The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > The Smithy

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 24, 2011, 09:01 PM   #26
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,302
Quote:
If you want to delude yourself that dry rust is somehow less abrasive than rust suspended in oil, go ahead.
The point is that they're both about the same in terms of abrasiveness. The difference is that the oil keeps the rust in place unless you make a concerted effort to flush the surface and the steel wool clean while if it's done without oil, the rust falls away and is easily dusted off rather than rubbed around on the surface.
Quote:
I once tried to see if I could damage bluing on a scrap barrel by rubbing it with 0000 and oil. And, yes, it was rusty. I finally managed to get the bluing to fade slightly - after 10 minutes of white knuckle rubbing.
That's pretty impressive and I can see how that would strengthen your opinion of the technique. I never had that much luck using oil. If I wasn't very careful it was pretty easy to get the finish to fade with even careful rubbing.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 09:32 PM   #27
RaySendero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2010
Location: US South
Posts: 309
Removing rust on blued surfaces

[Guys, I've had the best luck getting the rust off w/o scratching the bluing using 0000 steel wool and...

Hoppes #9 !!!
RaySendero is offline  
Old August 25, 2011, 07:08 AM   #28
natman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2008
Posts: 1,419
Quote:
Quote:
If you want to delude yourself that dry rust is somehow less abrasive than rust suspended in oil, go ahead.
The point is that they're both about the same in terms of abrasiveness. The difference is that the oil keeps the rust in place unless you make a concerted effort to flush the surface and the steel wool clean while if it's done without oil, the rust falls away and is easily dusted off rather than rubbed around on the surface.
I disagree with both points - that oiled rust is as abrasive as dry rust and that dry rust magically vanishes.

Quote:
Quote:
I once tried to see if I could damage bluing on a scrap barrel by rubbing it with 0000 and oil. And, yes, it was rusty. I finally managed to get the bluing to fade slightly - after 10 minutes of white knuckle rubbing.
That's pretty impressive and I can see how that would strengthen your opinion of the technique. I never had that much luck using oil. If I wasn't very careful it was pretty easy to get the finish to fade with even careful rubbing.
What's impressed me more is the hundreds - literally hundreds - of guns I've removed rust from with 0000 steel wool and oil without damaging the bluing on a single one. Back in the 80's when you could still get a long gun cash and carry in California, I would buy a cheap beater almost every weekend and fix it up during the week. Since then I've worked for years in a gunshop and you wouldn't believe how rusty some of the gems people put on consignment are. I've removed enough rust off guns to build a small Fiat without once damaging the bluing on any of them.

So given that I disagree with the facts of your premise and since it runs counter to 25+ years of first hand experience, I hope you can appreciate my skepticism.

Peace.
natman is offline  
Old August 25, 2011, 07:34 AM   #29
Shane Tuttle
Staff
 
Join Date: November 28, 2005
Location: Blue Grass, IA
Posts: 8,553
Quote:
So given that I disagree with the facts of your premise and since it runs counter to 25+ years of first hand experience, I hope you can appreciate my skepticism.
Skepticism? Yes. Your delivery? ....

All John was saying is his viewpoint and his own experience. Chest thumping about your experience and dismissing his isn't exactly the way to provide your viewpoint here. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Reminds me when I used to work at a car dealership. Two detailers thought each others' methods were completely ass-backwards and wrong. Yet both produced desireable results in the grand scheme of it all....
__________________
If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language.

Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting
Shane Tuttle is offline  
Old August 25, 2011, 02:18 PM   #30
natman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2008
Posts: 1,419
Quote:
All John was saying is his viewpoint and his own experience. Chest thumping about your experience and dismissing his isn't exactly the way to provide your viewpoint here. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Reminds me when I used to work at a car dealership. Two detailers thought each others' methods were completely ass-backwards and wrong. Yet both produced desireable results in the grand scheme of it all....
This isn't a "six of one, half a dozen of the other" difference of opinion about which technique gives a better shine, fresher breath or whiter whites. John started this thread warning us in dire tones that using oil to remove rust will damage bluing.

That's a pretty specific statement of fact, which IMO defies both logic and experience.

Let's leave it at that.
natman is offline  
Old August 25, 2011, 10:11 PM   #31
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,302
Quote:
I disagree with both points - that oiled rust is as abrasive as dry rust and that dry rust magically vanishes.
Except that I said neither.

I said they're "about" the same and they are. The abrasives in lapping compounds are still abrasive even though they're suspended in some sort of petroleum based product and while oil may provide some minimal protection against the abrasive action, it won't make an abrasive into a non-abrasive.

And I didn't say anything about anything "magically" vanishing. It's pretty easy to see that if you use oil that the dislodged rust particles are held in place by the oil and can't be easily dusted off as they can be if the removal is done dry. It's not magic at all, it's pretty straightforward logic that's easily verified for those who haven't already had a similar experience.
Quote:
That's a pretty specific statement of fact, which IMO defies both logic and experience.
It doesn't defy logic at all, and I've taken pains to explain exactly why what I have said is logical. As far as defying experience, it clearly doesn't defy my experience although it's also clear that your experience and mine differ somewhat.

Rubbing rust on a blued finish will damage it because rust (iron oxide) is an abrasive and rubbing an abrasive on a blued finish will damage it. That said, is it possible to do it with only minimal, perhaps imperceptible damage? Clearly it is as your experience demonstrates. And before I tried it without oil, I was able to do a lot of rust removal using oil and 0000 steel wool without ruining guns although I did get some finish fading at times. However, after experimenting a little, I found that it was much easier to keep the finish intact if I didn't use oil during the actual rust removal process. Others I have mentioned this to have tried the method I suggested and achieved similar results.

Again, it's not like I have anything tied up in this. The only reason I pointed it out was because I have had a good bit of experience trying both methods while it appeared to me that most people had always assumed that it should be done with oil and never tried it any other way.

Again, I have no problem if people want to use oil (why would I?), but I think if they try both ways they will almost certainly get the same results I did.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old August 25, 2011, 11:04 PM   #32
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 7,060
The best of both methods is to liberally flush with WD 40-both the part and steel wool, and wipe the part down frequently. I have never used oil, as most oils are too thick and don't penetrate rust as easily as WD 40.
__________________
Bill DeShivs
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old August 25, 2011, 11:16 PM   #33
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,302
That makes sense. Anything that keeps the rust particles from building up and being rubbed around on the surface would do the trick.

I'll try that next time I have some rust removal work to do.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old August 26, 2011, 02:36 AM   #34
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
I've always heard that you should not use steel wool on a gun because the steel particles will get into the pores of the metal and oxidize. One should use 0000 stainless steel wool.
Edward429451 is offline  
Old August 26, 2011, 04:09 AM   #35
natman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2008
Posts: 1,419
This is a myth transposed from a true bit of advice concerning using steel wool on wood. Wood has enough pores to capture bits of steel wool which will eventually rust. Blued metal doesn't.
natman is offline  
Old August 26, 2011, 04:17 AM   #36
natman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2008
Posts: 1,419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs
The best of both methods is to liberally flush with WD 40-both the part and steel wool, and wipe the part down frequently. I have never used oil, as most oils are too thick and don't penetrate rust as easily as WD 40.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
That makes sense. Anything that keeps the rust particles from building up and being rubbed around on the surface would do the trick.

I'll try that next time I have some rust removal work to do.
Is this thread coming from the Twilight Zone? After arguing back and forth, someone else proposes precisely the method I've been advocating - keeping the steel wool wet and wiping the part down - and suddenly it makes sense.

You're right Bill, thin oils work best because they penetrate the rust better. WD-40 works just fine, although thicker oils will get the job done in a pinch.
natman is offline  
Old August 26, 2011, 01:37 PM   #37
brickeyee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2004
Posts: 3,342
Quote:
This is a myth transposed from a true bit of advice concerning using steel wool on wood. Wood has enough pores to capture bits of steel wool which will eventually rust. Blued metal doesn't.
You can rub enough steel into anything but highly polished stainless to then allow surface rust to occur if there is not enough oil present to protect the carbon steel.

I have seen it on brushed finished stainless guns, stainless knife blades, and even stainless kitchen sinks.

I remember shoeing a neighbor how to remove the rust on his kitchen sink from using SOS pads many years ago.

I customer had a stainless rifle that was not oiled well and brought in covered with light surface rust.
He regularly used steel wool to "even up" any minor scratches in the brushed finish, and was unaware that the gun needed at least some oil for protection.
brickeyee is offline  
Old August 26, 2011, 08:58 PM   #38
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,226
This is what passivating stainless is for. Etching out the free iron embedded by tooling (in this case steel wool) or other handling problems.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old August 27, 2011, 11:06 AM   #39
brickeyee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2004
Posts: 3,342
Quote:
This is what passivating stainless is for. Etching out the free iron embedded by tooling (in this case steel wool) or other handling problems.
Not just from tooling but cutting the steel atomic structure itself.

When you cut steel you end up with actual atoms of iron no longer protected by the structure of the steel.

Passivisation removes any exposed atoms of iron and leaves behind the alloying elements to form the protection layer.
brickeyee is offline  
Old August 27, 2011, 01:40 PM   #40
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,226
I thought the protective chromium oxide layer was supposed to reform itself when you cut stainless, but that you had to have the right chromium percentage for that to work well. Also that the truly stainless stuff wasn't tough enough for gun barrels and knife edges, and so the stainless property was partly compromised in order to get other desirable characteristics for these applications. I haven't studied it carefully. I do know from experience that 318 stainless screws have to be passivated after you buy them, or you get rust stain bleed.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old August 27, 2011, 03:16 PM   #41
salvadore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 1, 2007
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,828
how bout flitz? Is that a good idea?
salvadore is offline  
Old August 28, 2011, 01:26 PM   #42
brickeyee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2004
Posts: 3,342
Quote:
I thought the protective chromium oxide layer was supposed to reform itself when you cut stainless, but that you had to have the right chromium percentage for that to work well.
By removing any exposed atoms of Fe during passivation (often a nitric acid dip) the surface is left with only chromium exposed.
The oxidation layer quickly forms from air exposure.

Cutting tools do not have the resolution of atoms and the atomic organization of the metal.
brickeyee is offline  
Old August 28, 2011, 02:16 PM   #43
Pbearperry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 283
I have always used a copper penny on small rust spots.It removes the rust and spares the surrounding bluing.Just rub the spot lightly with the edge of the penny.Afterwards I touch it up with cold bluing and oil.
Pbearperry is offline  
Old September 6, 2011, 04:28 PM   #44
jimmyraythomason
Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2011
Posts: 15
Quote:
Use 0000 steel wool DRY.

The removed rust is an abrasive, if you put oil on the metal surface or on the steel wool, the removed rust is retained and rubbed on the surface which can damage the finish.
I have never had a problem using oil on 0000 steel wool in several decades of using it to remove surface rust from blued finishes. I always use WD-40 and 0000 steel wool to smooth newly blued guns to great affect. If using steel wool dry works for you,great but I'll continue to use oil.
jimmyraythomason is offline  
Old September 13, 2011, 08:59 PM   #45
603Country
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Location: Thornton, Texas
Posts: 2,253
The heavier the oil used with the steel wool, the lower the friction and the lower the abrasion. Use motor oil and you probably won't get much abrasion at all. Light machine oil (such as 3 in 1) or a penetrating oil (WD-40)will allow a higher degree of abrasion. Just have more than one pad of steel wool, and swap dirty pads for clean pads - quickly at first and then slower as the rust has been removed. And wipe off the oil on the rust spot between pad replacements and that'll take off any gritty rust residue that's sitting in the oily patch. You might even want to try a good car wax on the steel wool rather than the oil. However you go about it, go slowly and carefully. If 'slow and careful' doesn't take off enough rust, you can always get more energetic with the rubbing.
603Country is offline  
Old September 15, 2011, 12:58 PM   #46
Inspector3711
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2008
Location: Puget Sound Washington
Posts: 1,546
I remove rust on blued steel by soaking with with Kroil every day for several days.

I wipe off the Kroil and loose rust with a rag and then scrub the surface gently with green Scotchbrite. I wipe it clean with a rag and still more Kroil then wipe it dry with a clean rag.

I then gently polish with Flitz. The last step is to oil it.

I have yet to visibly damage the finish or have rust return using this method..
__________________
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." The Dalai Llama (5/15/01, The Seattle Times)
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." George Orwell
Inspector3711 is offline  
Old October 8, 2011, 03:39 PM   #47
Venom1956
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2008
Location: WI
Posts: 2,978
well since someone briought this back can i ask this. does the thickness of the brass brissles have an effect onn the ability ot scratching bluing? i ask because i am trying to fix up a brown with alot of rust and i am using my brass brush but there seems to be scratches on the bluing already but i want to make sure its not from my brush.
__________________
E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that.
I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph.
Venom1956 is online now  
Old October 10, 2011, 10:04 PM   #48
doofus47
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2010
Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent
Posts: 1,282
Quote:
I agree that 0000 steel wool and oil won't scratch blueing--in fact it takes some effort to scratch blueing even with unoiled 0000 steel wool. That's as expected given that carding/polishing with 0000 steel wool is part of some blueing processes.
Hate to boomerang this topic, but:
I just retrieved my deceased dad's shotgun from the homestead and it has light pitting and (for lack of a known term) "chipping" across the surface. It looks like some raised non-slip grip granules were added to some portions (not all) of the shot gun. It's a raised bump. I don't think this qualifies as "surface rust" the fix for which is described above. Or does it?

I ran some oil over the top to make the orange neon glow go away and make myself feel better, but can I use 0000 steel wool without losing the blue? Really? That doesn't seem possible.
doofus47 is offline  
Old October 10, 2011, 10:25 PM   #49
Chaz88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2010
Posts: 1,004
Quote:
It's a raised bump.
Sounds like intergranular or exfoliation corrosion. If it is, oxidation has started along the grain boundaries of the metal and will be almost imposable to fix, without grinding away the metal tell the corrosion is gone. That would probably destroy the gun.
__________________
Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time.

No spelun and grammar is not my specialty. So please don't hurt my sensitive little feelings by teasing me about it.
Chaz88 is offline  
Old October 11, 2011, 02:11 AM   #50
gyvel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2009
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 5,229
0000 steel wool and oil is NOT a good combination; However, 0000 and turpentine or 100% pure natural wintergreen oil works wonders. Both of them tend to dissolve the rust crystals and make them less abrasive. Wintergreen oil seems to work better.
gyvel is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14129 seconds with 7 queries