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Old January 31, 2008, 11:00 AM   #1
The Tourist
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A cold dose of reality.

(Mods, please move this if I have placed it in the wrong section, thank you.)

During the past few days, Madison, Wisconsin has endured its first murder of the year. Tragic as it was, it has some unique aspects which touch upon our beliefs, our freedoms and our misconceptions. (PLease see our Wisconsin State Journal for better details.)

First, the death occurred during a random home invasion. After a cursorary investigation, the police stated to the press that the victim and the aggressor did not know each other.

Two, it probably happened in daylight hours. The victim tried to use the rear exit of his home to utilize an alley near an ER. His body was seen when he collapsed.

Three, unless further details unfold, the victim did not own any implements he could fetch and effectively use against his attacker. He was totally unarmed in his own dwelling.

And finally, despite all of the "knives to a gunfight" jokes we use, the aggressor killed the victim with a knife. And from the simplistic details released, the knife seems to be a pretty mundane style. Usually when that happens, the weapon turns out to be a simple steak knife. It could even be fron the victim's own kitchen.

In other words, this death is the classic example of the biggest, scariest Charlie Foxtrot we could imagine in our wildest scenario.

That being a successful, lethal attack during a daylight home invasion of an unarmed homeowner in condition white by a random attacker with a contact weapon.

If someone proffered that scenario as a fantasy here, the mods would probably shut down the thread as being foolish, and providing no salient information because it appeared so extreme.

Additionally, the weapon was very likely cheap and poorly maintained. The victim bled out before he got very far.

Last week I argued that while some people dislike "scenario threads," they often point out to me 'holes' or misconceptions in my thinking when dealing with security. This death is a cold reminder that no matter how pathetic the thought processes plummet for a felon, some can--and did--die during an attack.
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Old January 31, 2008, 11:29 PM   #2
SIGSHR
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Were I to be contemplating "The Big Job", Cold Steel would be my first choice, it's SBD-Silent But Deadly. In even an ordinary kitchen you will find
as fine a selection of deadly weapons as you would ever want, with the added advantage that they cannot be traced back to you. One reasons why the Russians and Soviets stuck with their cruciform bayonets for the Mosin
Nagant rifle was the great Russian General Suvorov, who said "The bullet is
a fool but the bayonet knows what it is doing." I recall being told in my youth
that 3" is enough to reach the heart. But we all know that crime is caused by
guns.
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Old February 1, 2008, 01:02 AM   #3
BillCA
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The latest info I found is this story:
http://www.madison.com/wsj/mad/top/i...hp?ntid=269886

The 8-inch knife was found in the livingroom. So unless it was from his own kitchen, most likely someone knocked on his door, forced their way in and stabbed him during an altercation. If it's from his own kitchen, it may be someone entered the home thru stealth, obtained the knife and then used it when confronted by the victim.

The paper noted police collected a pair of rubber gloves from the front porch. These may have been discarded by the killer as he left and if so, I suspect he broke in quietly, armed himself and killed the resident when confronted.

Note that burglary convicts have said that they prefer to enter near a kitchen so they can obtain a knife in case they meet an occupant. If the job goes smoothly, they can drop the knife back in the drawer and exit "unarmed" in case the cops catch them.
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Old February 1, 2008, 01:10 AM   #4
The Tourist
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Thanks, Bill. Seems a very odd story.

Even in this age, it seems bizarre that a home invader might show up during the daylight hours, possibly unarmed and kill a guy he might not have even known. Over time I'll bet some connection is made.

I know I checked all of my doors tonight for a second time.
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Old February 1, 2008, 10:43 PM   #5
BillCA
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Tourist,

I don't see it as out of the ordinary, really. At least not the way things work in a lot of communities.

Most families have two working adults and they usually work the 8-5 shift. Thus most homes are empty during the day. It's safer to burglarize homes when occupants are away, so daylight burglaries are common place in working neighborhoods.

If the perp broke in quietly, it's likely that he obtained a kitchen knife upon entry. If he were surprised in the house by a male, threatening with the knife is his means of escaping capture. However, if that surprise occurs at close quarters, a brief fight ensues. The resident is stabbed, fights, gets stabbed again, maybe gets a good lick in on the perp who drops the knife as the resident flees out the back door. Perp flees out the front door.

Or the perp is simply something of a pyschopath who was looking for valuables, stabbed the resident and then calmly left, dropping his rubber gloves on the porch. (Since the deceased worked for a medical supply house, the gloves may mean nothing.)
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Old February 2, 2008, 03:27 AM   #6
chris in va
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Quote:
Even in this age, it seems bizarre that a home invader might show up during the daylight hours, possibly unarmed and kill a guy he might not have even known. Over time I'll bet some connection is made
Every watch the show, "It Takes A Thief"? All their 'burglaries' are done during the day. No one's the wiser.
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Old February 2, 2008, 03:36 AM   #7
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Every watch the show, "It Takes A Thief"? All their 'burglaries' are done during the day. No one's the wiser.
We had a rash of daylight robberies here in Oregon a few years ago. In the summer guys would go around and find people working in their yards and enter their houses.

One story was kind of funny because a thief targeted an elderly couple that were in their front yard doing yard work. The thieves target older couples assuming they have no kids at home and live alone. He entered to do some quick snatch and grab. Unfortunately for him, he was not aware their grand daughter was visiting. She saw the man pass her doorway and grabbed a golf club and went after him and beat him half to death and held him at bay until her grand mother could call the cops which arrived shortly after.

The guy ended up needing medical attention and turned out to be a guy that had recently been a suspect in several assault cases and had supposedly been deported. It caused a big stink locally.
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Old February 2, 2008, 03:41 AM   #8
The Tourist
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I'm simply looking at this crime as it might be an event in my life.

Lots of times during the summer months I'm puttering around out in the garage, radio playing, friends over sipping a cold one and laughing, everyone laying back in condition white.

You never think of an unarmed home invader coming onto your property, or you yourself becoming an instant victim of a random murder. Perhaps that's the tragic lesson here.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to live in a gated, cinder block bunker with guns drawn and sirens wailing 24/7. I have reasonable alarms and door locks. Your home should be a place of refuge and a climate where you and friends can relax.

I take care at home, no question about it. But has society sunk to a level where I have to load a Kalashnikov to go sit on the john and read a magazine?
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Old February 2, 2008, 08:33 AM   #9
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Tourist, I understand part of your point, but you have over dramatized the event and misrepresented several aspects of the event in the process. We don't like it when anti-gun people overly dramatize matters or misrepresent facts to help make their arguments. We should not stand for it when we do the same thing. Regardless of the reason for it, it is still misrepresentation.

Quote:
First, the death occurred during a random home invasion.
No. The death occurred after the home invasion or as a result of the home invasion, but no indication that it occurred during the invasion. The victim was found alive out in the alley, but died by the time he got to the hospital.

Quote:
His body was seen when he collapsed.
There were witnesses in the alley that saw him fall? That does sound more dramatic than finding him after he fell, but that was apparently the case. His body was seen WHERE he collapsed.

Quote:
Three, unless further details unfold, the victim did not own any implements he could fetch and effectively use against his attacker. He was totally unarmed in his own dwelling.
You don't know he was totally unarmed. He may have been unable to fetch any weapons because of how the attack progressed. Many police officers died in a similar fashion, with arms, but unable to bring them into the fight. That does not mean they were unarmed.

Quote:
In other words, this death is the classic example of the biggest, scariest Charlie Foxtrot we could imagine in our wildest scenario.
Really? Was the victim repeatedly sodomized as well? Did the intruder torture his family in front of him? When did the attacker set him on fire? You know things are dramatic when military lingo is used as it is only used under the gravest of conditions. We all know that.

Quote:
That being a successful, lethal attack during a daylight home invasion of an unarmed homeowner in condition white by a random attacker with a contact weapon.
Just how was it that you determined he was in condition white? This is an assumption. For all you know, he was in condition yellow or red, but was simply defeated.

Quote:
If someone proffered that scenario as a fantasy here, the mods would probably shut down the thread as being foolish, and providing no salient information because it appeared so extreme.
This isn't extreme or a Charlie Foxtrot scenario. This sort of thing is fairly common.

Quote:
Additionally, the weapon was very likely cheap and poorly maintained. The victim bled out before he got very far.
At this point, I figure you are dealing with the people at the Psychic Friends Network for your information. Just how did you determine the knife was likely cheap and poorly maintained? Since it could have been the victim's do you know the victim only has cheap knives and has a bad record of maintaining them? The expense and maintenence of the weapon does not appear to be in the reports thusfar, so I am curious as to how you came up with such interesting information.

Quote:
This death is a cold reminder that no matter how pathetic the thought processes plummet for a felon, some can--and did--die during an attack.
Now you are just getting freaky. What does it matter if the thought processes of a felon have plummetted or not? Yes, we all know that folks can due from such attacks. This death should be a cold reminder to what apparently actually did happen and that is that he survived the actual attack (contrary to everything you have written) and died AFTERWARDS.

Quote:
Last week I argued that while some people dislike "scenario threads," they often point out to me 'holes' or misconceptions in my thinking when dealing with security.
Apparently this is because you just makes up things that aren't there. You seem to have started this thread not because you thought the information was useful but because you wanted to make the point that your concerns in scenario threads are valid. Given how you have dealt with the information in this case, I can see how people see misconceptions in your thinking.

Quote:
I don't know about you, but I don't want to live in a gated, cinder block bunker with guns drawn and sirens wailing 24/7. I have reasonable alarms and door locks. Your home should be a place of refuge and a climate where you and friends can relax.
Oh you mean in condition white, don't you? Nobody stays in higher level conditions all the time.

Your cold dose of reality largely seems to be missing the reality.


http://www.nbc15.com/home/headlines/14558752.html#
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Old February 2, 2008, 01:12 PM   #10
The Tourist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
At this point, I figure you are dealing with the people at the Psychic Friends Network for your information.
Well, I did pay a fortune for the membership, and I got a lovely tote bag. In point of fact, the info there is just as valid as in a hobbyist forum. Gun guys who can break-down an assault rifle in their sleep don't know beans about knives.

As for a "cheap poorly maintained knife," yes that's correct. Sadly for his pain and fear for a stupid attack that should not have happened at all, the victim walked on his own. In this case, fully out of his home and down an alley before he collapsed. If his aggressor had a decent knife and knew what he was doing, that wouldn't have happened.

(You gun guys make the same assumptions in firearms attacks. A minor grazing wound with a .25 ACP is not a head shot with a .454 Casull.)

Additionally, events unfold. The victim was not seen falling, but seen laying. It still must have been a daylight invasion for the body to have been seen, at all. And this type of thing is not common in Madison. A drunken student falling over a porch railing at a frat party to his death is common, but not home invasions.

As for relaxing at home, when a guy walks up my driveway he's usually the paper-boy. Folks get really edgy when I don cammie war-paint, club random people with the butt end of a Kalashnikov and interrogate them in the cistern in my basement.

A man is dead and you're nitpicking.
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Old February 2, 2008, 05:34 PM   #11
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If his aggressor had a decent knife and knew what he was doing, that wouldn't have happened.
Tourist,

This is still pure speculation!

Please don’t take it personal, but there is absolutely no evidence that supports the condition of the aggressor’s knife one way or the other. And further, there is no evidence that supports the aggressor’s knowledge and skill or lack thereof in the use of his weapon. Any number of events could have led to the same result, whether the aggressor used a dull steak knife or the finest edged weapon, made from the finest steel. The same applies to whether the aggressor was an expert in the use of his weapon or some schmuck who was wielding a knife as a weapon for the first time.
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Old February 2, 2008, 09:37 PM   #12
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A man is dead and you're nitpicking.
A man is dead and you are making up information and still miss the point. Here, you are using an appeal to emotion, as if because somebody died, we should pity you for your inability to get facts correct.

Okay, what is the source that says the knife was cheap and poorly maintained?

Quote:
If his aggressor had a decent knife and knew what he was doing, that wouldn't have happened.
Definitely more speculation.

Where do you get this stuff. Just what do you know of the aggressor's knowledge base? What do you know of the victim's? You haven't a clue on these specifics and you just keep making up stuff.

Quote:
And this type of thing is not common in Madison.
Yes, but your audience here isn't a bunch of Madison townies. You have been here long enough to know this. This type of thing goes on frequently all over the country. It is no more horrific because it happened in Madison than if it happened in New York.

Quote:
A drunken student falling over a porch railing at a frat party to his death is common, but not home invasions.
There you go, just fabricating data again.

As for what does and does not happen in Madison, it looks like your crime rate is a bit lower than the national average. You get 4 murders a year instead of 7 per 100,000 people, but your aggrevated assault rate is definitely higher than the national average.
http://madisonwi.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm

Well you must have a lot of drunk students falling over porch railings to their deaths (did this happen to you) because Madison had a home invasion problem in 2007 by a serial home invader and rapist.
http://www.dane101.com/current/2007/...nvasion_rapist
http://wkow.madison.com/News/index.php?ID=18325
http://www.thedailypage.com/isthmus/...?article=15081

How about 2006?
http://www.town.madison.wi.us/police...s/06-72912.htm
http://www.channel3000.com/news/10625142/detail.html

Sorry to burst your townie bubble, Tourist, but Madison's violent crime rate appears to be on the rise
http://www.idcide.com/citydata/wi/madison.htm

So how about getting a grip and stop fabricating data.
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Old February 3, 2008, 01:56 AM   #13
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A man is dead and you're trying out for the debating team.
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Old February 3, 2008, 02:08 AM   #14
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Yes, the man is dead. Are we holding a memorial service, or are we trying to learn something from the incident? If the latter, we need accurate information.
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Old February 3, 2008, 02:25 AM   #15
The Tourist
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I'm getting the feeling that no matter how many updated links were posted we'd start debating if the invader was left or right handed.

Again, a man was killed in a random daylight home invasion. Since 90% of the population is right handed...
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Old February 3, 2008, 04:17 PM   #16
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Tourist,

As I said, it's not uncommon for burlgars to enter a house and arm themselves with a knife from the victim's own kitchen. Given that the knife was found under furniture in the livingroom gives rise to speculation that a confrontation occurred there, the homeowner and killer fought there, and the homeowner struggled out the back door and collapsed.

The killer could have been surprised by the homeowner and acted out of impulse. Or the killer may have expected more compliance from the resident and when he refused attacked him. Or the "burglar" could have surprised the homeowner after hearing him moving about and a struggle ensued. We don't know.

I live in one of the safest "large communities" (over 500K people) in California, yet I keep a firearm available to me almost 24/7 when home. I'm in a townhome complex and there are often strangers passing by. Some of these are visitors to other residents and some are not. When working in my garage with the door open I'll have a .22 or snubby .38 in a pocket in the event a stranger approaches. This does happen because some addresses are hard to locate, but I think I can tell the lost visitor from the potential thief or thug fairly easily.

After an attempted rape here a couple of years ago, we now keep visual tabs on any door-to-door "salesmen" and usually have the PD come check them out. As a result it's been quiet here for the last few years. Likewise, confronting a "wanderer" in the complex by asking if they're lost usually lets them know too many eyes are on them.
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Old February 3, 2008, 04:22 PM   #17
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As I said, it's not uncommon for burlgars to enter a house and arm themselves with a knife from the victim's own kitchen.
I would disagree to the point of saying it IS uncommon because how many people out of every thousand even get burglarized, much less assualted by the burglar. I am sure it is a very low percentage.

That being said, statistics mean nothing if you are the person it is actually happening to at the time. It does not matter if only 1/10000 people ever have it happen. If you are the 1 the other 9,999 people quickly become irrelevant.
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Old February 3, 2008, 08:41 PM   #18
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PBP,

It may be uncommon for an actual assault to take place, but a large number of convicted burglars have indicated this is a common practice. Mostly, defend against a large, angry resident and/or to prevent someone from calling for help if they were discovered.

The number of people confronted by a burglar is very small. Most of 'em will hear you entering the house and exit before a confrontation happens.
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Old February 3, 2008, 08:49 PM   #19
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A man is dead and you're trying out for the debating team.
No, a man is dead and you are lying about what happened, embellishing the story so as to promote your own agenda to build credibility for your holes and misconceptions.

Sorry if I overwhelmed you with actual data that can be verified about stuff happening in your own town that you don't know about, but you apparently needed to be brought up to speed.

Quote:
Again, a man was killed in a random daylight home invasion.
And just how do you know this is random?
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Old February 3, 2008, 09:15 PM   #20
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Easy there spy... he may not be "lying" so much as just rushing to judgement on the story. Lots of folks do this when there's no apparent motive and get nervous about "random" crime. And some people have a deep seated fear of this sort of thing which makes it harder for them to dispassionately review the facts.
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Old February 4, 2008, 07:06 AM   #21
Double Naught Spy
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Sorry, but what do you call making up information that doesn't exist and presenting it as fact?
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Old February 4, 2008, 11:04 AM   #22
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Tourist,

If the point of your post it to convince people that crime can happen anywhere and anytime, just come out and say so. We all know its true. Maybe that is why Bill carries 24/7 when he is at home. Even in gated communities located in the good parts of town, things happen.

I was renting my parent's old house and was burglerized. It was inside of a gated community that had some pretty expensive homes and was done during day light hours. There was actually a problem with burgleries in the community (about 20 or so if I recalled in a 350 home community). The cops were totally useless, but that is another story. If you think about it, it makes more sense to rob nicer homes since they usually contain more and better stuff. Also, gated communities are a false sense of security since a simple wave to the guard is all it takes to open the gate. Even if they write down your license plate number, there is little they can do. There are some exceptions of course but most gated communities here in Miami have the "secret wave" admittance policy.

As for the homeowner getting killed, it is not that hard to believe either. I park my car in the garage so there is no way for a burgler to know if I am home or not. I have heard that most burglers will actually knock on the door pretending to look for an address to determine if there is anyone home. Hey, it makes sense to me. If the homeowner tried to attack the burgler or detain him for the police, the ensuing attack makes perfect sense.

My point is that it isn't as uncommon as you think and that you should always have some safeguards that buys you more time to react. This may include good locks, an alarm system, and/or a good guard dog. Heck, get all 3 for good measure. I am also thinking about changing all my windows to hurricane proof windows since I hate putting up shutters everytime a storm comes near (besides, its great insulation). You might even want to keep a few guns hidden around the house if you don't have any kids.

Poop happens. Be prepared when it does.
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Last edited by stephen426; February 5, 2008 at 11:30 AM.
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