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Old February 8, 2008, 02:12 AM   #1
johnle
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Handcuffs or Zip Ties?

I'd like to keep either one of these next to my guns in case I have to use them. If someone invaded my home, I'd much rather have them give up then be shot (my girlfriend doesn't want anyone dying on her carpet).

Lets say they do give up, what's more reliable, safe and easier to use? Handcuffs or Zip ties?

I'd imagine zip ties would be easier since they just zip on?
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Old February 8, 2008, 02:21 AM   #2
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I don't have a lot of experience, but by nature I am a traditionalist.

In the past when I have been arrested, I've always respected the police officer that used genuine SW cuffs.

Triple plated, devoid of cosmetic marks and aggravating burrs that chafe the wrist. You know in a moment that this is a LEO that has chosen the best in perpetrator restraining devices.

Zip ties? Pshaw, that's for mall rent-a-cops.

Besides, even with a cheap knife I can cut through those dealies and be back off to a life of crime and the ladies in no time.
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Old February 8, 2008, 02:26 AM   #3
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We use zip ties on our pucs and I have seen people break them before...not very often but it can be done. If you do go the zip tie route make sure you use extra heavy duty ones.
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Old February 8, 2008, 02:30 AM   #4
johnle
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Well if he breaks loose of either one of these...I'm going to invade his personal space .45 ACP Speer 230gr Gold Dots.
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Old February 8, 2008, 02:36 AM   #5
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well

If you already have them at gun point and they have surrendered and are obeying your commands. Why would you want to lose your position of advantage by approaching and cuffing? Let the bad guy stay on the floor with a gun pointed at him. You lose tactical advantage by approaching, someone else covering ,ie. girlfriend with gun while you approach to cover, she is not going to shoot into the ball of human arms and legs if he decides he doesnt want to be cuffed and resists. Thats my opinion from 9yrs as a LEO.

To answer your question, I have seen guys break cuffs and I have seen them break flexi-cuffs. Honestly it is up to you. Whatever you get have someone show you how to employ them properly, both can cause undue injury and the civil lawsuits (depending on where you live) can get ugly.
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Old February 8, 2008, 02:42 AM   #6
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it's one of those just in case things, chances are if he's obeying at gun point I'd keep him that way and not do anything else. Depends on the situation, but yeah...I am trained to fight up close though since my girlfriends dad is luckily a wing chun instructor who graciously taught me over the years.
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Old February 8, 2008, 02:46 AM   #7
chris in va
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Neither. Bad idea to get anywhere near a BG especially by yourself. Hold at gunpoint until the cops arrive.
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Old February 8, 2008, 02:49 AM   #8
CelticMP
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well for just in case

well for just in case i like the hefty HWC handirons myself. never had a pair completely busted, hada guy bend them up pretty good. ask IZinterrogator how well they work he took a set last time he went playing in the sandbox. I am not a fan of hinged cuffs, the linked ones (have a bicycle chain style hinge) i like HWC's and SW handirons. For flexi-cuffs you can actually purchase the kevlar re-enforced ones at most cop shops or catalogs.

But again I do stress, it just is not a good idea to get that close to the BG. I was trained to fight up close too, but i cannot tell you how many times I have been in sitting in the back of a second ambulance getting bandaged because a surrendering suspect didnt like the feel of the cuffs and decided to resist at that point. BTW the suspect was usually in the first ambulance hehe
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Old February 8, 2008, 03:02 AM   #9
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yeah for the most part i know when to pick my battles, im not one to pick fights either. If I have my gun and he's on the floor, i wouldnt provoke any more trouble, but situational practice is always a good thing to keep on my mind.
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Old February 8, 2008, 04:08 AM   #10
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Be very careful. If you actually put cuffs on someone you cross into risky legal territory.
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Old February 8, 2008, 06:01 AM   #11
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Throw the cuff to the BG and have him put one on his wrist and the other on his ankle........while you keep him covered....he does it lying horizontally
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Old February 8, 2008, 06:23 AM   #12
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In most cases, if you have an intruder or criminal at gunpoint, they should be face down on the floor, feet crossed at the ankles with their arms outstretched, palms up. If they move from that position without your commands you can increase their weight 230-grains at a time.

Wait for police to arrive and take control. They practice this kind of thing in teams so you shouldn't be doing it solo or with your untrained spouse nervously pointing a gun in your direction. Do not throw a pair of handcuffs to the subject as you just provided him something to throw in your face.

Zip ties - I've seen three types. Plain "electrical" wire ties used as zip cuffs (easy to cut). Reinforced zip ties with aramid (kevlar) fibers inside (not enough to resist breakage). And the Nylon ones with a piece of thin spring steel running the length of the tie. These last cannot be cut with a knife, can't be abraded thru. They also have deeper teeth in the locking system that prevents forcing the cuffs open.
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Old February 8, 2008, 06:38 AM   #13
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Id say handcuffs... but why stop there ? I'd have a complete set of irons for our little visitor

and STOCK too
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Old February 8, 2008, 06:50 AM   #14
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i vote for just keeping the weapon on him until Law Enforcement arrives. let them deal with the scumbag, and if he moves, all they have to do is bag him up
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Old February 8, 2008, 09:29 AM   #15
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Whichever your girlfriend prefers, and forget you have them if one of these home invasion scenarios ever play out - it's a dangerous and stupid idea.
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Old February 8, 2008, 09:56 AM   #16
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Why in the world would you want to keep this guy around? IMO, the goal is to get the BG to go away, not keep him around. Cuffing him up puts you in more danger, standing around with the gun pointed at him puts you in more danger. Tell him to go away.
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Old February 8, 2008, 09:59 AM   #17
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I'd sooner keep him covered until other LEOs arrive to back up and secure the scene.

I work as a Bail Enforcement Officer and carry a set of cuffs regularly since my job requires me to work "on call". I've worked in various forms of Public Safety Administration over the past 12 1/2 years where I've carried cuffs for my job, and even with my training I'd still be apprehensive about cuffing a home intruder myself without other LEO present. There's too many factors involved and too many things that could go horribly wrong.

My girlfriend prefers the cuffs, but that's for more recreational purposes.

Either way, if you're going to choose between one or the other, I'd prefer good quality steel cuffs from a local cop shop, or from www.galls.com or www.atlantictactical.com

Whatever you decide, please stay safe.

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Old February 8, 2008, 10:35 AM   #18
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If you feel you must restraint a suspect, use handcuffs.

With that said, IMO it's a bad idea for you to try this. Keep your distance with the suspect at gunpoint. If he runs aways, so what. That's better than him taking you down and disarming you while you're attempting to cuff him.
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Old February 8, 2008, 11:06 AM   #19
Glenn E. Meyer
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So you throw the cuffs to the BG and tell him to put them on. So he say: NO.

BTW, there are articles and films out there of officers getting clobbered with the cuffs. Why give the dude an impact weapon?

Use them recreationally and let the cops cuff people for business.
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Old February 8, 2008, 11:42 AM   #20
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Why in the world would you want to keep this guy around? IMO, the goal is to get the BG to go away, not keep him around. Cuffing him up puts you in more danger, standing around with the gun pointed at him puts you in more danger. Tell him to go away.
True, and like I said before...prevent an intruder from fleeing and you will be really surprised when you are the one on trial if he gets a lawyer. I personally saw a case where a pawn shop owner handcuffed an attempted theif to a display case once and then found himself facing 1st degree felony kidnapping charges along with several other counts for some things you would never think possible. I did not get to see how it turned out but I am sure at the very least it cost him a ton of money in legal fees.

if a bad guy tries to flee, let them flee. You are not a cop and unless you are very certain about your ability to make a citizens arrest (which usually does not allow restraint or holding someone at gunpoint) you are risking a lot by putting cuffs on anyone other than another willing adult.
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Old February 8, 2008, 11:58 AM   #21
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and unless you are very certain about your ability to make a citizens arrest (which usually does not allow restraint or holding someone at gunpoint)
Ummm, that's wrong and just plain dumb. If you are legally authorized to make a citizen's arrest (which usually means you have either witnessed a felony or witnessed a "breach of the peace") you are authorized to arrest them. Restraining them, either with commands at gunpoint or with cuffs, is the "arrest" part of citizen's arrest.

That being said, it takes a bit of training to properly use handcuffs and no untrained person should consider it. If you've been trained as a LEO or military type, you'd already know the answers to these questions. In other words, if you have to ask, forget the handcuffs or flexicuffs.
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Old February 8, 2008, 12:02 PM   #22
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Ummm, that's wrong and just plain dumb. If you are legally authorized to make a citizen's arrest (which usually means you have either witnessed a felony or witnessed a "breach of the peace") you are authorized to arrest them. Restraining them, either with commands at gunpoint or with cuffs, is the "arrest" part of citizen's arrest.
You might want to go talk to a lawyer about that. In a whole lot of places it is just not the case.

In fact you can usually go to your local police department and find a guide to how to make a citizen's arrest. They usually include...

1. Notify police upon observing a crime.

2. Provide police with information to assist in identifying the violator.

3. Sign the complaint form. (After this, most cases are concluded without your further involvement.)

4. Appear in court when requested by the District Attorney's Office.

and they will usually include warnings such as...

"When you sign or make a complaint against someone for an infraction of the law, you are in affect "arresting" them...I cannot recommend that you try and "arrest" someone by restraining them physically, as you may be subject to liability if you do that. Work within the system by filing your charge with a police department or States Attorney with jurisdiction."

This is not a "Rambo" situation and treating it as such can cost you a great deal.
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Old February 8, 2008, 12:07 PM   #23
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I am a lawyer. Thanks.

The process you describe is not making a citizen's arrest, it's filing a citizen's complaint. Some states allow private citizens to file the complaint, some require the LEO or prosecutor to conduct an independent investigation. It's totally independent of the concept of citizens arrest.
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Old February 8, 2008, 12:12 PM   #24
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I am a lawyer. Thanks.

That's not making a citizen's arrest, that's filing a citizen's complaint.
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If you truely are a lawyer then you know better.

Since you are saying you are a lawyer, and I assume you are a criminal prosecutor since you understand the citizen's arrest codes so well, why don't you recite to me and yourself a list of possible charges a person could face for restraining another citizen or holding them at gunpoint...just for the heck of it. Oh, and cite some precedent.

I think if you do so honestly you will realize the pitfalls of a citizen's arrest.

Here is a hint...look up charges of kidnapping, false imprisonment, coercion, assualt, use of undo force, improper use of force or restraint, etc related to citizens arrests.
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Old February 8, 2008, 03:48 PM   #25
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Neither. Bad idea to get anywhere near a BG especially by yourself. Hold at gunpoint until the cops arrive.
This is the best answer you received in the preceding posts. One more thing...a shoestring rapidly rubbed back & forth against a nylon zip tie will burn right through it in a short time. Most BG's are aware of this. Keep him muzzled until the cops get there...
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