The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 19, 2008, 11:47 PM   #26
oldbillthundercheif
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2006
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 2,450
Quote:
Not one of the rest of them would even talk to the other shooters
Was this before or after the match? If it was before, I don't blame them at all. Competitors have all types of different ways of getting ready to shoot and very few of them involve shooting the breeze with random folks. Hell, a lot of them do a full-match visualization type thing where they may as well be on another planet.

If you guys think practical pistol folks are touchy, you should go to an olympic smallbore match sometime and try to start conversations. You will be cursed out in many languages. The same goes for even approaching another competitor's gear. It took them a damn long time to get everything just how they want it and if you look like you are going to touch something they will not be happy. That's just the way it is.

Would you jabber at Brian Urlacher and fondle his equipment before a Bears game when he was trying to get ready?

I would not, and I would not have a problem with him launching you into the stands if you tried to.

Live with it. These guys are serious about their sport.
oldbillthundercheif is offline  
Old January 20, 2008, 02:02 AM   #27
Covert Mission
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 1999
Location: West of the Pecos
Posts: 671
Lurper:

I've been to several Steel Challenges at my old home range, and watched the big dogs in action and off the line. Most of the names you mention seemed to be good guys, and have a good reputation for being decent people, and I observed that myself (and the organizers of that event spoke highly of many of those people). I know people who have taken classes with Jarrett, and rave about him. Leatham is purported to be a super nice guy. They must not think they have anything to prove (they don't!), or boast about...their accomplishments speak for themselves. Some of my pals shot the USPSA Nationals this year and had good things to say about many in the "Super Squad."

I should edit my first post in this thread and be more specific, maybe. I know there are many instructors out there who are both good teachers, accomplished professionals and good, decent people (hopefully, you know who you are). I got my BVDs in a bunch recently after hearing some first-hand stories from friends in the business, or students, who have been apalled by the bad behavior and egocentric nonsense by some big names in the tac shooting world. Some of these guys were mil spec-ops or had serious LE careers. Living in the past, maybe? I'm no shrink...don't have a clue sometimes why some people can be such frequent buttheads.
Covert Mission is offline  
Old January 20, 2008, 05:05 PM   #28
kgpcr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2005
Posts: 944
Many are legends in thier own mind. The guys i knew in the Corps that were the meat eaters were not the cocky dicks with swagger. they taught us that if you are a bad ass you dont need to prove it to any one! When we would come back from an op we would talk about it but not to talk tough but to learn and to blow off some of the steam. When we got back stateside we never talked tough and cocky. We proved to ourselves what we were and did not need to prove it to any one else. We were just good Marines, Nothing more nothing less.
__________________
Colt King Cobra .357 Colt Anaconda .44mag
Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded
XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag
Smith M&P 40
kgpcr is offline  
Old January 20, 2008, 08:44 PM   #29
Lurper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2006
Posts: 943
Todd, Rob and Brian are all close friends. I shot with all of the people I mentioned as a member of the Super Squad back when I was shooting. Todd and I used to practice in my backyard. All of the guys I mentioned have strong egos. Of all of them, perhaps myself, John Shaw and J. Michael Plaxco are the most "egotistical" (although I am nowhere near as egotistical as them lol). My passion for what I know borders on evangelicism which some people interpret to mean I am egotistical. I am also known for being blunt and upfront about things which also puts some people off. I constanly tell people (students and others) that "there may not be one way to shoot, but there is a 'best way' ." That puts some people off, but I can support that claim. I learned years ago not to even bother trying to sound modest because no matter what I said, someone always thought I had a big ego. Now I just tell people that up front. I have had students come up to me after a class and say things like " I thought you were full of **it when you were talking about some of that stuff until I saw you shoot". I'll be the first to tell you that I promote myself - if I don't, who will? To some that is egotistical, to me I just speak facts.

Having said all of that though, I am never condescending to students nor do I intimdate them or berate them like some instructors. In fact I have a good reputation as a teacher for women shooters. Behaving like you are god's gift to shooting and belittleing your students is IMHO kinda dumb and it really speaks volumes about the instructor.
Lurper is offline  
Old January 20, 2008, 09:15 PM   #30
Casimer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2007
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 1,913
Quote:
Oddly enough, the best shooters in the world usually put on the best classes (whether they have the fanciest facility or not) and can outshoot all of the so called "tactical" instructors.
I'd attended a clinic put on by Brian Zins and Andy Moody. Brian is the 8 time national BE champion and current record holder. Andy was Brian's coach in the Marine pistol team and is a record holder for (IIRC) rapid fire pistol. He also has a pretty extensive resume in small arms training for the Marines and law enforcement.

Neither of these guys portray the sort of behavior that the OP mentions. They were both friendly and courteous. The clinic is based on the Marine program. Its format provided for a lot of one-on-one consultation on the line. They were working directly w/ shooters who possessed a range of capabilities. Both of them were pretty firm about enforcing certain fundamentals, and would call you on mistakes in the class sessions. But they did this in a way that didn't embarrass anyone.
Casimer is offline  
Old January 21, 2008, 12:41 AM   #31
USMCGrunt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2000
Location: Somewhere in 13T EG
Posts: 621
Quote:
FWIW, I believe ex-military instructors are dangerous, whether teaching police or civilian firearms classes. Bless the military, and I support our troops, but they acquire a "them and us" mindset, where everyone not in "our" uniform is a target to be shot. If they can't leave that behind, their ideas and their training will be very bad for a cop or an armed civilian.

Jim
Thanks for painting all of us with such a broad brush!
USMCGrunt is offline  
Old January 21, 2008, 10:28 PM   #32
kgpcr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2005
Posts: 944
USMC GRUNT
he has a point! They will never be Marines! That does not make them a reject just have not had the training we have. As for him painting with a broad brush he sure does. If he knew what it was all about he would not talk that way. I will take a Gunny with combat under his belt any day over Ayoob or what ever that guys name is. I know how the Gunny will act and he will be with me come hell or high water. I would bet my life on it time and time again. That is the guy i want to train from he has been there! Yes Military are different. We have to be.
__________________
Colt King Cobra .357 Colt Anaconda .44mag
Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded
XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag
Smith M&P 40
kgpcr is offline  
Old January 21, 2008, 11:55 PM   #33
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Oh Really

Some would argue that the "ego" of the instructor isn't as important as the students' ability to learn in spite of it. Sounds like a fair trade to me.

Last edited by Nnobby45; January 22, 2008 at 05:09 PM.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old January 22, 2008, 12:55 AM   #34
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,934
As far as the IPSC shooters, I can't think of a single master or grandmaster class shooter I've ever had a problem with. All down to earth guys. Todd Jarrett is one of the nicest, most down to earth guys I've ever met, in or out of the shooting sports.

A few of the wannabe's though...

And looking at motivation instead of personality- why would any of the world class shooters display bad attitudes anyway? Most of them sell instruction or equipment. Why discourage potential customers?
wayneinFL is offline  
Old January 22, 2008, 06:58 PM   #35
USMCGrunt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2000
Location: Somewhere in 13T EG
Posts: 621
Actually, I'm an Air Force instructor these days. Hey, somebody's got to show them how to shoot! But again, when you talk about military instructors, that term "military" encompasses all branches of the military. Does he know that we're not allowed to cuss at all in a class? One of my fellow instructors at work was critiqued by a student because he used the word "crap" in his class when he was talking about "nomenclature, characteristic and all that other crap". It depends on the audience. When it comes to cop or special operator classes, we can be a bit more crude but when it comes to say a base populace class where you have students from other areas such as services or medical and students with higher ranks (so far a 2-star is my highest ranking student) you tone it down.
As far as the "us and them" mentality, that used to be the case years ago during the cold war era. Today when you have to consider non-combatants, rules of engagement and LOAC, our shooters can't develop that mentality. Obviously that poster has either never been in a military class or has been in one so long ago that he's dealing with dated information.
USMCGrunt is offline  
Old January 23, 2008, 01:18 PM   #36
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
I will take a Gunny with combat under his belt any day over Ayoob or what ever that guys name is.
I think the issue may be one of what do you want to learn? If I want to learn combat tactics and techniques, I may look for that well-qualified and experienced combat vet. But if I am wanting to learn the legal issues and tactical problems of concealed carry in the city, Ayoob would probably be the better choice. It is a matter of matching up the instructor with your needs. There are some LSHD egomaniac instructor out there that I don't mind recommending at all to people that are looking for a type of training. But someone looking for a different set of skills I might advise them to stay very far away and find somebody else.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old January 23, 2008, 01:38 PM   #37
Lurper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2006
Posts: 943
Quote:
I will take a Gunny with combat under his belt any day over Ayoob or what ever that guys name is.
If you want to learn how to fight a war, that is fine. But if you want to learn skills that apply to civilians that's a different story. Very little of what we learn in the military carries over to "combat" as it applies to civilians. As DA pointed out, this is even more important if you want to learn the legal aspect and precedents.
Lurper is offline  
Old January 23, 2008, 07:45 PM   #38
kgpcr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2005
Posts: 944
You are so right. One teaches law and the other teaches how to stay alive. Two totaly different things.
__________________
Colt King Cobra .357 Colt Anaconda .44mag
Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded
XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag
Smith M&P 40
kgpcr is offline  
Old January 23, 2008, 10:33 PM   #39
Derius_T
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2004
Location: South West OHIO (boondocks)
Posts: 1,337
kgpcr wrote:

Quote:
You are so right. One teaches law and the other teaches how to stay alive. Two totaly different things.
The point is, that military combat tactics and civilian sport shooters, are two totally different creatures. If you want to learn combat, go with the gunney by all means, but if you want to learn technique ans skill as it pertains to competition shooting, you go to a competition shooter.

Most of the world class competition marksmen are faster, more accurate, and have a superior knowledge of their chosen weapons. There are not many people from ANY profession who can "out shoot" these guys in their environment.

Now stick them in a "combat" environment, and their skills would most likely not count for much, but that does not detract from their superior skill with a firearm when it comes to competition shooting. Not many gunnies would out shoot them on their turf.
Derius_T is offline  
Old January 24, 2008, 12:29 AM   #40
Lurper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2006
Posts: 943
Quote:
One teaches law and the other teaches how to stay alive. Two totaly different things.
Two totally different things: combat as it applies to the Gunny and combat as it applies to ccw holders. What the Gunny learned in Nam or the big sandbox bears no relevance to what John Q needs. The military and LE communities have always lagged behind the civilan community when it comes to pistolcraft. A pistol is a secondary weapon for the military, the rules of engagement, tactics, technique, equipment and even the battlefield are different. The legal aspect is another aspect of the battlefield for John Q. Being alive is the main objective, being alive and in prison for 30 years is a far distant second even though it's still better than dead.

Quote:
Most of the world class competition marksmen are faster, more accurate, and have a superior knowledge of their chosen weapons. There are not many people from ANY profession who can "out shoot" them
The sentence should stop there. I always have to laugh when I hear someone say "Rob Leatham might be great on the 'sqaure range' but put him on the street and he aint sh**!" What a crock, as if by some magical power his shooting ability fades if he isn't on the range. I've beat Rob on occasion, but I'd rather face any Gunny anytime than face Rob in a gunfight.
Lurper is offline  
Old January 24, 2008, 01:18 AM   #41
TexasSeaRay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 810
Quote:
he has a point! They will never be Marines! That does not make them a reject just have not had the training we have. As for him painting with a broad brush he sure does. If he knew what it was all about he would not talk that way. I will take a Gunny with combat under his belt any day over Ayoob or what ever that guys name is. I know how the Gunny will act and he will be with me come hell or high water. I would bet my life on it time and time again. That is the guy i want to train from he has been there! Yes Military are different. We have to be.
I accompanied a couple, who are friends with my wife and myself, to one of these hotdog, expensive training schools. Couple of the instructors came out, introduced themselves and regaled us with all their qualifications, teaching experience and how many "SEALs, Green Berets, Delta operators, Air Force parajumpers, Rangers, SWAT teams, task forces, HRT, USMS SOG, et al" they've trained.

I asked them one question: "That's all fine and dandy, but what have YOU done on the battlefied or street when it counted?"

Silence.

Then the predictable "Well, that's not what's important, what's important is. . ." blah blah blah.

We left.

Good instructors impress you with good instruction, solid techniques and honest answers--even if those answers occasionally include the words, "I don't know."

Bad instructors try to impress you with fancy "tactical" words and phrases, name-dropping and credentials.

That's why if at all possible, I'll refer a military/LE instructor who's smelled gunsmoke and lived to tell about it over one who hasn't. They have a perspective that is simply not possible to have without having experienced what they have.

Jeff
__________________
If every single gun owner belonged to the NRA as well as their respective state rifle/gun association, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today.

So to those of you who are members of neither, thanks for nothing.
TexasSeaRay is offline  
Old January 24, 2008, 06:01 AM   #42
STLRN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 1999
Location: USA
Posts: 1,163
Quote:
I always have to laugh when I hear someone say "Rob Leatham might be great on the 'sqaure range' but put him on the street and he aint sh**!" What a crock, as if by some magical power his shooting ability fades if he isn't on the range.
I know of a reserve CWO who shot on the Marine Corps pistol team, who missed a guy at under 10 meters with his M9. The guy was an awesome shot at the range, normally shot in the 398-400 range out 400 on qualification, but throw some stress in, the guy shooting back and moving and even the best shots loose allot of their ability.
__________________
God truly fights on the side with the best artillery
STLRN is offline  
Old January 24, 2008, 08:28 AM   #43
Derius_T
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2004
Location: South West OHIO (boondocks)
Posts: 1,337
Lurper wrote:

Quote:
The sentence should stop there. I always have to laugh when I hear someone say "Rob Leatham might be great on the 'sqaure range' but put him on the street and he aint sh**!" What a crock, as if by some magical power his shooting ability fades if he isn't on the range. I've beat Rob on occasion, but I'd rather face any Gunny anytime than face Rob in a gunfight.
lol. I know what you are saying, and I wasn't trying to imply that at all. But that being said, alot of your "civilian" shooters I could see having trouble in a "military engagement" scenario. Its all different there. I think the mindset would be affected so as to affect the ability to use the ability as it were....

(if you follow all that I'm truely impressed, cuz I'm not even sure I do!)
Derius_T is offline  
Old January 24, 2008, 11:22 PM   #44
kgpcr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2005
Posts: 944
When the feecal matter hits the blades i will take the guy with combat training. You have to be able to think under extreme stress and be able to opperate. Rob Latham is a hell of a shot and i would not want to face him in a gun fight!!! On the same hand if i had to go into a gun fight i would rather go with the Gunny! I know for damn sure he is not going to run when it gets thick! Gun skills are only one part of the package, very important but only one part
__________________
Colt King Cobra .357 Colt Anaconda .44mag
Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded
XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag
Smith M&P 40
kgpcr is offline  
Old January 25, 2008, 11:17 AM   #45
easyG
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2004
Location: Right here!
Posts: 972
Quote:
I will take a Gunny with combat under his belt any day over Ayoob or what ever that guys name is.
I'm always a little uncomfortable when folks heap praise upon "combat vets".

The very phrase "combat vet" can mean a whole lot of different things....
The combat vet could be a true warrior in every sense of the word; someone who has survived numerous battles and who has met and destroyed the enemy time and time again.
Or it could mean the guy who was in a combat theater but was never actually under enemy fire.

Take the Field Artillery for example.....traditionally, when it come to ground forces (especially before the invention of aircraft), few folks killed more of the enemy than the artillery....that's why Arty is still called the "king of the battle" even today....but in quite a few battles the red-legs themselves were not in direct danger, especially when they were hammering an enemy force that did not have artillery of their own to return fire.

And what about those on the receiving end of the artillery barrage?
Many a Soldier and many a Marine are considered "combat vets" simply because they survived such a barrage.
But all they did was dig in, and hold on, and were lucky enough to not get killed.

And some combat vets did see and kill the enemy and survive the battle, but not necessarily because they were great warriors themselves, but because they were just lucky enough to be in the company of some truely great warrior comrades when the battle erupted.

Now don't misunderstand me....I'm certainly not bashing combat vets, or even those military personnel who never had the chance to be in combat.
What I'm saying is this: just because someone is a "combat vet", they don't instantly win my trust or admiration.
And there are many cops on the streets who have experienced far worse than many "combat vets".


EasyG
(and yes, I'm a "combat vet")
easyG is offline  
Old January 25, 2008, 12:38 PM   #46
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 11,445
Quote:
Why does it seem like more than a few "name" instructors have inordinately large, or even massive, egos?
Without those massive egos, the sheer pressure and stress of getting in front of all of us and spouting on and on about how they will turn us into combat-ready anti-terrorists, along with the constant rejection and ridicule from people who don't buy into their fear-mongering, would crush their psyches. Of course there are enough people who will pay these trainers massive amounts of cash and sing their praises that any rejection is seen as us being misguided.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Taylor Machine
Scorch is offline  
Old January 25, 2008, 02:34 PM   #47
Derius_T
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2004
Location: South West OHIO (boondocks)
Posts: 1,337
easyg wrote:

Quote:
Now don't misunderstand me....I'm certainly not bashing combat vets, or even those military personnel who never had the chance to be in combat. What I'm saying is this: just because someone is a "combat vet", they don't instantly win my trust or admiration. And there are many cops on the streets who have experienced far worse than many "combat vets".
I think I have to agree with that whole-heartedly. (As well as most of the rest of your message for that matter)

I myself personally know veterans who hardly ever even held a rifle, let alone lept naked over baracades, knife in teeth, facing down the hordes. (although I know a few of those too! well, maybe not the naked part. )

That being said, to blindly place your life in the hands of ANYONE, based on your perceived notion of their ability, is taking a huge risk. Give me a guy who I KNOW FOR A FACT, that if he gets the shot, he will put the BG down post haste. Vet, cop, or armchair warrior.

I'm a combat vet myself, but I'm no Mack Bolan. (thats for you 70's guys)
I'm no Spartan either. I WILL RETREAT, if me or mine is not in immediate danger to do so. I will save them at any cost, call me what you will. Now, if the only way they live is if I stand and take whatever comes, while they run, then there I stand. God Himself would have to move me. But now I blather on....
Derius_T is offline  
Old January 25, 2008, 03:43 PM   #48
Stevie-Ray
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,518
Quote:
Does he know that we're not allowed to cuss at all in a class? One of my fellow instructors at work was critiqued by a student because he used the word "crap" in his class when he was talking about "nomenclature, characteristic and all that other crap".
Are you kidding me? Crap, between "zero tolerance" and "political correctness" I don't know which is going to be first to destroy this country.

I haven't taken any premium classes but, my CCW instructor was, I thought, a little tyrannical in that he screamed at us to keep quiet while he was giving personal instruction to a single student, using words like "teaching kindergarten." Most of us were zooming through the class as we weren't learning much more than we already knew through various knowledge bases like this or previous classes. Lets face it, probably most of us simply need the signed paper and new laws that have taken effect, many not even the latter when they keep up on such things. You are not going to keep a class of >100 perfectly quiet when they are not even hearing what is being said. As I saw the instructor in later years after the class, he was a quite decent guy with valuable information on tap for the asking. I later chalked the class up to just one of his bad days. It's possible that some or many of these instructors are simply having bad days. After all, the squeaky wheel gets the grease and criticism seems far louder than praise in any aspect of life. Just a thought.

Personally, I would love to attend one of Mas Ayoob's classes. Maybe someday.
__________________
Stevie-Ray
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old January 30, 2008, 12:36 PM   #49
Chui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2004
Posts: 1,657
Well, I can assure you that Andy Stanford is most certainly NOT one of the egomaniacal types you describe - and I've been a student in several who are just as you describe.

In fact, Andy does NOT self-proclaim to be one of the "high speed, low drag" types yet he is a phenomenal instructor. I call him an "Earth Man" as opposed to the "Super Men" who I sense are rather dark souls. Don't get me wrong, I actively seek their experience, too, but I dispose of the "attitude" which ranges from bigotry, arrogance, pride and delusion for some that I've experienced and from others which I received second hand.

I think I've said enough. Carry on.
__________________
"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." ~ William Pitt, 1783
Chui is offline  
Old January 30, 2008, 01:49 PM   #50
Chui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2004
Posts: 1,657
I had the opportunity to meet Jerry Miculek at a S&W Day event at my local toy store. He stated he was from Lafayette, LA and I told him I was from Baton Rouge, LA. We sat and talked off and on for several hours. When he asked what I liked and why he figured I was an engineer and we began to speak design features, etc and we spoke for an hour. He's a topnotch guy.

Lurper, I'd love to spend time with you, too, man. I think you'd have lots to tell! And I'd be all ears! :thumbsup:
__________________
"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." ~ William Pitt, 1783
Chui is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.18957 seconds with 7 queries