The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old February 24, 2008, 07:32 PM   #126
FerFAL
Member
 
Join Date: June 13, 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 57
Quote:
David Armstrong wrote:
Depending on the situation, I might lock the doors at times, at others I might not. There is more to the home life than a single "keep everyone outside" situation.
Why would you leave your door unlocked???

FerFAL
FerFAL is offline  
Old February 24, 2008, 07:46 PM   #127
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
Do any of the posters who recommend chamber empty carry for SA autos also recommend carrying DA revolvers with the hammer on an empty chamber?
Although some in the past used to suggest that, I don't think anyone does any more given a modern revolver. Looked at logically, chamber empty in the revolver does not change the dynamics of anything except ammo capacity.
Quote:
....so much as suggesting the possibility that an arm will be disabled early in the fight via bullet wound, knife wound, grab, or pinning of the body by the assailant(s).
Sure. There are all sorts of possibilities. My point is fairly simple: if these possibilities were much of a problem in real life we would have found out about it by now. But, on the contrary, we just don't see any evidence of that being an issue. You can create any possibility to prove a point, but one needs to see just how realistic that possibility is.
Quote:
not, then time comparisons are a bit incomplete.
The time comparisons were not meant to be complete. They were meant to deal with a specific issue, that of the time needed to get a round off between chambered and unchambered firearm. Again, that is the realistic question. If one wants to test for all sorts of low-likelihood probabilities, I'm all for it.

Quote:
Why would you leave your door unlocked???
Well, yesterday we were having a little party. Sort of silly to keep locking and unlocking doors as the guests move around from the house to the patio to the deck to the game room. So all the outside doorw were unlocked. Right now the front door is unlocked, but the back door is locked. I don't feel particularly fearful of boogie men running in through the door. When I go to sleep tonight, after my daughter gets back in, we'll lock up. I'll probably lock up tomorrow while I'm at work, although I've left the place unlocked before so workmen could get in, and so on. Frankly, if I had to live someplace where I thought I needed to keep my house locked up 24 hours a day I think I'd move.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old February 24, 2008, 08:08 PM   #128
FerFAL
Member
 
Join Date: June 13, 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 57
Man, it must be nice to live in such a safe place. I’d still lock the doors though.

If something ever did happen, not only the buggyman, but just a kid looking for cash to steal, even if it’s very unlikely, you’d want to kick your own butt for not using doors for their intended purpose: Keeping people out!

FerFAL
FerFAL is offline  
Old February 24, 2008, 08:21 PM   #129
FerFAL
Member
 
Join Date: June 13, 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 57
Quote:
David Armstrong wrote:
Sure. There are all sorts of possibilities. My point is fairly simple: if these possibilities were much of a problem in real life we would have found out about it by now. But, on the contrary, we just don't see any evidence of that being an issue. You can create any possibility to prove a point, but one needs to see just how realistic that possibility is.
I know of a few cases where an empty chamber would have proven fatal, actually that applies to most shootings I know of (people I know, or cases I’ve been told of by my instructor )
1)Cop shooting with a wounded (useless) arm.
2)Civilian drawing and shooting while keeping the discharging bad guy’s gun away from his face.
3)Civilian shooting a carjacker while keeping him away with his weak hand.
Just to quickly mention a few.

I don’t know anyone that carries a pistol with an empty chamber. Most gun people I know of that have been in gunfights would consider it a laughable idea.

Why carry with an empty chamber anyway? To avoid AD?
I’m sure that most people that had AD thought that the gun was empty at the time.

FerFAL
FerFAL is offline  
Old February 24, 2008, 08:28 PM   #130
Nemsis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2006
Location: Peoples Republic of Chicago
Posts: 386
Well I asked a good friend of mine who is a Chicago police officer this question and he said

and I quote" that don't make sense, it's like wiping before you poop"
__________________
"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas
Nemsis is offline  
Old February 24, 2008, 08:44 PM   #131
Chindo18Z
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 1999
Posts: 493
My point is fairly simple: if these possibilities were much of a problem in real life we would have found out about it by now.

As in the Jeff Cooper literary style imperial "we"? Well..."we" have found out about it.. even if you haven't.

In my case, admittedly unlikely theoretical events have already occurred; thus shaping my point of view. I expect no one to adhere to my point of view, but I throw it out there for consideration by those who may be undecided. Otherwise known as "YMMV".

Frankly, if I had to live someplace where I thought I needed to keep my house locked up 24 hours a day I think I'd move.

Frankly, if you live someplace where you think you need to own a gun for self defense, you should probably also move.

Neither frank opinion is particularly relevant to the discussion. Nor is the recommended course of action reasonable for most of us.

Changing azimuth...

Why would I want to carry a modern semi-auto chamber empty?

I'm willing to entertain a good reason, but I've yet to hear one.

Conversely, would it be a good idea to rotate the cylinder on my Colt, Smith, or Ruger revolvers so that the first DA trigger pull falls on an empty cylinder? Why or why not?

'Cause I'm thinking that we just might be on to a money-making training proposition here...

BTW: I'm enjoying the cut and thrust...so don't anyone take it personally.
__________________
Figure The Odds...
Chindo18Z is offline  
Old February 24, 2008, 09:14 PM   #132
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
AD/ND

I don't ever remember reading about an AD or ND caused by a round having been chambered. The vast majority of AD/ND I've read about have been caused directly by operator error. One or two have been hangfire scenarios, but those may not have been appropriately handled by operators.

I have heard of sear failures causing additional, unintended follow-on shots, but I can't say I've heard of an AD caused by a chambered round, on its own.

Can anybody cite instances where AD or ND happened to a cocked and locked SA that did not involve operator error (finger on trigger; muzzle pointed someplace inappropriate, etc)?
MLeake is offline  
Old February 24, 2008, 09:18 PM   #133
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Unlikely events

It seems to me that while being mugged / attacked is statistically unlikely, that it would be even unlikelier to be mugged / attacked by somebody who did not attempt in any way to interfere with the victim's attempt to draw a weapon.

For example: Would a woman being attacked by a would-be rapist be likely to have both hands easily free?

We must have some seriously incompetent thugs in the US these days...

Side note: Trying to draw my 1911 from strongside IWB with weak hand is a real pain. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a comfortable crossdraw position...
MLeake is offline  
Old February 24, 2008, 09:23 PM   #134
acetum
Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2008
Posts: 16
I've skimmed threw some posts.... Here are my two cents....

I've carried a CCW for 12 years now, I've been in 2 shootings (3 dead bad guys). I shoot about 1000 rounds a month, all different scenario’s.

Both shootings happened at night: one caught me off guard (drive by shooting), the other I knew was coming (tried to rob the wrong guy, he lost I won, obviously).

Could I have chambered a round in both shootings? Yes. But why?

If you want to carry without one in the pipe then good for you. But don't ever have one in the pipe for any reason, unless you just racked it and are going to pull the trigger.

If you're going to carry one in the pipe, good for you too, then don't ever have your piece without one, including while you sleep, when you shower, or any other time. You train, you practice, and shoot, one way and only one way (in pipe or standby). Any other combinations and you cause doubt. Not only you but those around you. My wife knows that if she ever has too, she can pick up any of my firearms and pull the trigger.

My buddy was VBPD and now DALPD he's had 2 accidental discharges! He carries in stanby. I've had none. Statistics are good for politics in RL they mean doodoo.
acetum is offline  
Old February 24, 2008, 09:34 PM   #135
FerFAL
Member
 
Join Date: June 13, 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 57
Quote:
MLeake worte:
Side note: Trying to draw my 1911 from strongside IWB with weak hand is a real pain. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a comfortable crossdraw position...
Bend your torso forward, chest pointed to the floor as much as you can (the more you bend, the easier it will be to draw)
With your weak hand going behind your back you grab the grip and draw.
That’s the standard weak hand draw, when the gun is on your strong side.

FerFAL
FerFAL is offline  
Old February 24, 2008, 10:44 PM   #136
jabotinsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 8, 2007
Posts: 105
Quote:
Why would I want to carry a modern semi-auto chamber empty?
I usually don't carry for personal protection, but generally leave my weapons with chamber empty so I don't have to focus on different "safety" mechanisms, knowing I or my wife or friend could pick up any weapon in the place, rack and fire.
jabotinsky is offline  
Old February 25, 2008, 09:46 AM   #137
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Carrying solely for the sake of transporting the weapon

Jabotinsky,

If you are transporting the weapon solely to transport it, why have any ammo in it at all? It would be safest to leave it with no round in chamber and no mag in the well, wouldn't it?

This seems like an apples and oranges comparison, when discussing what people do for SD carry...
MLeake is offline  
Old February 25, 2008, 11:55 AM   #138
jabotinsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 8, 2007
Posts: 105
Quote:
f you are transporting the weapon solely to transport it, why have any ammo in it at all? It would be safest to leave it with no round in chamber and no mag in the well, wouldn't it?

This seems like an apples and oranges comparison, when discussing what people do for SD carry...
Good question. The OP wasn't asking about CCW for self defense, just a generic "are there times an unchambered weapon can be a big problem?"

If you're talking about carrying, and if I was going to CCW in a bad place because I had absolutely no other choice, I'd want one in the pipe.

But my purpose for a permit is not to conceal carry frequently because of personal safety fears. In my state, I have to separate ammo from weapons during transport in different compartments, and need to be traveling to a dealer or range. With a CCW permit, that disappears. Taking an extra weapon out but no room in the bag? Throw it in your pocket. Want to have a piece in the glove compartment in case you get stuck somewhere? Don't need one chambered, but don't wanna have to fish for the mag? No problema. Want to carry something in your backpack on a camping trip just in case? Another flood has knocked out power and alarms in your neighborhood? ..the list goes on and on.

I have chosen in my life not to have a weapon instantly deployable at all times. And despite all the interesting posts in this thread, there remains very little evidence of significant numbers of weapon usage disasters due to keeping them unchambered.
jabotinsky is offline  
Old February 25, 2008, 12:03 PM   #139
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
As in the Jeff Cooper literary style imperial "we"?
No, as in the "we who do research on topics like this instead dof relying on anecdotes."
Quote:
Frankly, if you live someplace where you think you need to own a gun for self defense, you should probably also move.
Huh?? The choice of where I live has nothing to do with owning a gun, or carrying a gun. I would suggest that owning a gun for self defense is quite a different issue than being afraid to leave your door unlocked on your house at any time.
Quote:
Why would I want to carry a modern semi-auto chamber empty?
Because it fits their personal situation better.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old February 25, 2008, 03:09 PM   #140
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
it fits whose personal situation better?

I'm not quite sure which "their" David Armstrong meant in that last post. Not trying to be a wiseguy, just not sure who "they" are.

So far, this thread seems to hold two major camps. One group is primarily focused on SD issues, and feels strongly that the tactical advantages to eliminating the added time and step (chance for things to go awry) are worth the suggested (but nowhere demonstrated on this thread) risk posed by carrying with a chambered round (cocked and locked SA or decocked DA).

The other group is more worried about AD/ND than SD, and feels the overall risk of the chambered round is greater than the risk of a blindside / ambush attack.

Still, nobody has shown any statistics supporting the argument that a chambered round is a great threat to the operator.

Academic/statistician types, please?
MLeake is offline  
Old February 25, 2008, 04:29 PM   #141
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
I'm not quite sure which "their" David Armstrong meant in that last post. Not trying to be a wiseguy, just not sure who "they" are.
My bad, I misread the post. Trying to get some stuff done in a hurry. Should have read "your" instead of "their".
Quote:
So far, this thread seems to hold two major camps.
I think you left out a camp. How about the "each has advantages and disadvantages, but most of the time it doesn't even matter, so figure out what is best for you in your particular situation" camp. Also, I think you have presented camps 1 and 2 in a distinctly biased manner, FWIW.
Quote:
Still, nobody has shown any statistics supporting the argument that a chambered round is a great threat to the operator.
One might also point out that nobody has shown any statistics supporting the argument that carrying with an empty chamber is a great threat to the operator either. But even without the stats, I think most folks if they are honest about it will admit there are a lot more AD/NDs than shootings of BGs. Whether or not that is an issue is a separate discussion, IMO.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old February 25, 2008, 04:43 PM   #142
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,558
Well, since there are supposed 1M to 2M DGUs and no shots fired in 95% of time (if Kleck holds up) - then it is clear that that the ND rate must be significant less than the failure to win the day rate as that can be done with no ammo in the gun. There aren't 1M NDs.

So, is it legit to compare the rate of failures to actual win the day in a gun fight where shots were to be fired with or without a round chambered to the rate of actually ND in what situations?

Kid getting the gun, you putting it a box, pulling the trigger by mistake - or what? I've seen two videos of officers running up to a fight and putting their fingers on the trigger having an ND.

It would be really hard to come up with a solid decision analysis on this one with comparable situations.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old February 25, 2008, 04:45 PM   #143
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Biases and AD's

I don't think I'm showing bias, so much as frustration. Posters claim that their beliefs are based on statistics vs anecdotes, but then fail to cite any pertinent statistics. That makes their claims seem somehow condescending, at least to me.

I will grant, based on own observation while deployed with the military, that AD/ND events happen. However, the majority of those with which I've been acquainted occurred at the loading barrels, where people chamber and unchamber rounds from sidearms and rifles. I never understood why certain quarters made such a big issue of AD at the barrels; it's why we have barrels...

However, the ND's I've read reports on tended to be along these lines:

1) Airman is walking with chambered round in M16, holding rifle by pistol grip. Airman falls. Claims finger was not on trigger, and safety failed. Selector found in semi-auto position. No injuries. Investigators think airman's finger was on trigger.

2) Security guards are bored, and decide to practice quick-draw with M9 pistols. One shoots the other in abdomen. Victim dies.

IE, it's not the chambered round, it's the mishandling of the weapon, either by improper selection of safety position, or gross stupidity.

Please cite some stats showing the risk of AD from a properly handled weapon.
MLeake is offline  
Old February 25, 2008, 07:00 PM   #144
45Marlin carbine
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2007
Location: South-Western North Carolina
Posts: 1,124
I got a Makarov. practically imposible to fire the loaded chamber without knocking off the safety.
45Marlin carbine is offline  
Old February 25, 2008, 11:45 PM   #145
Chindo18Z
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 1999
Posts: 493
Huh?? The choice of where I live has nothing to do with owning a gun, or carrying a gun. I would suggest that owning a gun for self defense is quite a different issue than being afraid to leave your door unlocked on your house at any time.

You must have missed the intended sarcasm. I should have added an emoticon. Locked doors and self-defense gun ownership are actually two expressions of the same basic need...self-preservation. Again...I think neither are relevant to the discussion at hand.

-----------

Why would I want to carry a modern semi-auto chamber empty?

Because it fits their personal situation better.

In all seriousness...what does that mean? That I should carry chamber empty because it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling? I guess I'm actually looking for a more defineable physical advantage which would be conferred by chamber empty carry.

---------------------

No, as in the 'we who do research on topics like this instead dof relying on anecdotes.'

I agree with you...anecdotes are questionable. Which is why I don't base my carry mode on them.
__________________
Figure The Odds...

Last edited by Chindo18Z; February 26, 2008 at 12:57 AM. Reason: typo
Chindo18Z is offline  
Old February 26, 2008, 12:09 AM   #146
stevejet
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2007
Posts: 10
One handed slide racking

I am new to this site, but my Colt .45 80 Series Government Model has been my only semi-auto pistol since 1984 and I've been reloading and shooting handguns for better than 37 years. But I have to plead ignorance here and ask....How do you rack a slide one-handed?
stevejet is offline  
Old February 26, 2008, 12:13 AM   #147
DonR101395
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2005
Location: NWFL
Posts: 3,029
Quote:
How do you rack a slide one-handed?
Hook the rear sight on your belt, holster or heal of your boot.
DonR101395 is offline  
Old February 26, 2008, 12:32 AM   #148
stevejet
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2007
Posts: 10
One handed slide racking

Thanks DonR - After reading your response on the one-handed slide rack technique, I vote to flip the thumb safety off and fire the cartridge already in the chamber.
stevejet is offline  
Old February 26, 2008, 08:19 AM   #149
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,348
Quote:
Hook the rear sight on your belt, holster or heal of your boot.
This doesn't work if you have snag-free sights common to many concealed carry guns. So then you have to hook the muzzle end (which is really hard if you have a FLGR and adds an additional layer of danger to the rack because of a lack of muzzle safety) or do a friction rack by pressing the top of the slide against your thigh or hip with enough force that it will be held in place with friction as you push against the gun to cause it to rack.

Most ranges will not let you practice any of these one-handed racks because of muzzle orientation/safety issues.
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old February 26, 2008, 08:31 AM   #150
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
One handed rack for shotgun

Once upon a time, they also taught us how to rack a 12ga pump one handed, by gripping the pump between knees or thighs. At least the muzzle is usually well clear of body parts during this technique.

With pistols, not so much...

I haven't had a lot of formal training compared to many TFL members, but what training I have received was from USMC and SF instructors, so I had the opportunity to practice these techniques with live rounds. (As stated by Double Naught Spy, ranges are not likely to let you do these things)

I think my favorite instructor line (vehicle extrication drill) was:

"Don't shoot the truck! It's leased!"

Amazingly, we didn't shoot the truck.
MLeake is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.17376 seconds with 7 queries