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Old February 8, 2008, 11:45 AM   #1
yomama
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"It's the Police!"

Ok, let me start by saying my motivations for this post are that I constantly see on the news that in home invasions, perps yell, "It's the Police!" ect....

They come in all black, and one could easily interpret them as legitamate police.

So what is the responsible action for a homeowner to take as the door is being kicked in, and a few guys are yelling they are the police and to get down?
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Old February 8, 2008, 11:59 AM   #2
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if it's more then 2 or 3 and they have cars with flashing lights on them, I'd probably do what they said. You could always try and call 911, if you where safe to do so, just to try and confirm, but I'll tell you most cops are not going to have much sympathy for the "I didn't know you where the law" storie as you get thrown down on the floor with the knee to your back.
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Old February 8, 2008, 12:26 PM   #3
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Even if they *are* police, if they don't serve a warrant they are home invaders and IMHO should be dealt with accordingly. (the law of course disagrees with me on that point.) But it's probably a moot point because they have the drop on you.

That's why you need layers of defense. Reinforced wooden doors with massive deadbolts that will take some time to breach. Dogs. Outdoor lights. Things to give you time to react.
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Old February 8, 2008, 04:03 PM   #4
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The real cops SHOULD have "POLICE" markings that are very noticeable on vests, helmets, shields, and should be yelling "POlICE - SEARCH WARRANT"

A lot of tactical teams have gotten away from the black and have gone to OD green or camo uniforms so black isn't always an indication.

Unless there is a specific threat, most search warrant require officers to KNOCK and ANNOUNCE prior to entering.
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Old February 8, 2008, 05:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
The real cops SHOULD have "POLICE" markings that are very noticeable on vests, helmets, shields, and should be yelling "POlICE - SEARCH WARRANT"
True
Quote:
most search warrant require officers to KNOCK and ANNOUNCE prior to entering.
True again, but the time between knock and slam is about .000002 seconds.
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Old February 8, 2008, 08:34 PM   #6
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anyone can easily get black tackticle looking clothing with POLICE on it
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Old February 8, 2008, 09:41 PM   #7
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I would say 97% of the time when the police come knocking, its legitimate. Now, while caution is required if non-standard "procedure" is used (things that your police department wouldn't do), I am not all that worried about this issue in particular. Have a good day/night,
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Old February 8, 2008, 09:49 PM   #8
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1. Don't move
2. Pray that if its the bad guys, you don't get killed anyway
3. Pray that if its the good guys, you don't get killed anyway

With the overuse of SWAT teams for relatively minor drug warrants, and an increasing reliance on inherently unreliable informants with almost no oversight, botched raids happen all too often and innocent people do get killed. If you have a gun in your hand, you will almost certainly be killed no matter how reasonable it may be to assume it is not the police, but in fact the bad guys. I just started reading the following from the Cato Institute today - an excellent whitepaper on this issue.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/ba...paper_2006.pdf
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Old February 9, 2008, 01:03 AM   #9
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Guys, this one's been beat to death several times before, and it always seems to end up being either a political or cop bashing thread. See this thread as an example.

None the less, it's a valid subject with valid concerns. Let's see if we can keep this one from going South as well, OK?
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Old February 9, 2008, 01:52 AM   #10
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As far as the law is concerned, until you know that it is the police, it's a free fire zone for both sides. Completely irresponsible and any blame for these lay squarely on the police. It sucks when police get killed during these raids, but it is very hard to feel sympathy for them.
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Old February 9, 2008, 02:03 AM   #11
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TV show "To catch a Theif" (reality show, real ex-burglers) had an episode where they burgularized a house and eventually came across the homeowners LEO uniforms, I.D.'s, badges, hat badge, registered guns, etc. and laughed about it as they continued to loot. These items had a good black market value it was stated. The homeowner/officer was genuinely shaken by this when they returned his stuff.
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Old February 9, 2008, 03:11 AM   #12
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I'm a former federal agent who, by nature of the type enforcement we did, kicked a helluva lot of doors in during my time.

And no, I damn sure wasn't ATF--whom I don't even consider to be law enforcement.

Just from my experience and that of other agents I worked with, here are a few thoughts, advice, answers, etc. Bear in mind that I've been out of the jackbooted thug business for quite a while, so things may have changed.

Quote:
Ok, let me start by saying my motivations for this post are that I constantly see on the news that in home invasions, perps yell, "It's the Police!" ect....

They come in all black, and one could easily interpret them as legitamate police.

So what is the responsible action for a homeowner to take as the door is being kicked in, and a few guys are yelling they are the police and to get down?
The responsible action is to get yourself down on the flloor, in as non-threatening/non-hostile position as possible as quick as possible.

When we raided a home, we had to first verify the address against the tenants/owners/residents. Those Treasury boys have a history of kicking in wrong doors . . . Secondly, we would often call the house or have our CI call the house to verify that the occupants were home and available to be arrested.

We had some pretty serious training at both Quantico and some at FLETC on dynamic entries. Plus, in my office in Miami, the team I was on was made up of almost all ex-military guys who were either MP/SP, specop, etc. So we'd all had a LOT of prior training and actual experience in dynamic entries, crossing fire, etc etc.

When such a team kicks your door, they're going to move on you quick. Just by the weaponry they carry and the way they handle it, plus the authoritative tone of voice and the presence of an obvious team leader will tell you this is the real deal.

These two-bit thugs who dress up as cops and raid houses are bozos, carry questionable hardware, and have no obvious leader. Fat lot of good that does you if you're watching TV and half-dozing when your door comes flying off the hinges and people start screaming PO-LEECE!

But, going to a non-threatening position will 99-times out of a hundred help you more than it will hurt you. Remember: if the scumbag thugs kill you while looting your house, it just went from simple burglary/robbery to capital. And in Texas, you will die for your transgressions.

Quote:
Even if they *are* police, if they don't serve a warrant they are home invaders and IMHO should be dealt with accordingly. (the law of course disagrees with me on that point.) But it's probably a moot point because they have the drop on you.
Guess what? I didn't always need a warrant to kick in your door and arrest you. I could follow you from the scene of a dope buy that I watched you make or filmed you doing, call the rest of our crew in, and kick your door down while announcing who I am and who my partners were.

And if you tried to "deal with me accordingly," you'd lose in all sorts of bad ways, including the worst of ways that is permanent.

If you have done something wrong or you have warrants on you (be they for parking tickets or capital murder) or you owe the IRS money or you gave an STD to the Senator's significant other . . . and you've ignored all summons, calls, subpoenas and the other hundreds of ways local law enforcement gives you to comply and NOT get raided and jacked up . . . then don't be surprised if you get a very early morning visit that ends up very unpleasant.

As I've said repeatedly: "I'm amazed at the number of so-called gun owners who whine incessantly about not enforcing the existing laws that we have--then whine incessantly when we DO enforce them."

They told us at Quantico that if we wanted praise or gratitude for the job we were taking on, to quit and go join the Fire Department. They were right twenty something years ago, and they're still right today.

Quote:
That's why you need layers of defense. Reinforced wooden doors with massive deadbolts that will take some time to breach. Dogs. Outdoor lights. Things to give you time to react.
If you're talking about reacting to burglars or home invaders, I agree with you one hundred percent. If you're talking about reacting to legitimate law enforcement paying you a visit, I would wonder why you--specifically--are so paranoid.

I am not a huge fan of today's law enforcement and I have been openly critical of them at times here and elsewhere. BUT, I've also been in their shoes many, many times. I didn't see a lot of hands waving in the air volunteering to take my place in the armpits of Miami, Kingston, Mexico City, Detroit and other sewer-holes passing as cities when I turned in my badge and credentials.

Fact of the matter is, there is a lot of pure-D crap circulating about "you could be next" when it comes to having your door kicked in. Yep. You could. You could also be struck by lightning right after you cashed in your ten-million dollar winning lottery ticket in which Mother Mary appeared in a cloud of Unique smoke and gave you the numbers.

Odds are about the same. Arm and protect yourself from the criminals. Your odds of having to deal with them are a helluva lot higher than having to deal with law enforcement. Provided, that is, that you don't have outstanding warrants, tickets, etc. If you (generic you) do and you're ignoring them, then you're an idiot.

Quote:
The real cops SHOULD have "POLICE" markings that are very noticeable on vests, helmets, shields, and should be yelling "POlICE - SEARCH WARRANT"
My raid jacket was dark blue with yellow all-caps letters. It said POLICE on front and back, along with SPECIAL AGENT. It had the acronymn for my agency above the words SPECIAL AGENT. On the front, it had a replica of our shield. Only place you could get them was from our agency--and we had to sign all kinds of paperwork, receipts, etc for everything and anything we were issued or bought that had our agency's ID or acronymn on it.

Now, this was pre-internet days. I agree that it's probably all too easy to fake some raid jackets. But if you stop and think about it, it would also be even easier--and cheaper--to also fake a search/arrest warrant.

Quote:
A lot of tactical teams have gotten away from the black and have gone to OD green or camo uniforms so black isn't always an indication.
My normal "uniform" was a long ponytail, ugly beard, sometimes an eyepatch, a cowboy hat, old faded Levis with grease stains, some sort of a HD t-shirt and a leather vest. When it was time to invite ourselves into a scumbag's home, I dressed up and wore my best bullet-proof vest--which was black with white letters that said POLICE and then XXX and then SPECIAL AGENT, and of course, a replica of our shield.

I always wanted to look my best when I was inviting myself into my newest arrestee's home.

Quote:
Unless there is a specific threat, most search warrant require officers to KNOCK and ANNOUNCE prior to entering.
True back in my day. But like I said earlier, we usually called to ensure that someone was home--also worked to make sure we were at the right house as we used the reverse directory and cross-referenced the phone number with the address.

Don't know how the poor guys do it these days with everyone having a cell phone and a lot of people having a cell phone in lieu of a house phone.

AND . . . what I haven't seen mentioned here yet is the "severity" of the warrant. We used to call them "Level" warrants. A Level III barely warranted a knock before we were kicking doors, windows and getting in as fast as we could. That meant we were going after some bad, dangerous dudes.

Can't remember when the wrong home ever got raided on a three-warrant because we were also REQUIRED to maintain a minimum of twelve hours surveillance specifically ensure that we DIDN'T raid the wrong house.

When we'd do our level one warrants, half or more of the time, I'd knock on the door and announce, "XXX, we have a search warrant. Open up so we can talk please,"

We had ample identification and at that point, it was up to the occupants as to whether or not they wanted our visit to upgrade a level or two.


Quote:
1. Don't move
2. Pray that if its the bad guys, you don't get killed anyway
3. Pray that if its the good guys, you don't get killed anyway
If it's the good guys and your a good guy, ain't nothing wrong with praying--I do it everyday, myself--but why would you pray you don't get killed anyway?

Maybe I'm missing the hundreds, or even thousands or daily instances in which the police botch the raid, but go ahead and shoot the good guys anyways . . . you know, since they were in the neighborhood and it would only be the cops' side of the story to tell, and so on.

Good grief. And some gun owners wonder why some (even rank and file) police don't think they should have CCW?

Quote:
With the overuse of SWAT teams for relatively minor drug warrants, and an increasing reliance on inherently unreliable informants with almost no oversight, botched raids happen all too often
Shoulda stopped right there, because up to this point, you're spot-on correct.

Quote:
and innocent people do get killed. If you have a gun in your hand, you will almost certainly be killed no matter how reasonable it may be to assume it is not the police, but in fact the bad guys.
This is one-hundred percent horse you-know-what.

If'd I'd shot, let alone KILLED, every single person that had a gun pointed at me or who was brandishing a gun during the course of my LE duties, I'd have more blood on my hands than most two-bit African warlord dictators.

Now if you FIRE that gun at me, you just bought the farm, son.

When you raid a home, ala SWAT or SOG or SRU sytle, you have a thing called Rules of Engagement that you are required to go over before you even leave your staging area. And unless the target home or subject of the warrant has a known history of shooting at people, especially cops, every effort will be made to command him to PUT DOWN THE BLEEPING BLANKETY BLANKING GUN, NOW!!!!!

So where all these innocent people that are being killed so often by police because they're botching so many more raids these days than ever before?

Does it happen from time to time. Unfortunately it does. Any time is one time too many, no argument from me. But does it happen with the frequency that you are stating it does.

No.

Quote:
As far as the law is concerned, until you know that it is the police, it's a free fire zone for both sides. Completely irresponsible and any blame for these lay squarely on the police. It sucks when police get killed during these raids, but it is very hard to feel sympathy for them.
Wrong.

If I announce "POLICE-SPECIAL AGENT!!! GET YOUR HANDS UP, RIGHT NOW!!!" and you still point a weapon at me and then try to later use the line (assuming that you'd still be vertical and breathing, that is) that I didn't stop and show you my credentials or you couldn't get close enough to read my badge numbers (which were on the back of our badges), your defense IS NO defense.

Hey, you can still say that you "didn't know that I was REALLY the police--coulda bought that jacket anywhere, had my badge forged, anybody can grow their hair long, and hell, this is the South where EVERYONE has fancy guns."

You'd have a long time at Level three or four FCI to think about your position afterwards.

I strongly, strongly, strongly suggest you get MULTIPLE opinions from the prosecuting side on what you just wrote as fact before you go throwing it out like fact.

Folks, this is a forum that promotes the responsible ownership of firearms and prudent thought and planning when it comes to defending ourselves, loved ones and neighbors.

If you're going to bash the police, then do it with facts rather than conjecture, hearsay and opinion based upon emotion or "well, someone TOLD me" kind of stuff.

I was one. I'll criticize when and where I know for a fact that it's warranted. We can complaint about LE attitudes--as I do quite often--but we also need to look in the mirrors and make sure that it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black, ESPECIALLY in teh gun-owning community which has prided itself for decades and decades for being amongst the most patriotic, law-abiding and unselfish citizens this great nation has ever produced.

Most cops are hard-working men and women who truly believe in what they're doing. It's more than just a job. For many, they feel it is a calling.

For damn sure, it's a high-risk calling. A golf pro can have a bad shot and take a Mulli-whatever (I don't play golf, obviously). A cop has a bad shot and he/she is very likely done.

They get one chance.

Why make it any rougher? If you have outstanding matters that need taken care of, then take care of them. If you have scumbag neighbors next door who are into dope or stolen goods or whatever, then let the police know. Give them your name and your address and stress what your house looks like. All kinds of ways to minimize your already remotely slim chances of being greeted at O-dark-thirty by a bunch of black-clad cops.

Common sense, folks. Commons sense.

Jeff
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Old February 9, 2008, 06:15 AM   #13
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I read you post exasSeaRay Regardless of what you think, people that continue to bust down doors will continue to be shot by armed homeowners, and they will have nobody to blame but themselves.
Quote:
If you're talking about reacting to burglars or home invaders, I agree with you one hundred percent. If you're talking about reacting to legitimate law enforcement paying you a visit, I would wonder why you--specifically--are so paranoid.
Because law enforcement has become militarized. They are becoming the enemy. Police are knocking down doors, murdering innocent civilians and getting away with it. Read the CATO link below. Look at any of the articles that are being written and posted online, court cases filed, etc

Quote:
And if you tried to "deal with me accordingly," you'd lose in all sorts of bad ways, including the worst of ways that is permanent.
Yes indeed, CATO has a map documenting SOME of the cases of police negligence perpetrated by people like you. However people are fighting back. More and more police are being gunned down for invading peoples homes.

Quote:
When such a team kicks your door, they're going to move on you quick. Just by the weaponry they carry and the way they handle it, plus the authoritative tone of voice and the presence of an obvious team leader will tell you this is the real deal.
Yea, and me waking from a dead sleep am going to be in perfect mind to make that determination. Tactics that people like you get innocent people killed that is a DOCUMENTED FACT. Look at the link to CATO. How many more people must die before this insanity stops.

Quote:
The responsible action is to get yourself down on the flloor, in as non-threatening/non-hostile position as possible as quick as possible.
You know that people are not going to do that. You KNOW that more innocent people are going to die as a result of these actions. Yet people like you accept it as standard operating procedure.

It is sad that more innocent people and "police" are going to have to die before no-knocks are outlawed for everything except what they were originally intended for. Then we can go back to the days of presenting the warrants, entering th house with the door still on its hinges, and conduct the search in a civilized manner.

Quote:
I always wanted to look my best when I was inviting myself into my newest arrestee's home.
Such unbridled arrogance. It's no wonder people see the police more and more as an opponent and not a friend. No wonder there is growing criticism against people like you.

Quote:
As I've said repeatedly: "I'm amazed at the number of so-called gun owners who whine incessantly about not enforcing the existing laws that we have--then whine incessantly when we DO enforce them."
I don't complain about enforcing laws. However it is the WAY that they are enforced. The war on drugs has spilled over into the war on the American citizens. The police profit from the drug war even more than the drug dealers. Asset forfeiture laws ensure that police take whatever actions are needed to get as much $$$ as possible. The only reason police "need" to do a no-knock is so they can get that small baggie of pot/crack/meth/whatever so they seize can whatever they want.

Quote:
So where all these innocent people that are being killed so often by police because they're botching so many more raids these days than ever before?
Read the CATO link. Those are just the ones that they have found. Who knows how many others ended up like that 92-Year old woman in Atlanta. The one where police planted drugs to cover up their mistakes. They got caught, how many more police officers have gotten away with it? How many more people have been murdered and evidence planted to cover for police negligence? I guess that also answers your question about why people barricades their home from police. Is it really paranoia when it really is happening?

The War on Drugs is a dismal failure. It never can and never will succeed. We have forgotten the lessons of prohibition from the 1920s. We are simply repeating our failure. Thankfully groups like LEAP are trying to stop the insanity.
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Old February 9, 2008, 06:33 AM   #14
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Oh, I would think there are some homes that belongs to law abiding, with tiger pits right behind the front door. tiger in it and everything. I hope no hardass cop busts through THAT door !
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Old February 9, 2008, 09:07 AM   #15
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The vast majority of home invasions I see reported, are committed by druggies, against other druggies.
The odds of a criminal home invasion happening to a normal Citizen seem fairly remote.
The number of police raids on normal Citizens, those with clean records and no involvement by themselves, or family members in illegal activity, is also pretty darn remote.
To me, the discussion is about a 'non issue'
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Old February 9, 2008, 09:23 AM   #16
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This kind of thing happens all the time in the UK. "Cops" abduct people involved in banking or just very wealthy people access there home and steal money and other valuables or take the guy theyve just abducted to the abucteds place of work where he'll help them because theyve got his family held hostage.

So scenario time...

Its 2am in the morning. There people kicking your door in screaming "POLICE, POLICE" etc. Mr. Doe goes downstairs with a gun. If there still kicking at your door and there are no cop cars outside then youre probably being stung.

Police use the dawn raid concept. meaning they'll usually come between 4am and 7am. the former and latter being the earliest and latest times respectively.

How many people are there?
Where I live cops raiding a house will be in a group of six or more...

How long do are they taking to kick the door in?
Cops take 5 seconds to smash the door open normally. They dont have time to say "police" alot of times.
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Old February 9, 2008, 10:13 AM   #17
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If you're genuinely worried about having your home invaded, then why not employ a layered defense?
You can only sit in your easy chair with a shotgun in your lap for so long. Eventually, you'll need to take a shower, maybe go to work, cook, open up for the pizza guy... live.

If you want to not mistake the Police for the bad guys (and Sea Ray is right you are much more likely to have a criminal element invading) then why not install some motion detectors, a few web cams outside doors, etc.
The software for running multiple cams is pretty easy to figure out. Clearly you have a computer already.

Just being able to see outside your door in multiple angles is worth the cost. And, the cost is pretty minimal.

If you want to get fancy, you can tie it in to alert you by your PDA.
You could even build a saferoom with access to all the feeds.

If you're really worried about this situation, then take some steps to secure your home.
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Old February 9, 2008, 10:23 AM   #18
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I know mistakes happen. I make plenty myself.

That being said, here's my point. I don't deal in stolen property. I'm not a white slaver. I'm not a bank robber. I don't do dope/drugs in any way, shape, form or fasion. I don't buy, sell, trade,traffic, or manufacture them either.

There is NO reason for anyone to kick my door in...so I WILL defend my home...and probably get killed in the process.

Kind of a fatalistic view of it.

Mark.

ps: My wife worked with a woman whose father was killed by police in a wrong address fiasco. I know it does happen.
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Old February 9, 2008, 10:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosshair
The War on Drugs is a dismal failure. It never can and never will succeed. We have forgotten the lessons of prohibition from the 1920s. We are simply repeating our failure. Thankfully groups like LEAP are trying to stop the insanity.
Ah. The motivation for your attitude, accusations and responses just became crystal (no pun intended) clear.

I'm not going to argue the merits of the drug war with you.

I fought in it and bled in it. Did you? Anyone can read about war, especially on the internet. But seeing it, being in the middle of it, seeing the real victims, the short-term results, the long-term results and the option of not being there is only clear to those who are in it--on one side or the other.

But whether I believe in it or not is immaterial to the subject of this post.

I simply tried to respond with some advice, information and thoughts based upon my yaars as a federal agent who worked and served warrants in a number of major cities around the world.

If you re-read what I wrote objectively, I simply stated how things were during my era--I made it clear that I've been out of that work for a good long while and don't know how things are today.

However, I do believe that your atitude of "the police are now the enemy" is pathetic and contemptible. We are a nation of laws and in order to be such a nation, we need men and women who are willing to risk their butts to serve those laws and enforce those laws.

Not every cop is a miltarized goon. Not even close.

Not every gun owner is a black-gun toting Rambo wannabe. Not even close.

Just as I'm sure it upsets you to see gun owners painted with such a broad stroke, it is equally upsetting to see cops (or soldiers, or judges or babysitters or dog catchers, etc) painted with such a broad stroke as well.

And if you want to play hardball, I can give you far more instances of irresponsible and unlawful gunowner behavior than police behavior.

I don't like bad cops. I don't like the NASAF (seizuer) program either--I think it is unconstitutional, draconian and encourages corruptment. I know the man who is the originator and creator of the NASAF program. He was a very famous deputy U.S. Marshal who apprehended the infamous "Falcon" as in the "Falcon and the Snowman." His agency and ours worked very closely together.

As NASAF was originally written, it was a powerful tool against RICO crimes. But human-beings are prone to corruption--and NASAF opened the doors even wider. When you open a can of worms, rarely can you put them all back in.

Crosshair, you may not like how things are today with law enforcement. You're not alone. I don't like what I see and hear, either. I do not believe in no-knock warrants except under the direst of circumstances--and those are pretty damn rare.

The topic was "what can I do" in regards to seeing your door burst open and having cops storm in. "How do I know they're cops" etc etc.

That is what I tried to address, explain and advise upon based upon my own years of firsthand experience rather than what I read on the internet.

Jeff
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Old February 9, 2008, 11:08 AM   #20
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In the Cato map linked above there are 210 cases documented in the last 10 years. Each documenting varying degrees of incompetence, arrogance, stupidity and just bad luck. This is way too many (one is too many), but statistically an anomaly. 210 for a nation of over 300 million over 10 years. One per 15 million Americans per year.

Each of these cases should be investigated and the responsible parties should answer criminally and civilly, but using this to paint all police is too broad of a brush.
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Old February 9, 2008, 11:54 AM   #21
shaggy
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Tex (and Capt. Charlie) -

My response, and I think Crosshair's, were not meant as a "cop bash"
, but more of a bash of the policy that puts good cops at risk, tarnishes their reputation and goodwill with the American public, and puts the innocent gun owner being awoken in the middle of the night to their door being kicked down in the awful predicament of having to make a split second life or death decision while confused, startled and still groggy from sleep.

The war drugs is a big part of it, but merits, or lack thereof, of that collossal failure and waste of taxpayer money is a seperate issue.

The forfeiture laws are also a big part of it in my view, and as Tex has said, I absolutely agree it provides a strong incentive to law enforcement to really push the envelope of acceptability. That too, however, is a seperate issue that should probably be discussed in another thread.

I think the federal government's policy of giving tons of weapons and military equipment away to every police department in this country to pursue the drug war also plays a part. IIRC the Cato whitepaper cites one example where a small town police department in landlocked Kansas got amphibious assault vehicles. I may still be a little off track here, but I think we're getting closer to the heart of the matter. Because of the federal giveaways, many police departments who never had or saw a reason for a SWAT team, decided to take the equipment and set one up for the usual high risk situations - armed robbery, hostage situations etc. The training that went with the giveaways was either non-existant or training from the military. Civilian law enforcement is a far different mission, with much less lattitude for error than a military operation. We are, afterall, talking about US citizens on US soil who are, by virture of our criminal justice system, innocent until adjudicated guilty in a court of law. Once those SWAT teams were set up, their mission was expanded into relatively low level warrant service, thus drastically increasing the number of times these types of raids and tactices are used. With that increase comes an increasein the number of bad or botched raids.

In one such example, 11 year old Alberto Sepulveda was shot in the back - while laying face down on the ground, fully complying with the orders of police. According to the officer, the gun just went off. I think most of us would call that a "negligent discharge". And thats just one example, there are unfortunately more.
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Old February 9, 2008, 12:15 PM   #22
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I honestly don't even know why I read all of this. Maybe it was just to read TexasSeaRay's posts, whom I take no embarrasment in siding with. As a current LEO, and one who has crossed the gammet of assignments (including narcotics, from which the theme of this post, seems to be the focus), I can say that a lot more planning goes on behind the scenes than most civilians ever realize or learn from surfing the net or reading soldier of fortune type magazines.

I've been in law enforcement for nearly 20 years, am third generation in doing such, read the news, train daily, receive current and on going training in case law, legal updates, tactics, etc. I must have my head in the sand in all of these innocent killings and "botched police raids" that continue to happen.

Cop bash thread, period. I am surprised its still going.
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Old February 9, 2008, 12:45 PM   #23
zxcvbob
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Quote:
If you're talking about reacting to burglars or home invaders, I agree with you one hundred percent. If you're talking about reacting to legitimate law enforcement paying you a visit, I would wonder why you--specifically--are so paranoid.
and
Quote:
Quote:
Even if they *are* police, if they don't serve a warrant they are home invaders and IMHO should be dealt with accordingly. (the law of course disagrees with me on that point.) But it's probably a moot point because they have the drop on you.

Guess what? I didn't always need a warrant to kick in your door and arrest you. I could follow you from the scene of a dope buy that I watched you make or filmed you doing, call the rest of our crew in, and kick your door down while announcing who I am and who my partners were.

And if you tried to "deal with me accordingly," you'd lose in all sorts of bad ways, including the worst of ways that is permanent.
Hardtarget already posted a better response to this than I can come up with, but you wanted me specifically to reply: I live such a boring and squeeky clean life, there is no legitimate reason for the police to ever kick in my door. So I'll assume anyone doing so is an illegal invader, and if I have time to get my guns there will be a firefight. And I'll probably die, but hopefully I'll take a few of the bad guys with me. Maybe the survivors will think twice before they kick in another door. The good news is that I know all this is a very low probability occurance.

I don't expect my house to burn down either, but I have insurance.
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Old February 9, 2008, 01:01 PM   #24
SteelCore
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Quote:
I live such a boring and squeeky clean life, there is no legitimate reason for the police to ever kick in my door. So I'll assume anyone doing so is an illegal invader, and if I have time to get my guns there will be a firefight. And I'll probably die, but hopefully I'll take a few of the bad guys with me. Maybe the survivors will think twice before they kick in another door. The good news is that I know all this is a very low probability occurance.
This is precisely my position.
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Old February 9, 2008, 01:48 PM   #25
NukeCop
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I'm not sure if this is a cop bashing thread or not. Butttt, and its a big but, I will say BIG mistakes have happened, and sometimes with sad results, for all involved. Ruby Ridge is prolly the freshest in my mind... Waco a close second, although thats more a conspiracy theory as to what happened.

Either way, mistakes happen, just as humans are prone to to corruption, the same may be said about mistakes.
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