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Old January 26, 2008, 08:56 AM   #1
Elijah7
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Carrying Concealed without CCW in NY

Hello all,
I am new to the forum and thought I would tap into some of the wisdom here with a dilemna I am in.

I have a pistol permit in NY but it is restricted to hunting, target shooting and home defense. It is next to impossible to get a CCW in NY unless you have millions or live very far north in a couple of adirondack counties. I am married with two small children and stress everywhere I go that a situation will come up that will render me and my family helpless. I am considering carrying my P-3AT concealed anyway. I think I would rather be caught with a gun then caught without one when I need it. On the flip side, I am no good to my family as a protector if I am in prison.

So my question is how much trouble would I get in if I were caught carrying without a CCW. Is the compromise possibly carrying with the mag in a different pocket. Bear in mind I would NEVER draw unless someone's life was in danger and I had full intentions of firing the weapon, also the P-3AT is not exactly intimidating, :-) I have plenty of $$ to pay for a good lawyer, wouldn't mind probabtion or community service. Just would never want to go to prision just to carry.

Any and all wisdom would be appreciated. Thank you!
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Old January 26, 2008, 09:05 AM   #2
tacticalmedic
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Are you nuts?

DO NOT BREAK THE LAW!!! Try to get your ccw permit through the legal channels already in place. If you have plenty of $$$ to spend, don't spend it on a lawyer. Spend it on your family.
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Old January 26, 2008, 09:07 AM   #3
KMO
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My advice, move to a more gun-friendly state. Seriously, I don't think anyone on the forum is going to advise you to willingly break the law. Sadly, the states where one would seem to need a CCW permit most are also the most restrictive - makes no sense.
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Old January 26, 2008, 09:12 AM   #4
DMZX
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Do a simple risk analysis

I am with tac'med'. Do not break the law. You may go to prison as there are at least two potential felony charges. Possession of an unregistered weapon and illegal carry. Even if you get probation, you lose your weapons and your right to ever purchase or possess again.
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Old January 26, 2008, 09:16 AM   #5
Elijah7
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FYI, the P-3AT is registered and listed on my permit.
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Old January 26, 2008, 09:16 AM   #6
PT111
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If you have plenty of $$$$$$$$ to pay a good lawyer then you need to use some of them to get a lawyer bribe enough people to get a proper permit rather than taking a chance. It will be cheaper in the long run.
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Old January 26, 2008, 09:23 AM   #7
DMZX
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FYI, the P-3AT is registered and listed on my permit.
In NY State or NYC? I believe it has to be licensed with the city by the Police commissioner.
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Old January 26, 2008, 09:23 AM   #8
Elijah7
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Central NY, not NYC, thank God!
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Old January 26, 2008, 09:39 AM   #9
Wuchak
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You need to understand better what those restrictions on your permit and the permit itself mean. I had a permit while in NY. If you have a permit to carry then you can carry every place outside of NYC and a couple of surrounding counties. In the NY law there are some specific locations where carry is prohibited. Other than those locations if you have a permit you can carry and you are not breaking any law. The restrictions listed on your permit carry no legal weight with the police or any other official in NY other than the issuing Judge. There is no criminal penalty for violating those restrictions. However because they are part of the agreement between you and the issuing Judge, and NY is a "may-issue" state the Judge can revoke your permit for violating them. For this to happen you need to get caught carrying concealed by the police and have word of it get back to the Judge.

The restriction "hunting" on my permit included hiking, backpacking, fishing, or any other activity in the woods. Check with the Judge that yours covers the same.

You are now part of the always going shooting / hiking club.

Keep a bag in your car with ear protection, eye protection, box of ammo, and targets. In the event that you are stopped by the police or they somehow discover that you are carrying all you need to is mention that you were heading to the range later and there's your range stuff. Remember the police don't care about the restrictions, they only care that you have a permit. Having the range stuff in the car just becomes part of the story of the stop and will make the story less likely to get back to the Judge and if it does get back you had the range stuff. It's basically a CYA move that is not any different than the Judge putting the restrictions on your permit in the first place.

After you have had your permit for one year without any incident make an appointment to see the Judge to ask to have your restrictions listed. Everyone I know who ever did this had the restrictions removed since they had proven themselves responsible. I moved out of state before my year was up.

Good luck. The P-3AT is an excellent choice. I have one that goes everywhere with me.

Get involved with a group trying to get NY to become a Shall Issue state. The whole may issue arose with the Sullivan Act
http://www.gunlawnews.org/sullivan.html.

"January 27, 1905 New York Times Editorial -

[The proposed gun control] measure would prove corrective and salutary in a city filled with immigrants and evil communications, floating from the shores of Italy and Austria-Hungary. New York police reports frequently testify to the fact that the Italian and other south Continental gentry here are acquainted with the pocket pistol, and while drunk or merrymaking will use it quite as handily as the stiletto, and with more deadly effect. It is hoped that this treacherous and distinctly outlandish mode of settling disputes may not spread to corrupt the native good manners of the community.

For more information on the racist origins of gun control in general, check out "NEVER INTENDED TO BE APPLIED TO THE WHITE POPULATION": FIREARMS REGULATION AND RACIAL DISPARITY--THE REDEEMED SOUTH'S LEGACY TO A NATIONAL JURISPRUDENCE?"
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Old January 26, 2008, 09:50 AM   #10
Elijah7
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Thank you for the positive reply Wuchak. I have actually had my permit for almost 5 years now. I never thought of going back to the judge and asking for the restrictions to be removed. The hunting/hiking/target way works when if the car, but what about when I am at the grocery store or just taking a walk with my family? Thanks again
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Old January 26, 2008, 12:31 PM   #11
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You're welcome. If you had your permit for 5 years and have had no problems that created a headache for the issuing Judge then make an appointment this week to go see him/her. Don't be surprised if it takes a couple of weeks to actually get in to see the Judge.

If you are at the store or out for a walk and you have the P-3AT with you nobody will every know. Concealed means concealed. You can also be stopping at the store on your way to the range. If you are out for a walk and are in the woods you should be covered under the hunting restriction. If you are around town then you were on your way out the door to the range and decided to take the kids for a walk around the block. Or you were just carrying at home and forgot to take it out of your pocket. Again, this is not a criminal offense. As far as the police are concerned you have a permit to carry and can carry anywhere it is legal. If it's in your hometown however you can bet that word of the incident will get back to the Judge and you will be called in to discuss it, and you might leave that discussion without your permit. With a gun as small as the P-3AT there is no way anyone should ever know you have it unless you have to use it. Keep in mind that you are not breaking any law carrying unless you go into someplace that is specifically listed as off limits in the NY code. The Judge will be able to point you to the sections of the code that list the places that are off limits if your restrictions are lifted. Before you meet with the Judge you should read through section 265 of the NY Penal code which deals with firearms http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/me...MMONQUERY=LAWS and section 400 that deals with pistol permits http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/me...MMONQUERY=LAWS.

Let us know how you make out.
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Old January 26, 2008, 12:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
In NY State or NYC? I believe it has to be licensed with the city by the Police commissioner

I live on Long Island. The two counties have somewhat similar restrictions. It is my understanding that no matter where you live in NY your permit is NG in NYC unless endorsed by NYC.

Here, there are various classes of permits. It is very hard to obtain a "carry for personal protection" which is what some people refer to as a "full carry". I have one. It took near an act of congress to get it. I was attacked on my own property by an individual that had a long history with the police. He was arrested for this menacing and subsequent violations of an order of protection that was issued. Pistol licensing gave me grief over upgrading my permit. I had a target permit in both Counties that I had lived in for many years. The point here is that you can get around it. It just takes extenuating circumstances.

Your job/business may qualify you for a license also. If you can show cash deposits of the required amount at the required intervals that may work. Be creative.

Some of you that live on Long Island may remember a gun store by the name of Leslie Edelmans. Edelmans ran a 24 hour range that gave you , the member a key. If you were stopped carrying at the time, you were simply going to the range.

Be aware that many permits/licenses do stipulate that you must go directly to your residence from the range or business. Could this be a problem? I don't know. I just think it easier to have the law on your side in case you get into a SHTF scenario. Yes it is difficult to get the class of license you would like, however, depending on your county not impossible.

Good luck
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Old January 26, 2008, 01:07 PM   #13
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Move. If you can't or won't get to work changing the law. It has happened in other states. NY is a special case, but people are people.

More obstacles means more work.
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Old January 26, 2008, 02:02 PM   #14
Frank Ettin
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One additional thing to consider. An Internet Forum is not a good place to discuss breaking the law. This is a public place, and it's entirely possible that gun related forums are monitored. I personally would not count on being able to remain anonymous.
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Old January 26, 2008, 02:56 PM   #15
KMO
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Hey Perldog...We're in agreement on this thread (check back)...time for you to worry...ha!
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Old January 26, 2008, 03:16 PM   #16
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Anyone ever wonder if these "hey, I'm gonna break the law...what do you guys think about it???" posts are by some people not necessarily on our side of the fence on the gun issue?

Not to mention when a post like that is made by a brand new member?
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Old January 26, 2008, 03:29 PM   #17
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I would suspect that accounts for most of it. But truly what I think about doing things that land one behind bars is reflected in my lack of time behind bars.


Can't see to many things worth going to prison over.

Not satisfied with the state of personal protection limitation statues and practices these days, but doing it the right way has gained some ground.

I have worked armed security in areas where defense tools are prohibited. Done the same in places where individual self defense rights are protected. I prefer working in those venues where citizens in possession of legal self defense tools are to be found.

It took two hundred years for things to get like they were in 1986. We have only been on a visible path to recovery in the area of personal self defense since 1987.

Can't do it in two centuries and undo it in two decades.

Quote:
kmoffitt Hey Perldog...We're in agreement on this thread (check back)...time for you to worry...ha!
popping an extra strength immodium now...
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Old January 26, 2008, 03:32 PM   #18
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CCW without a permit and you should go to jail!!
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Old January 26, 2008, 04:03 PM   #19
Perldog007
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I have to agree. Breaking a bad law is a bad idea. The law will make you aware of this if caught.

Working to change laws is a good idea. Educating people. Trying to set a good example. Good ideas.

If you carry in violation of law you have to be prepared to accept the penalty and responsibility. Not always the most tasteful view of things for some but accurate none the less.
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Old January 26, 2008, 04:14 PM   #20
Laserlips
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JMOFartO:

Don't think I'd be cc a firearm in New York without a license ..

I had a friend many years ago who was a Miami,Fl. cop. He and his family were passing through New York and stopped for some reason or another (traffic stop or something like that). Anyway when they found out he had a firearm,(don't ask me how) they came very close to putting him in the slammer.:barf:

And he was a full time cop (altho in another State) at the time.

When my wife or myself find ourselves unable to cc our firearms (we both have Ga. permits) we use a "Small Fry" one million volt "stun gun" as our "better than nothing" option.

The "Small Fry" stun gun is very tiny, (cell ph. size) comes with a belt case, lifetime warranty & installed lithium battery + charger for roughly $42.00 off Ebay.

Don't know if a stun gun is legal in your state, but if it is "something is certainly better than nothing", and my understanding is that a stun gun actually works pretty good to get someone "off" you.

Whatever you do I wouldn't carry unlicensed in New York..

I WOULD move.

YMMV

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Old January 26, 2008, 04:30 PM   #21
Harry Callahan
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Quote:
I have to agree. Breaking a bad law is a bad idea. The law will make you aware of this if caught.

Working to change laws is a good idea. Educating people. Trying to set a good example. Good ideas.

If you carry in violation of law you have to be prepared to accept the penalty and responsibility. Not always the most tasteful view of things for some but accurate none the less.
This is the stuff the left wing media LOVES to report. They would rather report this than report you saved your entire family by using a gun legally. Be smart.
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Old January 26, 2008, 04:34 PM   #22
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Carrying Concealed without CCW in NY
Not a good idea to break the law, esspecially when you have a family to provide for. I would recommend against it.
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Old January 26, 2008, 04:38 PM   #23
chris in va
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So he can't carry without a permit. What other options are available to him besides firearms? Folding knife, bear spray...?

See, we have to help each other out on these issues instead of 'move' or 'don't do it'.
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Old January 26, 2008, 05:02 PM   #24
mikejonestkd
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You need to contact the local issuing office, probably at the county clerk's office or contact the issuing judge to have the permit ammended.
In some cases it is fairly simple to do, in other cases it may be time consumming but not impossible.

If you have a 5 year history of having a permit and no legal issues to speak of you should prevail.

We were specifically told in Monroe County to write on the application each and every possibly reason for owning/ carrying a pistol in NY, including carrying for personal protection. I suggest that others do the same when they apply, even if they never want to hunt, or work for an armored car service, or be a security guard, or target shoot competively...and so on and so on..
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Old January 26, 2008, 05:12 PM   #25
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popping an extra strength immodium now...
easy big fella...
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