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Old March 15, 2008, 11:29 PM   #51
Bogie
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Sigh.

Is that the most intelligent discourse you can offer?

You really wanna fight an old fat crippled up vet? How civilized.

Glad you had a bunch of alleged hard chargers in your company, but one of the reasons the Pentagon went with self-loading rifles as opposed to the more accurate bolt actions was that a lot of soldiers don't aim. And a lot of them do not want to take someone else's life - regardless of what they may say in a barracks atmosphere. It's part of human nature, and it's one of the hardest parts of training.

And that's held true from WWII through the present. The guys with stars are happy when we get a lot of lead in the air, because they figure at least something will hit. Read a little history.

In my experience, they sorta went snap/bang, and you could feel the things beating up on the sound barrier...

The poor American slob, doing his best to soldier on, has been one of my heroes since youth. However, I know, from personal experience, that he doesn't look like Superman. Not even on a good day...

http://www.stripes.com/02/nov02/maul...s/_maul16.html
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Old March 16, 2008, 09:54 AM   #52
Shadow1198
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Uhhh...... The reason we went to self loading rifles was because they became a reality/new technology back around the turn of the century, and if we didn't move in that direction other nations surely would which would be an advantage for them and disadvantage for us. Fire superiority is why.

Bore snakes work, some of you don't like them, I do. Lets just leave it at that.
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Old March 16, 2008, 10:16 AM   #53
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I'm bored reading halfway through the thread but wanted to post something that may prove to be helpful if it has not already been posted:

If you have .38/.357 revolvers and .40 cal. pistol, and BoreSnakes for each, for your .38/.357 revolvers you can use the .40 BoreSnake as a CHAMBER brush, while the bore is cleaned with the regular .38/.357 BoreSnake.
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Old March 16, 2008, 11:24 AM   #54
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"Fire Superiority" is just another way of saying "we can sling more lead in their direction than they can in ours.

The Pentagon is more concerned about reliability than about accuracy. Accuracy is for individuals. Reliability is for companies, battalions and brigades. But it's also nice if the soldier doesn't dump his whole ammo load in the first minute of a conflict - so they introduced a rate of fire limiter in the form of the three-round burst mechanism.

Like I said - Bore snakes and Otis dealies have their place. A quick field decrud. But they will NEVER substitute for a decent cleaning.
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Old March 16, 2008, 01:33 PM   #55
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I don't think it ever was the intention of the makers of the BoreSnake that it would take the place of a decent or thorough cleaning.

I think BoreSnakes do serve a very useful purpose-I certainly do not clean my revolvers, autos or rifles as frequently and there appears to be no adverse effect. Saves a LOT of time.

Let's face it, most people don't shoot competition.

I've dry-fired my new 442 over 1000 times (with snap caps) and shot it about 250 times. I have not cleaned it yet.

Ran the .38 BoreSnake through the bore a few times; ran the .40 BS through the chambers once or twice. Put a little Rem Oil on the cylinder stop and ejector and where face of cylinder meets yoke. That is about it. Gun doesn't even look dirty-despite LSWC, mostly.
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Old March 16, 2008, 01:44 PM   #56
5whiskey
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To everyone on TFL I want to apologize for my last post. That was un-called for and I was out of line. Not to mention that isn't exactly how God wants me to treat other people.

Bogie, that apology also extends to you. I don't like giving excuses, I'd rather just say I screwed up and should learn from the experience so that I may not do it again. I should not have resorted to personal insults, and I ask your forgiveness. I'm still miffed over a couple of your comments, but it's my job to forgive along with asking forgiveness.

My basic interpretation of you post tells me that you view the average Soldier/Marine to be a bumbling fellow who doesn't have the coordination to make his training effective. That may not be what you wanted to present, but thats how I took it. Yes, there are morons in the military (imagine that)... but the beauty of having morons is there are hundreds of alternatives such as company clerk, cook, S-shop positions, etc. that keep those morons where they belong... inside the wire. The average Soldier/Marine who leaves the wire is not larger than life... but not exactly Gomer Pyle either. Contrary to your comments, the ones that can aim and shoot effectively usually outnumber the ones that we want to stay in the truck as a driver when we do a hard hit.

I obviously retract my comment on fighting. That was immature and stupid (not ignorant, just stupid). On shooting with you... well if I ever make it to misery I may take you up, though I don't have the money to wager. BTW, I'm sure your a good bench shooter, but there is always someone that is better no matter what. I measure <.5 moa groups myself for sport these days. That's not from a bench though. No I don't use a boresnake on that rifle. Just because it makes no sense to use a boresnake on a bench rifle when you easily have the option of one-piece rods, doesn't mean that they can't be used when appropriate. I do not support the thought process that cleaning with a boresnake will turn a .5 moa rifle into a 1.5 moa rifle. I won't argue that constant use of a boresnake could potentially open up your group from .27 to .35 on the bench. My argument is that .08 moa doesn't matter unless you are competing. While competition with a precision rifle is dandy, that isn't the primary reason for their existence.

Finally... "Gasp" a 1 moa rifle!!! I would throw that on the scrap heap!!!

Wow... just wow. That's your standard and that's fine, but that 1 moa rifle can be lethal at 1000 yds. BTW, just because 1 moa is the minimum standard for the M40 doesn't mean that most or many of them shoot that loose. Most of them are consistent half minute rifles. 1 moa is just the minimum standard.

Again my apologies, but that still doesn't mean that I don't think you're dead wrong...
Cheers,
Joey
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Old March 16, 2008, 02:20 PM   #57
Bogie
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Hey, ain't nothin' but a thing...

Keep in mind that your 1MOA rifle in optimum conditions can pop that 11" group.

Say you misread the wind, and that results in -the- shot going 6" out the side of that 11" "circle?"

Still some great shooting, but you just grazed the Colonel's ribs, rather than punched him center mass.

Now, if your rifle will shoot 1/2 MOA, you're starting with a platform that is capable of 6" accuracy, in theory, at a K... Your puff of wind is still going to blow the round 6" out of the group, but since the group is smaller, you're gonna punch some ribs and put the Colonel in the hospital, and out of the fight.

IMHO, do everything you can to maintain your weapon in optimum conditions. A bore snake's field expedient. That's it. and given the way they're used, and the crud that gets embedded, will likely eventually cause crown wear - just a tiny imperfection gets magnified downrange.

And you want to eliminate as many variable as you can. I've got a rifle that'll shoot a low-teen group. Thing is, I'm not really good enough with the wind to do that consistently. But as long as the rifle is shooting better than I can, I'm happy with it. When the rifle starts shooting in a range which is no longer competitive (i.e., above 0.25" capability), it's time for a new barrel.

Howzabout we shoot for Cold Frosty Beverages?
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Old March 21, 2008, 08:09 AM   #58
mikehaas
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With all due respect, I think the below snipers disagree with everything detractors here have said about bore snakes.

BTW, the guy dead center is Nick R. - he made the 1.3 mile "longest sniper shot ever" in Aghanistan a couple years ago. (you remember, right?) We just found out it was with a BORE-SNAKE SUPPORTED .50 BARRETT. Nick loves bore snakes - just click on the picture below to read his personal testimonial (sent to his Dad, forwarded to us). So much for 'bore snakes are only good for non-precision work...", eh?

More testimonials from other US warriors engaged in combat and their families are available here:
http://ProjectBoreSnake.org/testimonials.html
BTW, MANY are unit armorers responsible for maintenance on HORDES of weapons. Do you think they are qualified to form an opinion?

Also, there are easy solutions to the problems cited here...

(1) Breaking apart in barrel - use the right size bore snake. This only happens when someone tries, for example, to use a .35 cal. bore snake in a .30 cal rifle because they are too cheap to buy the RIGHT bore snake.

(2) Grit collecting in the nylon - wind your bore snake up, put it in a sock and throw it in the laundry. CLEAN AS A WHISTLE!

Mike Haas
http://ProjectBoreSnake/ co-founder
http://AmmoGuide.com/
-------------------------------------------------

Just Received at Project Bore Snake!


http://projectboresnake.org/recon7snipers.html

Your TAX-DEDUCTIBLE donation will help us procure and send these items directly to a U.S. Soldier or Marine. You can also help by identifying a U.S. Soldier or Marine to receive a "Snake Kit" on our website.

We will send a kit OF EIGHT BORE SNAKES to any named soldier identified as currently serving in Iraq or Afghanistan.

http://ProjectBoreSnake.org/
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Old March 21, 2008, 10:45 AM   #59
snuffy
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Quote:
With all due respect, I think the below snipers disagree with everything detractors here have said about bore snakes.
"With all due respect", that was a mighty nice COMMERCIAL for bore snakes!

That said, I think that in the case of combat, or a remote hunting camp, where carrying a proper cleaning rod/kit would be nearly impossible, a bore snake would be an answer. Maybe the ONLY answer. I wish they had been around 20 years ago when we encountered a very rainy opening day deer hunt. The shotguns were soaked, I was more worried about the bores than the actions. I used a curtain rod from the cabin we stayed in and some paper napkins to dry the bores.

Actually this discussion has caused me to look into buying a couple to toss into my hunting kit just for a situation like the above.
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Old March 21, 2008, 12:39 PM   #60
mikehaas
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Quote:
"With all due respect", that was a mighty nice COMMERCIAL for bore snakes!
Excuse me, we don't sell anything, we don't make a penny. 100% of every donation goes to purchasing and shipping bore snakes. 0% goes to anything else. The website is donated, the labor is donated, the space is donated. We do not work for, "contract for" or take direction from any company. We have sent almost 24,000 bore snakes "over there", purchased thousands more at wholesale with donations, but when I need one personally, I buy retail (about $16) from my local Big 5 (or equivalent.)

Project Bore Snake is FOUR PEOPLE who bring together the corporate entities show on the graphic to help. Jim, his wife Judy, his daughter Karen and me. And BTW, the troops call bore snake "life savers."

So no, it was NO commercial, it was an appeal to get our fellow shooters to have some compassion for our servicemen and either DONATE or NOMINATE or BOTH. (It was also an attempt to correct some of the hideously incorrect information about bore snakes that has infected this thread.)

I can't comment on your ability to read what I've posted, understand what I've posted or how you will process and/or respond to it. Only you can provide us that evidence of what kind of person you are.

Mike
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Old March 21, 2008, 03:59 PM   #61
snuffy
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Dunno, it sounded like a commercial to me. As for you correcting "hideously incorrect information", That's YOUR oopsYOUR opinion. I have given my opinion on bore snakes based on common sense.

As for supporting the troops, how's having a son come home after having served in both theaters, now serving as a DI for reservists going "over there" soon.

As for my commitment to the troops, I'll send some $ to your org. As I said, in combat they would serve well, be compact, light and handy. If it matters, I'm a Vietnam era AF veteran, and as patriotic as can be.
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Old April 15, 2008, 12:03 AM   #62
snuffy
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Mike, all my respect to you! I just got an e-mail from project boresnake, because I sent you/them a contribution. Keep up the good work. That was some story fox news shot of you guys, and Judy too!

I had a chance to talk to my son just recently. I asked him if anybody was using bore snakes in Afghanistan. He said they sure were! Also the otis system. They were mainly used while outside the "wire", if their weapons had been fired. Major cleaning always took place while inside the wire, but a quick cleaning between fire fights while on patrol.
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Old April 17, 2008, 03:11 PM   #63
parrothead2581
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They're fine for a quick clean or range use. For true cleaning, nothing beats patches and a rod.

The cloth can and likely will break down over time. Having one get lodged in your barrel will be no fun.
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Old April 18, 2008, 03:21 PM   #64
Recon7
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those guys totally stole my name.

funny I didn't run into them actually, I was just over in laghman Provence around the same time

and just to stay on topic, yeah, boresnakes rock.
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