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Old February 24, 2008, 02:04 AM   #1
Inspector3711
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My right to carry?

Thinking about applying for a permit so I can carry a pistol. Main reason would be because I work in the worst neighborhood in the city I live in. we have a .45 hole through one of the doors and regularly find slugs in the parking lot!
My employer has a rule in the handbook that states that if I have a firearm in my vehicle parked on company property and they find out I will be terminated. I could take the chance or park on the street where cars get broken into regularly.
On one hand this rule smacks of invasion of privacy but on the other it is on their property... By the way, I work for what used to be a medium sized american corporation but has become a mega corporation based in europe in a country that is less than firearm friendly. This rule was not in place until the company changed hands. Ha! Ironically the country in question has had a strong anti Iraq war stance but we are a defense contractor!

What would you do?
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Old February 24, 2008, 09:53 AM   #2
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How will they find out? I worked for a similar company for about three years -- no guns on your person or in your car -- and kept a revolver in my glovebox every day. Do they also say you have to let them search your car? jeez, what's this country coming to?
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Old February 24, 2008, 10:18 AM   #3
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Old February 24, 2008, 10:48 AM   #4
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What would you do?
Cost/benefit analysis. Your factors are ones that only you can really analyze, but some questions you might ask yourself are: who else is relying on your paycheck? how easily can you get another job? how likely is it that your employers will search your vehicle or spot you carrying in the office? is violating workplace policy breaking the law, or simply grounds for termination? how bad is the local neighborhood? how often do you go straight home from work versus running errands into the evening? etc etc You can't really predict whether there will ever be a break-in by a violent, armed, angry ex-employee, but you might give some thought to what you would do if there were, picturing the scene twice, once as if you were armed and once as if you were not. Remember of course that your greatest weapon is the one between your ears.

In the end, you'll make whatever decision you think is right, and then you'll have to live with the consequences of that decision, whatever those consequences are.

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Old February 24, 2008, 12:18 PM   #5
Inspector3711
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The only way they would find out is if I had to use it on the premises or on the way home and it made the news. Or if there were a natural or industrial disaster that caused my vehicle to be inspected. It's a pretty bad neighborhood. As far as looking elsewhere for employment goes, I have 23 years in and good pay/security. I'll make my own decision. The post was put up more to see what other people would decide.
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Old February 24, 2008, 02:26 PM   #6
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If possible, park off site. They have no business telling you what you can do offsite.

Get a Car Gun Safe. There are many models, but I use a Gun Vault Deluxe, with a cable securing it. There are smaller and cheaper devices that will do the job just as well. This way if someone breaks into your car, you will not be arming them... or at least they will have to work for it.
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Old February 24, 2008, 03:35 PM   #7
chris in va
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I see it this way, after working for a VERY large corporation for 7 months.

If you wish to be employed there, you must follow their policies. Some constitutional rights get taken away once you step foot on their premises, depending on their rules.

That being said, I left my gun in the vehicle before going to work. I wasn't about to be unarmed going to/from work and any errands I had to do. Rules said no firearms/weapons on their PROPERTY which included the parking lot.

On a side note, I found it very entertaining this sign posted on one of the back doors. We had big freight roll-up doors that were left wide open all hours, and on one of the 'secure' access pedestrian points was a picture of a guy holding an AK with the caption, "Keep these doors closed, we don't want this in our facility!" Wish I had a picture of that.
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Old February 24, 2008, 06:00 PM   #8
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Yeah, get a gun safe for your car.

Explain to them why you want it and why you need it and explain to them that it will be safe. If not then dont bother...

Sometimes you have to ask...

Is this worth my career...?
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Old February 24, 2008, 06:07 PM   #9
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The simple fact is that you have absolute freedom to work for any employer you choose (presuming they wish to hire you), or you can work for yourself. If you choose to work for someone else, you have to live with the employer's policies during the hours you are being paid, and while you are on the employer's property. If you don't like those policies, you need to make a career decision, not craft some backdoor way of getting around the rules.
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Old February 24, 2008, 10:49 PM   #10
Inspector3711
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I wasn't trying to get around any rules. I'm just not certain that I agree that it's their business what's in my vehicle if I'm doing my job and causing no problems. If they are worried about an employee losing it and coming back in with a gun, they should be more worried about the shootings around the neighborhood that we're in. I've accepted the risk of working in the hood for 23 years. I used to carry a 1" pipe under my seat and once a guy tried to get in at a red light yelling profanities at me. I smashed my dash with the pipe and he ran. I was younger, more physical, and alot wilder then. Now there is a new gang war brewing. There have been 4-5 shootings in the last month. Age and experience have made me more cautious about my safety. Of course I know my opinion about their rules doesn't matter. I know there are several people that have weapons in their cars and they accept the risk. I'm probably not ready to risk it. We'll be moving in two years, I just hope it's in a better neighborhood.
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"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." George Orwell
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Old February 24, 2008, 10:56 PM   #11
KMO
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I have no idea what sort of business you work for, but can't you just sit down with your manager and explain your situation? Asking for permission to have a weapon locked in your car is very different from asking to carry on the premises. Will they listen to reason? That seems a better approach than doing as some of your co-workers are doing.
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Old February 24, 2008, 11:28 PM   #12
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How would a handgun hidden in you car help if you get mugged on you way to your car? Im not being a smarta**. Im just asking, because idk.
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Old February 24, 2008, 11:49 PM   #13
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I've been retired for a few years, but for 6 years I went to my car in the company pkg. lot, put on my holster and mag. pouch and armed myself before leaving the yard after work.

My company had a strict policy against weapons. Couldn't bring so much as a pocket knife to work before driving off to work in my phone truck stocked with hammers, axes, heavy ground rods, screwdrivers, sheath knives, scissors, etc.

The company's interest was their liability. Not my safety.

A subject often came up amonst us ccw folks. Can the company search our car if it's on company property? If so, can they search a locked container in our vehicle such as a safe, brief case, tool box, etc. I've heard discussions on various boards, but no difinitive answers.
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Old February 25, 2008, 12:30 AM   #14
Boris Bush
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Nnobby45

The 4th amendment protects YOU from illegal search ans siezure. No company rule or policy is above the 4th written law in this countries history. I do not care what the owner of the company or a manager says. A police officer could request to search your personal belongings and if you say no, he cann't ( I know under certain conditions he can, like you broke a law or something else extreme). As long as you keep it clean, follow the law, it does not matter.

I used to work for Lowes and they have the same policy, and many kept their guns in the car, and no one person could do anything about it. If you check the fine print, the policy will state that the individuals personal belongings can not be searched. they can open the locker, and get company owned property, but can not open your lunchbox or any thing that belongs to you.

How do I know, I challenged them, showed them the wording of their own policy and a copy of the law and a copy of the bill of rights. After that it was all good and we all went about our business. They also have a policy that customers can not carry in their stores, but will not post the sign in the window at the majority of the stores. I still shop their, great place to get home stuff, and yes I do carry while I shop there...
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Old February 25, 2008, 12:36 AM   #15
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The company's interest was their liability. Not my safety.
bingo

Personally I would do what I thought necessary.
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Old February 25, 2008, 02:15 AM   #16
ActivShootr
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Move out of the ghetto ASAP. I know this is easier said than done but if you are concerned for your saftey and your employer is obviously not, find a job somewhere else. You stated that you had 23 years of experience. I would be willing to bet that there is someone out there that is looking for someone with your qualifications.

If you don't want to move, you can either break company policy or go unarmed. It is that simple. If the policy states "no firearms" then they will probably not make one exception just for you. I work for a company that has a similar policy. The area in which I work does not have a high crime rate but if it did , I would look for another place of employment.

If you do not want to move and insist on carring to work, buy a lock box for your vehicle and keep quiet about it.
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Old February 25, 2008, 11:34 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Boris Bush
The 4th amendment protects YOU from illegal search ans siezure. No company rule or policy is above the 4th written law in this countries history.
The Bill of Rights was developed to restrict government, not private parties. For example, if you tell your boss exactly what you think of him, of his ancestry and graphically detail his unsavory personal habits, you will not be able to claim First Amendment free speech protections to prevent your termination from the company.

To return to the subject of vehicle searches: Most states will allow companies to request your permission to search your vehicle and many company policies are so worded. You can, of course, refuse to grant such permission but the company may have the right to terminate your employment. I have heard of a couple of instances where, as part of the hiring process, a new employee is required to sign a permission form granting the company permission to search a vehicle at will.
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Old February 25, 2008, 11:56 AM   #18
David Armstrong
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What would you do?
A lot of that depends on how honest and ethical you are. Basically, the company will probably never find out if you are violating the rule. BUT-- you have an agreement with them. They will give you money and you will follow the rules. Do you think it would be OK if they were to not hold up their end of the bargain? IMO, you take their money you should be honest and follow their rules.
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Old February 25, 2008, 12:55 PM   #19
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Don't want to be an irresponsible poster or seem well, unethical, but to be candid, I'd break that rule in about two seconds.
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Old February 25, 2008, 01:15 PM   #20
David Armstrong
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Sadly, you are not alone. One can only wonder how you would feel if the company were to have the same philosophy. "Yeah, I know we agreed to pay you $25/hr with full benefits, but we decided the agreement isn't to our liking, so we are giving you $8/hr for this last week. Oh, BTW, we also decided not to give you any benefits." I'd imagine you'd be fairly upset (and rightly so) that the company didn't live up to its side of the agreement.
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Old February 25, 2008, 02:05 PM   #21
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I hear you, David. My experience though is that you may be the most dedicated, loyal, effective employee in the corporation, and if there is an officer over your head that needs to be protected from inquiry, or a higher-up's personal friend that needs a job, or they can find somebody cheaper and younger than you, they will do so not by offering to throw a farewell party, but by sending two security guards to your desk unannounced to escort you and your cardboard box of belongings out of the building. The historic covenant between workers and companies has been broken, we are all freelance in effect, and we owe corporations we work for nothing but an honest day's work. I've worked in corporations most of my adult life, and they can write in some litigation/risk management rule about the ability to inspect my car w/o my permission, but I'm not gonna take it seriously. The fact is they're only going in your car if you've already done something wrong. And if they want my urine, or they want DNA samples, or they're not happy because I don't like golf, or won't stop relaying consumer complaints up the chain, I'll move on. These days, if you're a troubled teen and get caught with a nickel bag of weed you can't get scholarships or student aid for life; if you're Halliburton and steal billions from our soldiers and taxes, you get a small fine and don't even lose the government contract. Unfortunately for me, in this economy I haven't been able to make enough for my kids not doing corporate work, but I dream of the day I'm back out of it. Corporate America is a morass of the ignorant and greedy, their rules mean nothing, a man's gotta look up at the stars and into his heart to know what's right.

PS I don't get to keep mine in the car anyway, I cross the border into Jersey and those troopers are not to be messed with, I would be posting in from Rahway State on the prison library computer during my off hours as Bubba's maid, I'm too pretty to do hard time!
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Old February 25, 2008, 02:32 PM   #22
Boris Bush
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DA

Thats all well in little letters on that screen infront of you. Death is final. I never got fired and never had any problems after I refused their strong hand tactics. There are alot of EO issues also and if you know your rights and know the law, even if you signed that paper it is not legaly binding.

I was protected by law for retaliation for refusal to be forcefuly searched. I pushed the issue and they were told they would have to call the police and have me arrested for stealing (to get a search warrant), if they were wrong (and they were) then they were open to huge lawsuits that would have been a guaranteed butt load of money for me. Infact a manager was transfered against his will for messin' with me afterwards.

If you know the laws, they are powerfull tools that can and will protect your civil rights, and no company wants to be known as a civil rights violator.

I quit that job along time ago and now I travel the world and meet interesting people. Way more fun....
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Old February 25, 2008, 04:21 PM   #23
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I will be retiring April 1st after 30 yr 3 mo at the same place, and it has been a fairly good company to work for.

Several years ago, a nut job blonde (who I heard personally say she was tired of shooting paper, . . . she wanted to know what it was like to shoot a person) brought her personal .357 into the plant to show to her supervisor.

The supervisor happened to be the son of one of the higher ups, . . . so when the stuff hit the fan over bringing a firearm onto the premises, . . . the new rule hit the boards "No guns at all on company property, at any time, period".

A year or so after that, . . . lo and behold, . . . the company is sponsoring a trap shooting league team. Go figure!!!! Several folks on any given day had their shotty and ammo in the trunk just waiting for the last whistle.

Now, . . . you can have it so long as it is unloaded, . . . in your locked personal vehicle.

Said all that to say: "Check the latest info from the company, . . . maybe something has changed, . . . for your betterment".

May God bless,
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Old February 25, 2008, 04:37 PM   #24
David Armstrong
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The historic covenant between workers and companies has been broken, we are all freelance in effect, and we owe corporations we work for nothing but an honest day's work.
No disagreement. I happen to think the "honest day's work" includes being honest.

Quote:
Thats all well in little letters on that screen infront of you.
We disagree, Boris. My honor and ethics are far more than little letters, and my word means something important to me. When I agree to take a job I take the job. When I can't follow the rules of the job, I go somewhere else. Sometimes honor goes beyond law.
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Old February 25, 2008, 08:41 PM   #25
Inspector3711
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Mugged in the lot

I'm not all that worried as I get off at the same time as about 20 other people. I'm getting older but I'm still 6'02" 220 and most people would think twice. If they are armed I'll let them have my wallet. I'm more concerned about the 20 minutes in a 30mph zone that it takes to get out of the neighborhood.

Then there is the fact that when I took a job there was no such rule and that the rule is flowed down from Europe where freedom is perhaps less free. I did sign an acknowledgement that I was informed and understood the rule. I signed that during a peaceful period that lasted for several years. Also during that time there wasn't any terrorist crap going on. In recent memory there were three convenience stores shut down for wiring money to Mr. Laden and Co.. There is a small section of neighborhood that's now referred to by some as "little Somalia" and often you get dirty looks from these folks. Really torques me off that they move here and act that way. I had some in the Walmart near work eyeballing me and whispering one day and I had had enough. I explained to them that I may be the only US citizen in the store, but I was there the day the store opened. I yelled "This is MY G-D Walmart!". They all scampered off. I'm not racist by any means, but I was brought up to respect others and I expect the same (especially since I was here paying taxes first).

In any case, I will still honor the rule I'm just making the statement that I disagree with it. On days when I carry or am on the way to the range after work I'll park in the street which unfortunately opens my car up to the thieves. About 6 years ago we were heavily staffed and some had to park out there. Six cars got broken into one day. Another time someone took a friends 300ZX dashboard (yes, that's right they broke in and took the screws out) from inside the parking lot but those occasions in the lot have been rare. Numerous car thefts have occurred too. I used to be on the now defunct suggestion committee and proposed cameras or fake cameras in the lot. The idea was shot down by upper management. They park in a different lot that the front office looks out on.

Haha I just remembered back in the late eighties when crack was hitting hard the company hired a well known security firm to man the lot. A woman was mugged on the loading dock. The guy ran past the security guard (big beefy dude, made me look small) who let him pass despite our yelling and his obvious size advantage. A group of us jogged over and asked him why he let the guy go.... He told us that they didn't pay him enough to risk getting hurt. They wouldn't let him carry a weapon so he decided on his first day that he would not be aggresive in any situation that could cause him harm.

There was no rule about us having weapons in our cars back then, but they hired unarmed security in a neghborhood bristling with AK's and Uzi's. We had a dozen chips in new paint in that side of the building back then from gunfire. Every week or two someone would find a spent slug and bring it in. Ahhh the good old days.
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