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Old February 21, 2008, 09:45 PM   #51
mountainclmbr
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Always ready to fire. Why not just leave it in the gun safe and go get it if you need to...the other extreme points out the flaws.
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Old February 21, 2008, 10:26 PM   #52
ActivShootr
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Scenario

Let say I am leaving the grocery store carring my infant son in one arm and a bag of groceries in the other. Someone is approaching me and an attack is immenent. Do I drop the only thing that matters to me in this world?

Cocked and locked my friend.
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Old February 21, 2008, 10:46 PM   #53
Nemsis
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unless you carry your revolver with an empty chamber also I don't understand why you would on a semi. What's the purpose of keeping it empty?


what do you think would have happened to you when those lions attacked if you had a semi with an empty chamber instead of that revolver?
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Old February 21, 2008, 10:49 PM   #54
M14fan
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condition one

I will cheerfully drop STUFF! I will not drop children. Condition one is the only way to insure the ability to get your weapon into play reliably without further jeopardizing the child or infant in your arms. I have faced this exact reality many years past. The event was resolved without shots fired but only because the weapon was up and ready to fire quickly and smoothly and was recognized by the threat who fled immediately. My own body was easily interposed between the toddler I was carrying and the threat.
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Old February 21, 2008, 10:50 PM   #55
wyocarp
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I think the problem that needs to be adressed here is being discussed, but needs to be brought up in words.
That is Is keeping the chamber empty and racking the action when I need the firearm worth the trade off. Can those preciouse split seconds compensate for the risk of having a higher pissibility of a negligent discharge by keeping a round in the chamber?
That is exactly it. I know that some on here are quite proficient. I am also quite sure that some don't use their guns enough. Should we all carry them in the same way?
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Old February 21, 2008, 10:55 PM   #56
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Everyone is speaking of racking the slide in terms of "time." Think of it as a step in a process, albeit an unnecessary step. When you add a step to any process you add the potential for errors [slippery hands, injury or being restrained preventing a step from occurring, etc.] . Remember K.I.S.S., point and shoot, this alone under a stressful situation may in itself be difficult for those who do not train regularly, why add an unnecessary step? The advent of the firing pin block makes it 'safe' to carry a round chambered (not trying to open a can of worms with that statement). I vote for a chambered round
...

A lot of good points. Thanks.
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Old February 21, 2008, 10:58 PM   #57
imahotshot
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I think it was Col. Jeff Cooper said that in a gun fight mindset is one of the most important factors. If you are afraid to carry a chambered round I think your mindset is really in a fog. If you are afraid to carry a chambered round you probably shouldn't be carrying a sidearm in the first place!
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Old February 21, 2008, 10:59 PM   #58
orionengnr
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That is exactly it. I know that some on here are quite proficient. I am also quite sure that some don't use their guns enough. Should we all carry them in the same way?
If one is so disinclined to practice or is so incompetent that an ND is a likely outcome, then one should seriously re-consider the responsibilities inherent in carrying. Period.
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Old February 22, 2008, 10:42 AM   #59
David Armstrong
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I'm thinking that is too vague. It takes precious little time to rack a slide while bringing a gun up from a holster, in fact, maybe no appreciable extra time at all.
Correct, and there is another point to go with that. First, right, it does not take any appreciable extra time to rack the slide during the presentation. We actually had a course at the gun club a few years back that had the shooter fire two separate strings of fire. The course of fire was identical except for the fact that one string started chamber empty and the other started chamber loaded. The average difference in time to first shot was less than .20 second. For some shooters, the chamber empty was actually faster on some presentations, but nobody found it to be much slower. And if the big concern is "how fast" the way you carry the gun (IWB.OWB, position of holster, on or off-body, cover garments, etc.) will impact that time as much or more than having a round in the chamber or not.
The other point, and I think the bigger point, is "If there is a difference, does it matter?" And the answer seems to be a rather resounding "no". For it to matter the incident has to break down into a very narrow time frame where you still have time to draw the gun, but don't have tome to chamber the round. If it is on either side of that very narrow 1/4 second (estimated) time frame it does not matter.
About the only legitimate problem is the one-handed issue, and apparently it isn't much of an issue. Throughout most of our autoloading handgun history the usual carry made has been chamber empty. If there was a big problem with this, we would have heard about it. We haven't.
From a pure gunfighting position, chamber loaded is better. However, there is lots to life besides gunfighting, and taken as a whole chamber empty can be a viable solution for certain people in certain situations. Either way, it doesn't matter much. My $.02
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Old February 22, 2008, 11:12 AM   #60
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At risk of being flamed...

... the one-handed issue is another reason why at least some martial arts training is useful, specifically, training in evading grabs and strikes.

I'm not talking about in-your-face, mano a mano brawling, but learning how to quickly and efficiently use foot movement and hip position to get out of harm's way long enough to draw and fire if necessary.

These are useful skills regardless of age or physical conditioning, unless one really has trouble even walking.

Aikido, judo, and jujutsu are all good styles for breaking or evading grabs, and redirecting strikes. Tai Chi is user-friendly to older or less fit students, and has the added bonus of greatly improving the fitness of its students through slow-motion, low impact movement.

Some schools also teach how to draw a weapon while being grabbed by the strong hand's wrist. While the usual focus is on blades, it also applies to sidearms. You'd be surprised at how easy it is to complete the draw, when you know how to move. You probably wouldn't be surprised at how hard this is, if you only try to meet strength with strength.
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Old February 22, 2008, 12:31 PM   #61
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I've not been attacked by a person.
Therin lies the problem. Murphey tends to appear at times when we really don't want him to. If you are having to draw and load your weapon while being attacked is a good time for Murphey to appear.

Thus, I want my weapon loaded to minimize Murphey's opportunities of fouling something up. He gets too many chances as it is.

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Old February 22, 2008, 12:39 PM   #62
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An unloaded gun is an expensive and ineffective club.
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Old February 22, 2008, 03:02 PM   #63
Boris Bush
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David Armstrong

Quote:
We actually had a course at the gun club a few years back that had the shooter fire two separate strings of fire. The course of fire was identical except for the fact that one string started chamber empty and the other started chamber loaded. The average difference in time to first shot was less than .20 second.
That was a course at a range. B27 targets do not try and rob you in the mall parking lot! While I have never one time in my life ever been in a gun fight in the civilian world (the mere presence of my weapon changed minds a couple times). I have however seen .20 seconds kill people. wether it be in the civilian world or a war zone you NEED every advantage you can get. A rifle carried lacksadaisyly not ready to fire will get someone killed, seen it happen, I have also seen weapons ready save the day. In the civilian world you MUST prepare for the worst, if you can not rack your pistol while fending off one or more badguys (and it will happen, badguys are 3D and not stapled to a target board at known ranges..) You are dead, and just gave the badguy more to carry in the form of your weapon, if you have family or friends with you they just might be killed by your weapon.

When you decide to carry a lethal weapon it aint no joke kids! Violence of action is all you will have when it comes time to be lethal, and you better do it without hesitation or adding non tactical movement by NEEDING to charge you weapon you should have already charged. It would kinda be like only locking your doors after the news reported multiple murders in your neighborhood. You have locks and you probably use them, so why would anyone NOT load their weapon they have the right to carry and defend themselves and others?
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Old February 22, 2008, 03:08 PM   #64
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I do not think imaginary scenerios really ever convince anyone of anything.

I think it just comes down to what level of preparedness you want to be at during the day.

Do you want to simply be prepared for the extremely unlikely (almost negligent) chance you will ever need a firearm or do you want to take the next step and be prepared for the even less likely (almost nonexistent) chance you will be in a split second situation where you only have one hand and no time?

By carrying a gun at all you have already shown a desire to be prepared for the unlikely, now you just have to decide how far you want to run with that mindset.

Chances are (like probably 99.999%) you will never know whether you made the right choice regardless of which way you choose to go.
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Old February 22, 2008, 03:14 PM   #65
tackdriver
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Quote:
That was a course at a range.
Thanks, BB.

Quote:
Do I drop the only thing that matters to me in this world?
Babies are remarkably resiliant. I'd rather see a baby with a couple of scrapes than leave the kid in the line of fire.

I'm writing a story right now about a guy who drove head-on into a family of three. He was going 70mph+. They were going at least 35. We're talking about the kind of crash where the explosion melts the paints off the cars. The DRUNK driver who ran into them and mom in the second car were DOA. Dad hung on for a few hours.

The baby had a nosebleed.
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Old February 22, 2008, 03:18 PM   #66
Glenn E. Meyer
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I'm bored now! There have probably been 75000 posts over the years on unchambered carry. It's always

1. ND
2. Can't fight quick enough in a blitz

Worry about one and the other side stinks.

--- My view is centered on having the arm out of action. Small but finite risk as I did go through a period like that. Thus, no unchambered for me.

There are no new takes or new arguments.
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Old February 22, 2008, 03:18 PM   #67
Boris Bush
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Chances are (like probably 99.999%) you will never know whether you made the right choice regardless of which way you choose to go.
playboypenguin

The thing is you WILL know if YOU made the right choice when it is over. I never got anyone killed (goodguys) by makeing a bad decision! I have thought "if maybe we would have... this or that, If I would have watched that window instead of the ally.

If you get yourself killed becaused of a bad desision, then who realy cares, if you (get someone) kill(ed) because of a stupid decision and live the rest of your life clear of guilt, then you are less than human.. I do not mean you penguin, I am talking to anyone that would halfa$$ carrying a letal weapon to the point it might jeopardize the welfare of others. Just an opinion.
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Old February 22, 2008, 03:25 PM   #68
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The thing is you WILL know if YOU made the right choice when it is over.
When what is over? An imaginary scenerio in which you will never actually find yourself?

Like I said, a situation where you will ever have to draw your gun will probably never happen...one where you have to draw and shoot instantly with only one hand available is a one in a million chance.
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Old February 22, 2008, 03:36 PM   #69
Boris Bush
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Playboypenguin

When what is over?

Some here have been there done that. What I wrote about is NOT a "scenario". People not a target at the range would have lived if I thats ME could have had 10 more eyes to watch EVERY window, door and ally that day.

I done that, now that I am back maybe what I did and the training I will pass on will save someone someday. thats how I look at it now..
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Old February 22, 2008, 03:40 PM   #70
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I done that, now that I am back maybe what I did and the training I will pass on will save someone someday. thats how I look at it now..
Still a one in a million chance even if the story is true and it changes nothing about my statement.
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Old February 22, 2008, 03:44 PM   #71
Boris Bush
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I need not convince anyone of truth. If you are in the northwest area where I am, then you will see me at point defiance zoo with me wife and kids, it is far too nice to waste my extra halfday off inside.

chamber loaded.....
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Old February 22, 2008, 05:25 PM   #72
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We actually had a course at the gun club a few years back that had the shooter fire two separate strings of fire. The course of fire was identical except for the fact that one string started chamber empty and the other started chamber loaded. The average difference in time to first shot was less than .20 second.
And those were all 2 handed presentations.

You aren't going to be able to draw from concealment and one-handed rack the slide and be close to or faster than not racking the slide.
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Old February 22, 2008, 07:46 PM   #73
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A lot depends on why you're CCWing...I think many posters here (my .02) have a heightened sense of crime and being jumped or suddenly attacked, that's partially because SHTF discussions are forbidden. But there's lots of reasons to CCW sometimes besides perceiving you'rein a war zone...I don't live my life in condition orange, my choice. I've been jumped and dealt with without having to use a gun, I'm lucky, I usually can see something coming, or not go where I shouldn't. I don't CCW to go to WaWa. I just want to be able to stick a gun in my waistband when I want to transport it and not have to separate ammo and weapon in the car, and also carry during the next prolonged power outage or natural disaster.

I keep all my guns unchambered until I'm ready to fire or feel the need becoming imminent. I don't have to worry about practicing with different safety setups. Unless you're LE or military or you've chosen to be in a really bad place, the odds of being suddenly attacked by a determined killer are much less statistically than the safety and existential implications of habitually living life with loaded and cocked mentality everywhere you go.

It's the same "you've got to have every edge possible" mentality. One posts that they occasionally carry unchambered, some folks go nuts, it violates group norms, like admitting using anything less than .40 cal for self-defense rounds, or not using the latest high-tech HP round....

Given the statistics, carrying unchambered is a viable option for most civilians not in hot zone.
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Old February 22, 2008, 08:00 PM   #74
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Playboy has the right idea.
We all love to talk about the "ultimate" response to a threat, but , lets face it, the majority of us will never be in a situation where a couple tenths of a second will make any difference at all.
I think, more than time to first shot, its more reasonable to look at time to 3 or more shots on target.
Ive never timed it but i dont think rackin as part of the draw slows me down any.
JMHO
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Old February 22, 2008, 08:21 PM   #75
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Given the statistics, carrying unchambered is a viable option for most civilians not in hot zone.
"Given the statistics" which say that the vast majority of self-defense gun uses do not even require that the gun is fired, it is hard to argue with that. However, it's not often you see people advocating that it's a viable option to carry an unloaded gun or a fake gun based on statistics--although it's certainly a valid an argument "for most civilians not in hot zone" if all we consider are the statistics.
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