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Old February 22, 2008, 08:40 PM   #76
tplumeri
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it's a viable option to carry an unloaded gun or a fake gun
what about just loading blanks.
Oh, sorry, thats already been discussed ....
BTW john, I know you werent advocating unloaded guns!
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Old February 22, 2008, 08:42 PM   #77
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Carrying an unloaded gun (or one loaded with blanks) violates one of the major rules of drawing a weapon. The rule that if you draw it, you better be willing and able to use it. Carrying without a round chambered does not violate this rule.
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Old February 22, 2008, 08:43 PM   #78
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although it's certainly a valid an argument "for most civilians not in hot zone" if all we consider are the statistics.
John, what else can we go with when planning for safety? I have two kids under the age of 5 in the casa...hard for them to rack most of my weapons...statistics tell me there's more deaths from kids getting guns than not having the additional step in an SD situation of racking a slide; more deaths from NDs, etc statistically. Gives me an idea of what to worry about. Penguin said it best, it's how far you already take the unlikely.

In my state, a CCW lets me pretty much transport guns and ammo anywhere, any way I want. Sometimes a dude wants a piece on him just for comfort. Like when camping in the middle of nowhere or during natural disasters or after a terrorist attack or prison breakout or because you've got to Grandma out of that declining neighborhood. Chambered? Sometimes. Doesn't need to be all the time. Statistics say it'll help me live longer. Like moderate drinking, less sunshine, and green teas. See, guns are natural and healthy?
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Old February 22, 2008, 08:52 PM   #79
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"Given the statistics" which say that the vast majority of self-defense gun uses do not even require that the gun is fired, it is hard to argue with that. However, it's not often you see people advocating that it's a viable option to carry an unloaded gun or a fake gun based on statistics--although it's certainly a valid an argument "for most civilians not in hot zone" if all we consider are the statistics.
Right. The "statistics" represent historical data that are mutually exclusive from whatever situation you may find yourself in when you need a gun. Such data are not good for predicting what may or may not happen to YOU in YOUR situation.
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Old February 22, 2008, 09:16 PM   #80
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I'm thinking that is too vague. It takes precious little time to rack a slide while bringing a gun up from a holster, in fact, maybe no appreciable extra time at all.
its evident that you have not yet experienced a mugging, an armed robbery, or experienced the tunnel vision and hear pounding of an Adrenalin rush as you find yourself in eminent danger of being killed.
Benefiting from the experience of others might save your life.
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Old February 22, 2008, 09:22 PM   #81
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John, what else can we go with when planning for safety? I have two kids under the age of 5 in the casa...hard for them to rack most of my weapons...
Jabotinsky ~

That, right there, was why I got in the habit of carrying even at home. (We have five closely-spaced sons who are now mostly into the teenage years.)

Because I have more than the average number of kids, I do know something about small children. So I've really got to urge you NOT to rely on "but they can't rack the slide" as your sole layer of safety between them & a terrible tragedy. Adults sometimes make mistakes, and can accidentally leave a round chambered. Even if the adult makes no human mistakes, little kids can rack a slide, under some circumstances. If the kid is mechanically inclined, or just really stubborn, it might occur to him to shove the slide against the edge of the table, putting his full weight behind it. Furthermore, small children have a really disconcerting habit of growing faster than their parents expect, and suddenly learning to do stuff they were completely incapable of doing just last week.

Just as it's a bad idea to rely on a hopefully empty chamber, it's also a bad idea to rely on a really stiff trigger that a small child "can't" pull. All of the above applies (kids do grow). And one of the classic patterns for small children shooting themselves involves the kid exploring the gun from the muzzle end and pushing the trigger away from him, while the muzzle is pointed typically at his face or upper chest as he leans into it.

A two-year-old sitting on top of my fridge one afternoon taught me how ungood it is to rely on storing anything "up high where the kids can't get it." It doesn't matter how young the kids are, or how generally well behaved; if they want to badly enough, they can indeed get up high enough to reach anything in the house.

If you are not willing to do whatever it takes to keep the guns absolutely, totally, 100% reliably out of your children's unsupervised hands, then you probably should not keep a gun in the house while you have small children. The danger is simply not worth the risk.

This does not mean that you leave your kids in ignorance, by the way. As the kids grow, they need to be exposed to a very deliberate program of firearms education, starting from the time they are old enough to talk (www.corneredcat.com/Kids/firstlesson.aspx) and continuing up through the high school and early college years (www.corneredcat.com/Kids/talking.aspx).

Bottom line, on a thread-related note: if your personal assessment of the costs vs benefits means you decide not to keep a round chambered for whatever personal/tactical reason you choose, I might disagree with you but it's not worth anyone else worrying about. But if the reason you're not keeping a round chambered is because you are keeping otherwise-loaded weapons somewhere you believe or suspect your young children can get to, well, that's just a Really, Really Bad Idea, because you are gambling your children's lives (and your family's happiness) on something that is decidedly less than certain.

Teach your kids, keep the guns locked up when not in use, stay safe.

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Old February 22, 2008, 09:29 PM   #82
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Thread drift:

"So I've really got to urge you NOT to rely on "but they can't rack the slide" as your sole layer of safety between them & a terrible tragedy."

Absolutely. Opinions of Israeli style aside, this rational should NOT be the basis for anyone deciding to use it.
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Old February 22, 2008, 09:31 PM   #83
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Gunfight statistics & probabilities...great stuff to leisurely debate over a cup of coffee in front of the keyboard. BTW: Exactly what I'm doing.

In this and every other thread on the same topic, I've yet to see anyone coherently explain why I would WANT to carry chamber empty.

I see no upside, but (rather) a whole lot of downside to the concept.

It's akin to standing under a thunderstorm on a golf course with a metal club upraised. Or riding a motorcycle without a helmet. You might get away with it, but it isn't smart.

I've been a parachutist for my entire adult life. I'm statistically unlikely to ever need my reserve parachute. Except for the one time I did.

I've been in grappling fights where I would have been happy to even reach my sidearm (much less rack the slide on a paperweight).
I've been blindsided and knocked unconscious by an unseen opponent while busy fighting someone else. I was lucky and had friends (or I'd have been smoked). I've also had my weak hand arm pinned against an obstacle or bodies during struggles.

I'm not carrying my M4A1 chamber empty while I wait for clues that it might be time to chamber a round along Route Tampa. I'm damn sure not carrying a pistol which is not instantly ready to fire. On duty or off...the mode is the same and my life is no less important to me in a WalMart parking lot than it is in Khost or Diyalah.

Several of my friends (police and combat arms brothers) have suffered debilitating hand/arm wounds in the first seconds of assaults, police gunfights, and military firefights.

All my personal life-experience tells me that there is a high likelihood for needing to gunfight one-handed and that bad things happen REALLY fast.

Hope is not a viable strategy & empty chamber carry is utter foolishness.

As always, YMMV...but, hey, it's just the internet.
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Old February 22, 2008, 09:38 PM   #84
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Back on topic:

I find it interesting when threat analyses disrgeard extremes, in that clasically preperation for extremes insures success in dealing with the body.
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Old February 22, 2008, 09:43 PM   #85
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I find it interesting when threat analyses disrgeard extremes, in that clasically preperation for extremes insures success in dealing with the body.
Sorry, run that by me again?
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Old February 22, 2008, 09:56 PM   #86
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IMHO, carrying without a round chambered because of a fear of ND/AD is an indication of lack of proper training.
Try to push off one or more people draw, chamber a round and fire during non-staged FOF training and it will become very evident that when your weapon clears the holster it better be ready to fire. Strong arm robbers seldom act alone and their lookout is not only there as a lookout, but as a backup to the primary actor.

YMMV
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Old February 22, 2008, 10:32 PM   #87
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I'm not carrying my M4A1 chamber empty while I wait for clues that it might be time to chamber a round along Route Tampa....On duty or off...the mode is the same and my life is no less important to me in a WalMart parking lot than it is in Khost or Diyalah.
If you're toting around an M4 you're already in a different world than me. For me as a civilian, life should be experienced differently when shopping at a suburban strip mall on a Sunday than when theoretically patrolling some insurgent haven in Iraq. It's about the quality of one's life, the richness, some of which is not fully realized when one's center is constantly drifting off in rumination over tactics to be used against mythical attackers that never appear.


Quote:
Try to push off one or more people draw, chamber a round and fire during non-staged FOF training and it will become very evident that when your weapon clears the holster it better be ready to fire. Strong arm robbers seldom act alone and their lookout is not only there as a lookout, but as a backup to the primary actor.
What are the odds my home is going to be invaded by your demon ninjas that somehow silently creep past lights and dogs and over loose game pieces to have me need to push them off me rack my slide only to find out one's like an understudy to the main actor, oh wait, that sounds like tactical talk.... Anyway, what are the odds? Enough that I should walk around my house with a chambered sidearm at all times or merely rely on randomly placed weapons about my living space.


Quote:
So I've really got to urge you NOT to rely on "but they can't rack the slide" as your sole layer of safety between them & a terrible tragedy.
A gift for the bloody obvious. Thanks, Counselor Troy...
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Old February 22, 2008, 10:45 PM   #88
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tplumeri, I know exactly what Erik is saying.

He is saying he finds it funny that we are all prepared (some better equiped than others) to visit violence upon those who would do us harm, but we are not prepared for how far we have to take it to win. In essence, one cannot be a "hobbyist" when it comes to this stuff. As for the "one in a million" chances guys, if you're so comfortable with those odds, why are you carrying in the first place? Put the gun in the safe and carry on. the chances of needing a gun are one in a million, right?
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Old February 22, 2008, 10:53 PM   #89
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What are the odds my home is going to be invaded by your demon ninjas that somehow silently creep past lights and dogs and over loose game pieces to have me need to push them off me rack my slide only to find out one's like an understudy to the main actor, oh wait, that sounds like tactical talk.... Anyway, what are the odds? Enough that I should walk around my house with a chambered sidearm at all times or merely rely on randomly placed weapons about my living space.

Go to google news and type in home invasion. I'd say the odds are extremely high that there will be more than one or two actors. These stories are just from page one of todays news seach; there were 13 pages of links to news articles just from todays news. Out of the nine articles on the first page of todays news search only one involved a lone actor; a female school teacher.
Call it ninja, call it tactical, call it whatever you like and choose to ignore the fact that criminals rarely act alone. Read some of the FBI crime stats or are they too tacticool for you also. Like I said, YMMV, so do as you please.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_8324727
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wi...,5299374.story
http://www.bellinghamherald.com/nort...ry/330144.html
http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/st...9&nav=168XDWn7
http://capitalnews9.com/content/head...n/Default.aspx
http://www.wkyt.com/news/headlines/15889052.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...23/2170655.htm
http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs..../80222086/1075
http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs..../80222086/1075



Oh wait, that right you have a gun, therefore you need no more training or study
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Old February 22, 2008, 11:35 PM   #90
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Go to google news and type in home invasion. I'd say the odds are extremely high that there will be more than one or two actors.
Okay. Let's say many "home invasions" involve more than one person. Still, what are the odds you're going to die in your lifetime because of the added step of racking a slide during a home invasion? One in 22 million, or what? Than how 'bout more light bulbs, couple canines and some deadbolts?

Call it statistics, call it history, but the odds are you will probably live longer if you habitually handle weapons unchambered than if you don't.
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Old February 22, 2008, 11:43 PM   #91
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Okay. Let's say many "home invasions" involve more than one person. Still, what are the odds you're going to die in your lifetime because of the added step of racking a slide during a home invasion?
Not to get off topic but in a home invasion I'll have a shotgun, cocked and locked.
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Old February 22, 2008, 11:46 PM   #92
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Okay. Let's say many "home invasions" involve more than one person. Still, what are the odds you're going to die in your lifetime because of the added step of racking a slide during a home invasion? One in 22 million, or what? Than how 'bout more light bulbs, couple canines and some deadbolts?

Call it statistics, call it history, but the odds are you will probably live longer if you habitually handle weapons unchambered than if you don't.
I've never been in a car accident either, but I still buckle up and pay for insurance. I've never had high blood pressure, but I still watch my sodium intake. I guess I just came from a KISS kind of upbringing. No need to put extra steps where they don't need to be. If you don't feel comfortable with a round chambered, by all means don't chamber it, but it is complicating something that shouldn't be complicated. Getting the gun into action when it needs to be.
Using your logic, if you don't handle a gun you'll live longer also. It simply can't be proven.
Statistically speaking most people will never need a gun for anything other than going to the range, but I'd rather not leave my fate to playing the odds.

Take Care,
Don
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Old February 22, 2008, 11:53 PM   #93
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In essence, one cannot be a "hobbyist" when it comes to this stuff. As for the "one in a million" chances guys, if you're so comfortable with those odds, why are you carrying in the first place?
Why bother carrying a gun at all if you are not going to carry a full size rifle, body armor, helmet, and flash grenades?
Quote:
I've never been in a car accident either, but I still buckle up and pay for insurance.
But do you weld in a crash rated roll cage, install four point seat belts, and strip your car of non-essential equipment that may cause injury in an accident?
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Old February 22, 2008, 11:53 PM   #94
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The Canuk said it all. Better yet ship 'em to my ffl, I would be more than happy to use 'em.
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Old February 22, 2008, 11:58 PM   #95
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But do you weld in a crash rated roll cage, install four point seat belts, and strip your car of non-essential equipment that may cause injury in an accident?
Actually yes Cage is mounted to the frame only two seats with 5 point harnesses and no non-essential stuff installed.



Sorry that is the fun truck. I also carry one in the chamber, I also occasionally carry a 1911 one in the chamber condition 1
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Old February 23, 2008, 12:01 AM   #96
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Actually yes
No doors or airbags...deathtrap! You should not take that thing out of the driveway. I am surprised you have survived five minutes in that thing.
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Old February 23, 2008, 12:07 AM   #97
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No doors or airbags...deathtrap! You should not take that thing out of the driveway. I am surprised you have survived five minutes in that thing.
But it's got a canoe on top, I just cropped the picture a little too small
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Old February 23, 2008, 12:23 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Playboypenguin
Why bother carrying a gun at all if you are not going to carry a full size rifle, body armor, helmet, and flash grenades?
You have failed to remember Cooper's words. "A pistol is for when you don't expect trouble. When you expect trouble, do what Playboypenguin sez"... well, to paraphrase...
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Old February 23, 2008, 12:57 AM   #99
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On numerous threads people talk about needing to have a bullet chambered because one might not have the split second needed to rack the slide if you carry a semi-auto. I think it would be good to talk about the scenarios that one might find themselves in that wouldn't allow you the time to rack a bullet into the chamber.
Think about why you carry a concealed weapon in the first place. To protect your life. Knowing this, if you do not trust your gun while loaded, it poses more of a danger to your life, then one you might use it against.

If you don't trust the gun to keep a round in the chamber, DO NOT CARRY IT. When you decided to carry a gun, you entrusted your LIFE to that gun. Think about that. YOUR LIFE depends on when that trigger is pulled, the gun will fire.

I do not think a SINGLE person on this board, under stress from an attacker wants their gun to go "snap" when they pull the trigger, because if it does, they are a DEAD person.

I carry both of my XDs with one in the chamber. They WILL NOT fire unless I make them. They are my LIFE. When I have one, my life depends on that weapon doing what it was designed to do.

I do not think that, under the stress that comes with defending MY LIFE, or the LIFE of one I love, could I draw, rack, turn the safety off and then have the time or state of mind to get a target sight and fire.

I will draw, aim, and fire. PERIOD. No questions about it, there is ZERO chance that I can mess up racking a round into the chamber, fumbling with a switch, or otherwise improperly using my tool that I have chosen to lean my life on.

The simple fact is that, you DO NOT KNOW if you will have time to rack the slide or not, or if you will even be physically able or mentally stable enough to do it.

I think the answer to your question would be,

There are ZERO situations in which you should carry empty chamber.

Basically. I would rather have one and not need it, then need it and not have it. Carry at YOUR own risk.
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Old February 23, 2008, 03:04 AM   #100
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"If you're toting around an M4 you're already in a different world than me. For me as a civilian, life should be experienced differently when shopping at a suburban strip mall on a Sunday than when theoretically patrolling some insurgent haven in Iraq."

It's called Planet Earth not Planet Pollyanna. There are actually more available flavors of life experience than everyday vanilla.

You are worried enough about life to own a gun for self defense but not enough to keep it ready? Does that about sum it up? Sounds like being a little bit pregnant...

Iraq, Afhganistan, the Balkans, and several other places were theoretical to me until I experienced them. Had I never left home, I'd have still seen enough to temper my ideas about self defense.

I've lived an upper middle-class existence in what most would consider to be extremely low crime environments for most of my life in America. Nevertheless, I know family members, friends, and work aquaintences who have been victims of homicide, assault, domestic violence, robbery, rape, car jacking, and home invasion. Most of them were shocked that violence visited their lives. Most were not remotely prepared or even armed. Several that were armed were unable to access their weapons. They had the attitude that mere firearm ownership was a powerful talisman to ward off the bogieman. They also had a problem with actually believing that the bogieman was real vice theoretical. Until it was too late.

Some respondents to these threads are philosophically snickering about "Lions and Tigers and Bears...Oh My!". Some of us have been to the dark woods and are merely pointing out that we've seen the critters...and that you might want to be ready.

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"A pistol with a round in the chamber is a gun, without one in the chamber it's a paperweight with potential." – Wuchak / TFL
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