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Old March 10, 2008, 11:42 PM   #26
5whiskey
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For most people that read this... I would probably not use a boresnake in your sit.

Boresnakes (and otis) are excellent field cleaning tools. OTIS were issued for M40s in our Bt last time I was there. Amazing how everyone swears that "you can't use anything other than a brass or nylon coated one piece rod for a precision rifle..." but M40s (or any other military issued weapon) are cleaned to death with OTIS kits and 240 punch rods, yet they still hold their serviceable equipment required 1 moa.

For normal use, because I'm not deployed for 9 months or in the field for 3 weeks at a time anymore, I use the a 1 piece cleaning rod because It's of no burden to me. I do have a boresnake thats packed in my bugout kit though. Should Mexico invade (that's supposed to be a joke) and we are called to defend the homeland (finally) then I will have an effective field expedient tool to clean the bore of my rifle.

Boresnakes are not the worst thing you can do to your rifle barrel. Lack of cleaning and allowing the carbon/moisture/copper fouling to corrode your barrel is. Further, I fail to see how a thick nylon rope with a brush built into it will damage the crown of a rifle anymore than a cleaning rod with a brush, or a bullet for that matter. Especially if you punch the bore correctly (from the breech, not the muzzle).

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Old March 10, 2008, 11:52 PM   #27
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When I shoot the gun I'm carrying at the range, I find the bore snake extremely useful in cleaning the carbon out of the chamber and shinning up the feed ramp before the trip home--- where I'll clean it in the usual manner. It's a field tool.
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Old March 11, 2008, 07:09 AM   #28
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Greatest thing since sliced bread. As for abrasives, keep it clean. Since the correct size is larger than the bore, it will maintain contact with the barrel throught the pass through.
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Old March 12, 2008, 09:13 AM   #29
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Some of you guys make me laugh. It is a physical impossibility for nylon to wear away at a STEEL barrel UNLESS it's under a severe amount of force/pressure. I'm talking severe pressure as in well past anything achievable by a human being. It's just not gonna happen. Consider water. It can be used to cut tough material like steel, though it generally requires 30,000psi or more to do so. Bore Snakes work well for their intended purpose (a quick and easy way to clean). I use them about 80-90% of the time and a regular rod/brush/patch combo the other ~10% of the time. I usually shoot once a week or every other week and will use the BS after each time, and maybe once a month I'll use a rod/brush/patch combo to get that last ~5% of fouling out of the barrel. I'm not wasting my time breaking out the cleaning kit and assembling components every single week just because I put a few rounds down range when a few seconds will get me a few passes with a Bore Snake that will effectively clear out 80-90% of the debris/fouling.
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Old March 12, 2008, 10:14 AM   #30
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Further I wanted to clarify my choice to use a cleaning rod vs. a boresnake. I was refering primarily to cleaning the bore of my .270 savage. I chopped the rifle up, rebarreled it, lapped the bolt lugs, polished the bolt, and all of that crazy stuff myself on the rifle. I also did a bondo stock reshape job. It isn't the prettiest or the most accurate in the world, but it consistantly shoots .75 moa with cheap factory federal powershoks. I am proud of it therefore I do all of the voodoo rituals to preserve that accuracy. Does it make a difference? Probably not a darn bit, but I do it anyway just in case

For my AR15, all I use is a boresnake. I may punchrod clean it 2 or 3 times a year. So when I was saying the majority of the GP shouldn't use boresnakes... I take that back. If we're referring to non-precision rifles used for home defense, plinking, hunting, etc... well I may would break out the outers and punch rods 3 times a year or so. The rest of the time would get snaked. Sorry for the misinformation the first post gents...

Cheers,
J
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Old March 12, 2008, 02:18 PM   #31
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Quote:
Shadow1198 Some of you guys make me laugh. It is a physical impossibility for nylon to wear away at a STEEL barrel UNLESS it's under a severe amount of force/pressure.
Then explain why fishing rod guides are now mostly made of ceramic? The old STEEL guides would be grooved by the nylon line,(monofilament).

Here's my method; A one piece mylar coated rod, used WITH a bore guide, cleaned from the breech, using phosphor bronze brushes and caliber specific jags/patches. A good solvent of your choice,(I use wipeout), followed by lightly oiling.

More rifles have been damaged by improper cleaning than by leaving them dirty. Modern fire arms just don't need to be cleaned as often as most people do.
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Old March 12, 2008, 03:27 PM   #32
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I use bore snakes for .22 rimfires which seldom leave copper fouling in significant quantities and occasionally for my centerfire firearms. The centerfires get a good brushing on a regular basis with a quality brush/solvent and a good rod.

As long as you keep the bore snake clean it will not cause undue wear on the rifle bore. Modern powders and barrels are much better than they were 50 years ago. Powders burn cleaner then before and barrels are made of better steel.


For what it is worth, concerning fishing rods: I troll Lake Ontario with braided steel wire on my dipsy rods. Everyone and his brother told me that my ceramic rod guides would be worn out in a short order. I even bought twilli tips for the rods but never installed them, I figured I would install them once the factory tips wore out...


Three seasons later the guides are still fine.....LOL....after hundreds of hours of seven strand stainless wire rubbing on the guides.

The twilli tips are still sitting on my workbench where I left them in 2005.
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Old March 12, 2008, 03:42 PM   #33
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Then explain why fishing rod guides are now mostly made of ceramic? The old STEEL guides would be grooved by the nylon line,(monofilament).
That is completely out of context with this conversation. You're refering to reels with I would say at least 100' of line, being constantly thrown and reeled back in, fighting fish which puts a small portion of stress, and... here's the kicker... it takes tens of thousands of casts with the line rubbing a very small concentrated area to make a little groove. I think most people here are talking about snaking a barrel 5 times or so a couple of times a month or less.

Something that was designed to withstand 30,000+ lbs of pressure, to include a precise fitting copper coated projectile traveling with tremendous friction at speeds of 2800 fps, isn't going to wear out because we pulled a piece of loose-mesh nylon rope with a brush built into it down the bore once in awhile.

Quote:
More rifles have been damaged by improper cleaning than by leaving them dirty. Modern fire arms just don't need to be cleaned as often as most people do.
I would say you are just plain wrong... but I'm not sure how many individuals are out there that dig and gouge in their chambers and punch from the muzzle with crappy fitting 3 piece rod sets. THAT can damage a rifle over time. More rifles have suffer accuracy problems from pitted rust and copper fouling from 10 years ago, than have been ruined by running a boresnake through the rifle.
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Old March 13, 2008, 03:59 AM   #34
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Actually, Snuffy's right. The stuff that gets embedded in the fibers tears stuff up.

Thing is, we're not really talking about rifles that are all that accurate to start with, so you're probably not going to notice anything. Military rifles are built more with reliability than accuracy in mind.

I think it'd be okay to get general crud out but I'd just run it through once. Ain't gonna be all that much cleaner with a few times.

There's really no substitute for a bore guide and good one piece rod, with the proper solvent.
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Old March 13, 2008, 12:31 PM   #35
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The most important aspect of SAFELY cleaning any barrel with rifling is to keep the cleaning patch and jag or brush centered in the bore. So that nothing BUT the patch or brush touches the rifling. That means the rod , rope, string, or whatever is pushing/pulling those cleaners does not touch the bore.

There's two areas of a barrel that are critical to accuracy. The crown and the throat. The crown is THE most critical. Wear on one side of the crown will quickly show up on the target.

Now you can't tell me that in pulling that rope while holding onto the rifle, you are keeping it centered in the muzzle. Or that the rope isn't dragging on the throat before the brush/patch enters the bore.

Okay, I'll admit that the nylon rope probably won't wear much on barrel steel. What I'm concerned about is the fine dirt that gets embedded in the weave of the rope being dragged over the extreme edge of the crown. Keeping that rope clean is nearly impossible. Even if it were totally clean, there can be abrasives in the barrel after a hunt. Ever see what wind does to a plowed field? Soil is nothing but tiny chunks of rock.

As far as copper fouling causing rust, well prove it to me. Nothing we shoot these days is corrosive. Unless we go out of our way to load black powder in a modern firearm. Yes, a barrel left uncleaned, then exposed to high humidity can rust if not oiled. BUT taking a bore snake or Otis kit with you to a range, so that you can clean BEFORE heading home makes no sense. Unless, of course, you don't intend to clean as soon as you get home. The a quick pass with an oiled patch would make sense.
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Old March 13, 2008, 01:04 PM   #36
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Quote:
There's two areas of a barrel that are critical to accuracy. The crown and the throat. The crown is THE most critical. Wear on one side of the crown will quickly show up on the target.
Agreed.

Quote:
Keeping that rope clean is nearly impossible. Even if it were totally clean, there can be abrasives in the barrel after a hunt. Ever see what wind does to a plowed field? Soil is nothing but tiny chunks of rock.
Moot point. What stops that cleaning patch you put on the jag, or the projectile when you fire the rifle, or the bore brush will push that tiny chunk of rock just as a bore snake will.

Quote:
As far as copper fouling causing rust, well prove it to me. Nothing we shoot these days is corrosive.
I agree copper or carbon fouling doesn't cause rust. Note I said "pitted rust AND copper fouling from 10 years ago". Rust doesn't come from the copper fouling, it comes from having a dry (non clp) bore in high humidity or getting your rifle wet. It is a well known fact that rust and copper fouling do have one thing in common... they don't get easier to clean over time. Never mind I just looked at the last part of your statement their and we're saying the same thing...

Heres the point... 2nd Bt, 8th Marines has had the same M40s for over 5 years now. There have been alot of passes with otis kits and boresnakes, and those rifles still hold their required 1 moa. If I'm at home with my personal rifle I will use the punch rod. If it's not a bother to do it the "right" way, then do so. In the field with field grade rifles, then a boresnake will do just fine.
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Old March 13, 2008, 01:08 PM   #37
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On several occasions I have seen bore snakes breaking...at both ends. Makes for an interesting afternoon trying to remove the remainder of the bore snake from the barrel bore. I refuse to use them.
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Old March 13, 2008, 07:54 PM   #38
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What happens when a rod is pushed through the bore and the brush or patch holder or jag clears the muzzle. The rod via gravity will be pulled towards the center of the earth. During this process the rod will be stopped by the muzzle. Whatever that rod is made of it will grind dirt into the bore. If you use a vice and the rod contacts the muzzle on the same spot every time it clears the muzzle, the repetition of overcleaning in this manner will probably cause more damage than a bore snake would.

I have used a boresnake for so long and so much as a civilian and at war, that no amount of this or that theory will change the mind of those that know.
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Old March 13, 2008, 09:37 PM   #39
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those rifles still hold their required 1 moa
If I had a rifle that was only capable of 1 MOA, it'd go in the cheap sheet-metal safe with the surplus stuff...

There are PROPER ways to clean rifles. And there are FIELD EXPEDIENT ways to clean rifles. Yeah, the bore snake is all tacticool, and everything, and I suppose that one would be okay with limited use, but all you guys who are saying that it, and the Otis bit, are the end-all-be-all of rifle cleaning are mistaken.

Frankly, the average military rifle doesn't -need- MOA accuracy. The poor slobs who are carrying them just aren't that good.

HOWEVER, if I was an armorer and I had an M40/21/whatever in my care, and it was being handed to someone they call a "sniper," I'd be on the phone to Shilen if it handed me anything less than 0.5 MOA.

You care for your gear, and your gear cares for you.

Joe Grunt doesn't need MOA at 75 yards. Sam Sniper needs a heckuva lot better than that at 500.

And I -will- shoot accuracy with you for money.
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Old March 14, 2008, 12:11 AM   #40
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Moot point. What stops that cleaning patch you put on the jag, or the projectile when you fire the rifle, or the bore brush will push that tiny chunk of rock just as a bore snake will.
No, it's not, moot point that is. The difference is that the solid cleaning rod is pushing a patch/jag/brush through a barrel, with the tip hardware IN FRONT OF the rest of the rod. A bore snake must be dropped down the barrel AHEAD OF the patch or brush. That's when it can pick up abrasives already in the barrel. Those abrasive bits can never reliably be cleaned from the rope, so they're there to wear the rifling/crown from then on.

Quote:
What happens when a rod is pushed through the bore and the brush or patch holder or jag clears the muzzle.
The best instructions I've read say to not let that happen. How? You carefully push the first patch to the end of the barrel, then mark the rod where it enters the bore guide. Patches are changed after coming out of the bore guide. A brush has to come out of the barrel further to let the bristles reverse.
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Old March 14, 2008, 07:15 AM   #41
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Anti-Boresnake guys have yet to prove they destroy accuracy. Over a long peroid of time and in actual use here and half way around the world, my M4 has had thousands of rounds through it and more than 1000 passes of a boresnake.

It still shoots exactly like it did when I first got it. Right smack in the middle of 1-2 MOA. 1.2-1.7 to be exact.

Sorry guys, you will have a hard time telling the end users that it will destroy accuracy. It just doesn't happen.

As for some coments made about our soldiers. You have no clue what war is like, obviously. I think of my brothers on the memorials and think of someone carving slob next to their name. typing it here is just one step away from doing exactly that.

bye bye bogie. I love ignore lists...........
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Old March 14, 2008, 08:22 AM   #42
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Anti-Boresnake guys have yet to prove they destroy accuracy. Over a long peroid of time and in actual use here and half way around the world, my M4 has had thousands of rounds through it and more than 1000 passes of a boresnake.
I never said that bore snakes destroy accuracy. I said they are a bear to get out when they break. I will stick to the right way of cleaning a bore.
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Old March 14, 2008, 09:56 AM   #43
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Creature

The only way I could see a boresnake beaking off in a bore is if the wrong size is used. Like a .22 in a .177, .35 down a .308, and so on.

EVERY shooter, hunter I know owns at least one bore snake and the thousands of combined pass through all them bores have yet to cause a broken boresnake.

I have however seen cleaning rods break mid bore, and come unscrewed mid bore. Now I know you guys use a one piece rod, but the vast majority of people do not.

I am very careful when I clean my weapons, and have yet to have any method fail me. Both methods fail every now and then. Nothing is 100% but inspecting your equipment before and after use goes a long way to stop problems before they begin. I have more than one time had to delay cleaning because I had to go to the shop and get new cleaning parts because of parts I wouldn't put in my bore.
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Old March 14, 2008, 09:56 AM   #44
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This is getting as bad as the 9mm vs 45 ACP threads.

Quote:
Those abrasive bits can never reliably be cleaned from the rope, so they're there to wear the rifling/crown from then on.
Reference to the underlined section above?


kgpcr,

As you can see we who consider ourselves students-of-the-gun have varied perspectives on the Bore Snake product but what are the firearms aficionados if not a bunch free thinkers. I didn't think to mention this in my original reply but you might want to generate a list of questions based on this thread and submit them to the manufacturer. If and when they reply I for one would hope you share that feedback with us.


Best,

S-
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Old March 14, 2008, 03:35 PM   #45
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Well, since Boris knows all about rifle accuracy and soldiering and all that, it's a shame he's not going to read this...

I shoot benchrest. If bore snakes were effective in cleaning a rifle, they'd be used. We've got -maybe- a half hour to clean -and- precision-handload the rounds for our next record target. And some matches run faster - I think the directors are trying to get home faster...

As for referring to the poor slobs who schlep the rifles in the field, many of whom can't shoot worth a darn, even if their uniforms do have combat infantry badges? I give you luminaries such as Ernie Pyle, and Bill Mauldin as literary references. Many soldiers, even after intensive training, just kinda point in the general direction of kinda sorta where they think the bad guys might be. That's why the guys in the Pentagon seem to think that having the ability to throw a whole lot of bullets is a good thing. They're not all that concerned with aiming or accuracy - they're concerned with reliability. Yeah, there's some marksmen. Guys who actually aim. But for every one of those, you're gonna find a bunch who are of the "hold the thing and keep cranking that finger until you run out of bursts" school of thinking... And you're also going to have folks out there who do not want to... who cannot... kill. But they're still there.

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And I'll gladly shoot with him for money.
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Old March 14, 2008, 06:14 PM   #46
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Quote:
The only way I could see a boresnake beaking off in a bore is if the wrong size is used. Like a .22 in a .177, .35 down a .308, and so on.
Every breakage I have witnessed was the correct caliber bore snake. I am not sure what caused the breakage but my guess is that the bore snake was slowly degraded over time by the bore cleaners that were used, although they are supposed to be solvent safe. Kinda like rubber bands left in the sun for too long.

Last edited by Creature; March 15, 2008 at 01:10 PM.
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Old March 15, 2008, 04:20 PM   #47
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:barf:

Somehow guys and gals have been able to clean their guns perfectly well for many decades with a rod, patches and a couple of attachments like a brush and jag.

Bore $nakes--a clever way to bore a hole into one's wallet and take the $$$ from you. Great way for gun shops to make money on something that unfortunately doesn't do as good a job on your gun barrel as the old-fashioned cleaning rod. Someone cleans up and that someone ain't you!
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Old March 15, 2008, 06:27 PM   #48
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Well, they have their place... If I was in the outer boonies, and wanted to do a quick de-major-crud, one pass gets the larger chunks gone. And they're nice for shotguns between sets, quick decruds between sets with handguns, etc., etc... But I think that too many folks have decided that since they're tacticool, they are now the end-all and be-all for rifle cleaning. They're a decent stopgap substitute, but that's all they are. A substitute until the soldier can properly clean the weapon.

And I'll bet any armorer will back that up.

Someone ask that Boris fellow for me if he wants to put some $$ where his typing fingers is...
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Old March 15, 2008, 08:20 PM   #49
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Apropos posts regarding nylon scratching steel. I do not think it is the nylon (on a brush or a fishing line) that can abrade metal, rather it is particles of grit on the line or brush that do the damage.
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Old March 15, 2008, 10:54 PM   #50
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Bogie...

I'm basically posting to say kiss my #$%.

I'm happy you shoot benchrest. Have fun doing so.

Quote:
If I had a rifle that was only capable of 1 MOA, it'd go in the cheap sheet-metal safe with the surplus stuff...
1 moa at 1000 yds (which is a USMC snipers qualification distance) Equals being able to hit an 11" ring. Last time I looked, the vitals of a human is bigger than 11". 1 moa is all an M40 is required to hold to be serviceable. If you would chuck it in the sheet metal pile... well you would go to war without a gun.

Plus you know what??? I won't shoot with you for money, but I will go against you in a sniper contest any time you please. About 1/100 of being a sniper is understanding the round and pulling the trigger consistently. Mind you we don't have the "250 yd line", or LRFs. We actually need to know how to use the mil reticle to range find and make a 1st round shot, along with knowing how to stalk, knowing many other things that pertain to infantry also (radio, basic reporting, CFF, CAS, controlling the UAVS, etc.), not sleeping for 3 days, laying in your own **** and S*%t, knowing how to not be comprimised, that sort of stuff.

Quote:
But for every one of those, you're gonna find a bunch who are of the "hold the thing and keep cranking that finger until you run out of bursts" school of thinking...
I'm telling you flat out you are wrong. Maybe you were in the service, I don't know. I do know you weren't in war with infantry Marines in my company. Everyone in my squad, save for 2, were very reliable and very capable marksmen. BTW, It's easy to shoot at paper when you aren't getting shoot at dickhead. You try hearing an AK burst fly by you (BTW bullets don't go "zing") and shooting at the muzzle flash.

1 moa is lethal at 1000 yds. A boresnake will not turn a .5 moa rifle into a 1 moa rifle in 5 passes or 500 passes. If you care so much about a bench competition that you slander the men that go and get shot at daily to make yourself feel good, then you can kiss my arse.

BTW, I changed my mind. I will shoot with you for money if we get to double down on fighting.
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