
One's word is either good all the time or it isn't good any of the time. Sorry, but you have shown us where you stand.
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Old March 4, 2008, 07:55 PM   #47
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I stand on the side of the law. I didn't carry at work because the law said I couldn't, but it didn't stop me from legaly keeping it in the car. Alot of us did it, and they knew it.

Ya see my word was good. I told them I did it and they knew it. Some of the managers got poopy about it, but were legaly hand tied.
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Old March 4, 2008, 09:26 PM   #48
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I've seen those "No firearms or knives on the premises" signs. I find them disturbing. I'm sure the "crazy" abide by them too.

But what's to happen when the extreme does happen? Will they make sure my kids and wife are taken care of? Will they make sure my mom gets the big flag.

When that "crazy gunman" comes in and starts shooting up the place, the last thing on my mind will be my job or location. The first thing on my mind will be my backdrop and 3 dots lined up with mass in center.

Some people might say "yea but its so extreme, it'll never happen."

OKC, 911, Texas Mall, Virginia School Shootings, every other 7-11 etc. etc.

In my short life I've seen two barrels of a gun pointed at me, and that's two too many.

I've carried for 13 years, and the only ones that know about it are the one's that need to know.

What happens when a gunman shoots up a business and kills people? Does the business get sued for not making the place safe? Doesn't their insurance company payout anyways?
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Old March 4, 2008, 09:26 PM   #49
Inspector3711
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Boris,

I could legally get away with that too I'm sure. But if they or the police had a legal reason to get in my car (if I say I have a pistol they don't have a legal right, it would have to be something else that allowed access) I would definitely be terminated. This is a very large 300 year old european corporation. My experience is that when they set policy they stick with it. Our receiving personnel can't even use a box knife anymore, termination is immediate if caught. They use cutters with automatic retracting blades.
Nothing would happen if they knew about a firearm until the day the police needed to pull a slug from my car for evidence in a neighborhood shooting, or if my car was broken into. Or maybe a natural disaster or fire.
The moment that occured and they could physically prove that it was there I would be canned.
It may well be worth the risk depending on who you ask. Rule#1 according to HR: don't give the company any info they haven't asked for and tell nobody of your intent to conceal a weapon in your vehicle, not even your friends.
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Old March 4, 2008, 10:43 PM   #50
Boris Bush
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Inspector3711

PM me and let me know where you work so I for sure will never do business with them. I also know where you are coming from, but as I see it, it would be trivial if I did lose my job. Once you leave the parkinglot you are weapons free, If for some reason you did use it on company property and got fired, the news would have a hay day with that story and the 7.5% of WA residents (thats almost one in ten!!!) that carries would not want anything to do with them, and you would get a good lawyer from all the publicity and win a wrongful termination lawsuit for the simple fact they violated your civil rights.

As it stands I plan on not doing business with this company because I live not too far from you. So please let me know, my money will go elsewhere.......
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