ALERT!! Now is the time for all good citizens to come to the aid of their County!

sumabich · June 9, 2000, 05:40 PM

Since I discovered the ability to find deals on guns and ammo on line I haven't frequented my local shops for a few months. I saw a gun the other night that I thought might be a cost effective replacement for the Colt 1911. Late this afternoon I stopped in at one of my local haunts who probably sells more guns than any other in our small town. As I walked in and took one look I knew something was wrong. He usually has 5 glass counters full of various hand guns and is usually the first to have new models. One, ONE lousy counter with 60% old model S/W. I asked what was up. He said he had been audited for 3 days by the ATF going back 6 years (laying the records on top of 3 counters and scaring all his customers away). They found nothing wrong with the record keeping (David's wife is meticulous)but before they left they told him the following. 1. ATF would be hiring 800 new enforcement agents so he could expect more audits, 2. he would have to restrict all access within so many feet of the guns to those under 18, 3. He would have to store all firearms and ammo in an APPROVED ATF Safe at night (would take him at least 3 hours to do that if he knew what was approved), 4. He would have to show proof of having a Million dollars in liability insurance. At present he has 100,000 which costs him $1,700 per year. He got an estimate for 1 million from his insurance agent and the cost would be nearly $10,000. David told me these rules would go into effect before the end of the year. He said "I give up". "The hell of it is I can't even sell those GD Smiths to anyone even at cost, nobody will buy them"!

These are all rules promulgated by the executive branch and unless legislative action gets taken specifically to stop this crap it won't stop. They're making sure they close the small FFL down by making it too expensive to do business. I'm so

I'm

!!! What can we do to stop this? Technically the ATF is interferring with Interstate Commerce by imposing rules that favor the big dealers, but once they get it down to just a few they will have fewer targets to harrass. Has anyone else expressed this? Everyone, check your dealers and see what they say, see if they are aware of this. I am outraged and all gunowners should be. David said he called the other dealers in town and no one knew a thing about it. He was amazed because he is getting alerts from the NRA. I am ready for suggestions. But whatever we do we need to mount a massive effort that involves all the various groups.

Liberty requires vigilance!

Shin-Tao · June 9, 2000, 07:26 PM

All right, Gentlemen! There's well over 5,000 of us here. Get started writing, e-mailing and faxing your reps. Use the NRA-ILA site, or the GOA site. Right now, let's ALL send off a volley. I just sent a bunch this week, and it won't hurt to send some more.

Shin-Tao · June 9, 2000, 08:09 PM

Ahem?!

Shin-Tao · June 9, 2000, 09:59 PM

Freedom Arms is now laying-off scores of employees due to massive legal costs...
One by one they'll fold.
Are we doing enough?
Is it that difficult to donate funds to those fighting for our rights? (many to choose from)
Is it that difficult to write some letter, send some faxes?

sumabich · June 9, 2000, 10:39 PM

For any of you reading this, my ISP timed out on me and I wound up with a double post. I have e-mailed two of our moderators and asked them to delete one. Shin-Tao, as they say down here "I don't care what they say about you, you're alright"! On the other post they're telling me to have him contact his "congress critters". Unless we get some of them to sponsor a "no more laws against sales,buying and owning of guns" this won't help a bit. David has given up. But he did say that as soon as he was out of the gun business he plans to get vocal. Seems he's afraid of repercussions at this point if he does. I posted this because I saw this technique as typical of the current Clinton mind set. If he can't get it through Congress he writes an executive order,or orders higher controls through the executive branch. Wake up everyone, this is what the private gun owner will face too! Shin-Toa, "You Da Man"! Thanks Buddy!

Blueyedog · June 9, 2000, 10:50 PM

I have written and called and encouraged others to do the same. I will continue to do this, but we need more. Every letter I write, I receive a patronizing reply that states that "Congressman So-n-So supports the 2nd Amendment and private gun ownership ..." then votes with the rest of the anti-human-rights group the next time gun control legislation is up.

So can anyone tell me what else we can be doing?

------------------
Refuse to be a "helpless" victim.
Knowing Your Rights WAGC in Indiana
Come have some fun at theTFL End of Summer Meet, August 12th & 13th, 2000

John/az2 · June 9, 2000, 10:59 PM

I can't post the other solution...

JimDiver · June 9, 2000, 11:17 PM

Sumabich: What gun shop is this? If they found nothing wrong with his shop, what happened to the other guns??

Blueyedog: I have some ideas as to what to do, but i doubt that they would be smiled upon by the majority. We can donate all we like, but until we get the courts to start overturning these laws and stop new laws from being passed by the socialists, we will be fighting a loosing battle.

If anyone wants my unpopular ideas, I will post them. Otherwise, we pretty much are fubar. There is no real way to defend against incrimentalism but by vigalance.

CassidyGT · June 9, 2000, 11:17 PM

I can't say either.

Viva La Resistance!!!

------------------
Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/...nsite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

John Marshall · June 10, 2000, 12:13 AM

Except for the 800 new enforcement agents, each one of those items mentioned by the ATF goons are stipulations of the S&W/Clinton/Cuomo deal. If any dealer divests himself of S&W inventory, none of those rules applies, legally. If a dealer does not do business with a party to that contractual farce, that dealer is not a party to it himself and not bound by it's terms.

This is my understanding. An attorney may tell me I'm all wet.

None of the forgoing lets us out of our obligation to do everything in our power to stop the madness.

------------------
If you're not a little upset with the way the world is going, you're not paying attention.

MikeK · June 10, 2000, 01:14 AM

Earlier this year, Valley Guns of Baltimore MD was 'audited' by the BATF and they requested all of their records for the past x years. They won the case, even with an anti-gun judge. It was on the NRA Web page for a while. I know the lawyer who handled the case and will probably see him Tuesday night. Send me some more info and I may be able to hook them up, or contact the NRA. They supported Valley Guns.

sumabich · June 10, 2000, 08:43 AM

Mike K, if you get a chance e mail me direct, my email address is posted here. I will be happy to fill in the details. Thank you to all who have responded already. To answer a few of the questions raised already "yes,no,yes,yes" Ok, I'm being a smart-ash! You are correct in the S/W deal, but according to David they didn't even mention it was because he had S/W (pre agreement guns)they were applying the rules for everything! One could argue that depending upon the agent or jurisdiction the interpretation might be different, but the point is that this is their interpretation and that is what he has to deal with. The implications are easy to see that if all agents have this interpretation it will in effect close down all small dealers as well as gunshows due to economics. David has made up his mind to quit and I don't think that decision can be changed. He feels he will have a better chance fighting as a private citizen because of the implied threat if he has his FFL. He like most small dealers, don't have the money to spend on a protracted legal defense and is worried that he would be dealing with federal charges if he tries to do anything at this point. I gave him this link yesterday and tried to let him know he was not alone in this but I don't think words are going to change this situation. I hope that better minds will prevail on this one. I wanted to make all aware of what's comming for all of us in the near future. Also want you all to check with your dealers to see if we have a pattern shaping up here. I think we would have a better case with the legislature if we can show they are applying these rules in other parts of the country.

Shin-Tao · June 10, 2000, 09:31 AM

I think it my be a good idea in our letters to mention that gun owners are usualy very grateful for actions that preserve their rights. Mention that gun owners would actively support any politico that took a real stand for The Second.
At this point all other policy issues should be secondary. Without RKBA the political class will be even less inclined to bother finding out what the citizenry desires.
The struggle to preserve our right to firearms ownership, we should ignore party lines. ANY politico who takes a stand should be supported(rewarded)for his/her courage. It no longer matters if it is a Republican or a Democrat. The differances between these two parties are insignificant anyway.

DHH · June 10, 2000, 09:48 AM

Do any of you think that this action could be connected to this?
http://www.gocarolinas.com/news/char...ask_force.html

Seems to be an odd coincidence.

Dave

Dennis · June 10, 2000, 10:31 AM

From the above article,

"They plan to ask for about a half million dollars in funding next year to support their operations against domestic terrorism."

I wonder if "domestic terrorism" consists of any action by two or more people considered a threat to the careers of those in the current oligarchy.

We need to vote these buggerin' buggers out of office.

Franklin W. Dixon · June 10, 2000, 04:33 PM

Egads. Look sharp, you blokes. Sound the general alarm. Battle stations everyone. Warn the sheeple. There may be "patriots" lurking about! Horrors

Here's my fave:"But it may be the price required to stay both free and safe from American terrorism." NEWSPEAK at its finest.
Wonder what other "prices" we're going to be asked to pay in the next few years.

Ok, yes, like some postal workers, some patriots can be whackos too. But depending on which suit is doing the talking, every person who posts here could potentially be a "domestic terrorist." I can see the story now:

Last night members of the FBIs elite domestic counterterrorism squad seized a number of high-powered assault and sniper rifles and customized handguns in a raid on a home near Charlotte.

Numerous scoped rifles in military calibers were taken, as well as several pistols whose sights and triggers had been professionally modified to "shoot more accurately and quickly," enabling a reasonably skilled gunman to hit multiple targets in a very short period of time.

Although quickly isolated from the press, this reporter managed to talk to one of the men who had been in the house at the time of the raid: "Uh, a few members of our hunting club came over to get Randy to tap for some scope mounts before deer season. He was also lettin us use his reloading equipment. We had finished mounting the scopes and were watching a bad John Candy movie on Showtime when--" At this point, the interview was ended by agents.

Federal sources say a "sizeable" amount of reloading equipment, including numerous cans of highly explosive and dangerous gunpowder, were also seized.

When asked what led police and federal agents to the comfortable $200,000 home in the upscale suburb, SWAT captain I P Frehley told this reporter, "A college student delivering 10 large pizzas reported seeing many weapons in the home while delivering the order that included Canadian bacon, sausage, and extra cheese. The student reported hearing what he thought was many people in the house, as though some large gathering was taking place."

When asked if there was a legitimate purpose for an ordinary citizen's stockpiling weapons and ammunition, Frehley said he didn't know and couldn't comment further. "But the Canadian bacon has us worried," Frehley went on to say. "We don't even know what Canadian bacon is. I mean, it ain't, you know, bacon. And the student reported hearing what he thought was Canadian French being spoken in the house. We've sent the alleged bacon to Quantico for analysis, along with the pizza boy."

Also seized in the raid were a copy of the radical, anti-government manifesto Unintended Consequences, which advocates murdering federal employees, a worn Confederate battle flag, and the resident's video collection which includes such titles as "Red Dawn," the infamous Tonya Harding x-rated "Honeymoon tape," "300 Yard Shots for Whitetails," and "Waco: Rules of Engagement."

[This message has been edited by Franklin W. Dixon (edited June 10, 2000).]

Shin-Tao · June 10, 2000, 07:23 PM

You got it, Franklin. Any of us could be raided at anytime and painted as a terrorist.

KAC556 · June 10, 2000, 10:03 PM

"SWAT captain I P Frehley??" Whats with the gag name?

DHH · June 10, 2000, 10:21 PM

The reason I thought there might be a connection to the original topic:

1. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What makes it more difficult is that often the most dangerous groups are small, making them tough to detect in the growing Charlotte region.[/quote]

Maybe by checking gun sales records we can identify these small groups? Also, tighten up the gun supply to stop further growth of groups?

2. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The FBI is about to announce a domestic terrorism task force to protect Charlotte and Western North Carolina. [/quote]

It appeared to me that the shop mentioned might be in this target area.

3.One of my favorite lines: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"We know about certain organizations that are right up to the line. Those we'll focus our resources on," said FBI agent Chris Swecker.[/quote]

What is this line? Is it based on a consistent set of standards, or does it move to suit the FBI?

4. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The FBI says their task force will include the Charlotte-Mecklenburg police force. They will bring in additional agents as well.[/quote]

Talk about federal control of local forces. Does anyone believe that the local police will be in charge?

5. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Agents say Charlotte could be a target for terrorists, not because it is a major banking center, but because it is so close to where militia groups gather.[/quote]

Can anyone from NC tell me where this gathering point is? I never knew that "militia groups" gather in a specified area. This may be important information in the future.

Dave

[This message has been edited by DHH (edited June 10, 2000).]

DHH · June 10, 2000, 10:22 PM

Sorry.

[This message has been edited by DHH (edited June 10, 2000).]

sumabich · June 11, 2000, 01:05 PM

DHH, Interesting thought. I think the real reason for the "task (strike)force" is because of the abortion bomber who gave them the black eye. He is supposedly still wandering around the mountains. I don't think groups have been helping him just mountain folks who tend to mind their own business, don't trust any stranger and will feed someone in need. Why Charlotte? Asheville is closer to where he is. Yes Shelby is less than 45 minutes from (little Atlanta) Charlotte. I also think any legit Milita or small group won't be buying their guns from the local gunshop. But I do agree, they were looking for something, maybe some specific guns. Now the question is which ones? Who is the "lucky" owner? I don't know, but I do know they made quite a point in our town.

Franklin W. Dixon · June 11, 2000, 03:57 PM

KAC556

Sorry. No slight toward any SWAT officers intended. It was just the first name that popped into my head. I have plenty of respect for most of the LEOs I know.

Shin-Tao · June 13, 2000, 09:54 AM

Okay, let me bring this back up here. Arguing with a Socialist has started my blood flowing.

Now then. I hate to beat a dead horse, but Freedom is kind of important to me. If it wasn't I wouldn't have enlisted in the Marine Corps.

I am asking for those that are writing snail-mail to politicos and donating to RKBA orgs, fighting in general, to sound-off, right here, right now.
Put down that racegun 1911 and do something to protect your right to buy another in the future!

George Hill · June 13, 2000, 05:27 PM

I am not anti law enforcement, but I am anti ATF. And let me tell all you ATF Agents lurking around here why.
1. I hate big government that has to get into every oriface in one's body.
2. The BATF is outlived it's usefulness. Seriously.
3. The BATF is imposing illegal laws by these actions without the consent of the American People.

Personally, while I know a couple agents that are indeed good men - as a whole I consider the ATF to be bandits, henchmen, lackies, and thugs.
Someting needs to be done to put the reins on these vomitous offenders of liberty.
I am not advocating viollence - I am advocating grass-root action. Write your lawyers, your local poli-tic-tians, Senators, and the President.
Write your newspapers, favorite magazines and editors... call in to talk shows...
FIGHT with Words!

If you collect some email address - you only have to write once... so see - its easy!

JUST DO IT!

------------------
You might laugh in the face of FEAR... but unless your armed, its a nervous, unconvincing, little laugh.

Futo Inu · June 13, 2000, 06:22 PM

As is so frequently the case in many people's and small business owner's lives, the fundamental problem is they are not willing to hire, or don't know they can hire, a good lawyer to fight this kind of crap if it's illegal. No matter that you SHOULDN'T have to fight it. People and governments trample on other people's rights CONSTANTLY. Needing lawyers is a fact of life, and an unavoidable cost of doing business. He should get a good lawyer and fight like hell (if his business if profitable). If he hasn't budgeted for this, and no rainy day money, that's unfortunate...

June 10, 2000, 10:21 PM	#19
DHH Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 1999 Location: PA Posts: 115	The reason I thought there might be a connection to the original topic: 1. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What makes it more difficult is that often the most dangerous groups are small, making them tough to detect in the growing Charlotte region.[/quote] Maybe by checking gun sales records we can identify these small groups? Also, tighten up the gun supply to stop further growth of groups? 2. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The FBI is about to announce a domestic terrorism task force to protect Charlotte and Western North Carolina. [/quote] It appeared to me that the shop mentioned might be in this target area. 3.One of my favorite lines: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"We know about certain organizations that are right up to the line. Those we'll focus our resources on," said FBI agent Chris Swecker.[/quote] What is this line? Is it based on a consistent set of standards, or does it move to suit the FBI? 4. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The FBI says their task force will include the Charlotte-Mecklenburg police force. They will bring in additional agents as well.[/quote] Talk about federal control of local forces. Does anyone believe that the local police will be in charge? 5. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Agents say Charlotte could be a target for terrorists, not because it is a major banking center, but because it is so close to where militia groups gather.[/quote] Can anyone from NC tell me where this gathering point is? I never knew that "militia groups" gather in a specified area. This may be important information in the future. Dave [This message has been edited by DHH (edited June 10, 2000).]

June 9, 2000, 05:40 PM	#1
sumabich Junior member Join Date: April 19, 2000 Location: NC,USA Posts: 862	Since I discovered the ability to find deals on guns and ammo on line I haven't frequented my local shops for a few months. I saw a gun the other night that I thought might be a cost effective replacement for the Colt 1911. Late this afternoon I stopped in at one of my local haunts who probably sells more guns than any other in our small town. As I walked in and took one look I knew something was wrong. He usually has 5 glass counters full of various hand guns and is usually the first to have new models. One, ONE lousy counter with 60% old model S/W. I asked what was up. He said he had been audited for 3 days by the ATF going back 6 years (laying the records on top of 3 counters and scaring all his customers away). They found nothing wrong with the record keeping (David's wife is meticulous)but before they left they told him the following. 1. ATF would be hiring 800 new enforcement agents so he could expect more audits, 2. he would have to restrict all access within so many feet of the guns to those under 18, 3. He would have to store all firearms and ammo in an APPROVED ATF Safe at night (would take him at least 3 hours to do that if he knew what was approved), 4. He would have to show proof of having a Million dollars in liability insurance. At present he has 100,000 which costs him $1,700 per year. He got an estimate for 1 million from his insurance agent and the cost would be nearly $10,000. David told me these rules would go into effect before the end of the year. He said "I give up". "The hell of it is I can't even sell those GD Smiths to anyone even at cost, nobody will buy them"! These are all rules promulgated by the executive branch and unless legislative action gets taken specifically to stop this crap it won't stop. They're making sure they close the small FFL down by making it too expensive to do business. I'm so I'm !!! What can we do to stop this? Technically the ATF is interferring with Interstate Commerce by imposing rules that favor the big dealers, but once they get it down to just a few they will have fewer targets to harrass. Has anyone else expressed this? Everyone, check your dealers and see what they say, see if they are aware of this. I am outraged and all gunowners should be. David said he called the other dealers in town and no one knew a thing about it. He was amazed because he is getting alerts from the NRA. I am ready for suggestions. But whatever we do we need to mount a massive effort that involves all the various groups. Liberty requires vigilance!

June 9, 2000, 07:26 PM	#2
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	All right, Gentlemen! There's well over 5,000 of us here. Get started writing, e-mailing and faxing your reps. Use the NRA-ILA site, or the GOA site. Right now, let's ALL send off a volley. I just sent a bunch this week, and it won't hurt to send some more.

June 9, 2000, 08:09 PM	#3
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	Ahem?!

June 9, 2000, 09:59 PM	#4
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	Freedom Arms is now laying-off scores of employees due to massive legal costs... One by one they'll fold. Are we doing enough? Is it that difficult to donate funds to those fighting for our rights? (many to choose from) Is it that difficult to write some letter, send some faxes?

June 9, 2000, 10:39 PM	#5
sumabich Junior member Join Date: April 19, 2000 Location: NC,USA Posts: 862	For any of you reading this, my ISP timed out on me and I wound up with a double post. I have e-mailed two of our moderators and asked them to delete one. Shin-Tao, as they say down here "I don't care what they say about you, you're alright"! On the other post they're telling me to have him contact his "congress critters". Unless we get some of them to sponsor a "no more laws against sales,buying and owning of guns" this won't help a bit. David has given up. But he did say that as soon as he was out of the gun business he plans to get vocal. Seems he's afraid of repercussions at this point if he does. I posted this because I saw this technique as typical of the current Clinton mind set. If he can't get it through Congress he writes an executive order,or orders higher controls through the executive branch. Wake up everyone, this is what the private gun owner will face too! Shin-Toa, "You Da Man"! Thanks Buddy!

June 9, 2000, 10:50 PM	#6
Blueyedog Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 1999 Location: Indiana Posts: 460	I have written and called and encouraged others to do the same. I will continue to do this, but we need more. Every letter I write, I receive a patronizing reply that states that "Congressman So-n-So supports the 2nd Amendment and private gun ownership ..." then votes with the rest of the anti-human-rights group the next time gun control legislation is up. So can anyone tell me what else we can be doing? ------------------ Refuse to be a "helpless" victim. Knowing Your Rights WAGC in Indiana Come have some fun at theTFL End of Summer Meet, August 12th & 13th, 2000

June 9, 2000, 10:59 PM	#7
John/az2 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 1999 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,729	I can't post the other solution...

June 9, 2000, 11:17 PM	#8
JimDiver Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2000 Location: San Jose, PRK Posts: 545	Sumabich: What gun shop is this? If they found nothing wrong with his shop, what happened to the other guns?? Blueyedog: I have some ideas as to what to do, but i doubt that they would be smiled upon by the majority. We can donate all we like, but until we get the courts to start overturning these laws and stop new laws from being passed by the socialists, we will be fighting a loosing battle. If anyone wants my unpopular ideas, I will post them. Otherwise, we pretty much are fubar. There is no real way to defend against incrimentalism but by vigalance.

June 9, 2000, 11:17 PM	#9
CassidyGT Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 1999 Location: South PA, USA Posts: 402	I can't say either. Viva La Resistance!!! ------------------ Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN) MD C.A.N.OP tbellomo@home.com http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/...nsite/can.html www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." --Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

June 10, 2000, 12:13 AM	#10
John Marshall Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2000 Posts: 434	Except for the 800 new enforcement agents, each one of those items mentioned by the ATF goons are stipulations of the S&W/Clinton/Cuomo deal. If any dealer divests himself of S&W inventory, none of those rules applies, legally. If a dealer does not do business with a party to that contractual farce, that dealer is not a party to it himself and not bound by it's terms. This is my understanding. An attorney may tell me I'm all wet. None of the forgoing lets us out of our obligation to do everything in our power to stop the madness. ------------------ If you're not a little upset with the way the world is going, you're not paying attention.

June 10, 2000, 01:14 AM	#11
MikeK Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2000 Location: MD Posts: 566	Earlier this year, Valley Guns of Baltimore MD was 'audited' by the BATF and they requested all of their records for the past x years. They won the case, even with an anti-gun judge. It was on the NRA Web page for a while. I know the lawyer who handled the case and will probably see him Tuesday night. Send me some more info and I may be able to hook them up, or contact the NRA. They supported Valley Guns.

June 10, 2000, 08:43 AM	#12
sumabich Junior member Join Date: April 19, 2000 Location: NC,USA Posts: 862	Mike K, if you get a chance e mail me direct, my email address is posted here. I will be happy to fill in the details. Thank you to all who have responded already. To answer a few of the questions raised already "yes,no,yes,yes" Ok, I'm being a smart-ash! You are correct in the S/W deal, but according to David they didn't even mention it was because he had S/W (pre agreement guns)they were applying the rules for everything! One could argue that depending upon the agent or jurisdiction the interpretation might be different, but the point is that this is their interpretation and that is what he has to deal with. The implications are easy to see that if all agents have this interpretation it will in effect close down all small dealers as well as gunshows due to economics. David has made up his mind to quit and I don't think that decision can be changed. He feels he will have a better chance fighting as a private citizen because of the implied threat if he has his FFL. He like most small dealers, don't have the money to spend on a protracted legal defense and is worried that he would be dealing with federal charges if he tries to do anything at this point. I gave him this link yesterday and tried to let him know he was not alone in this but I don't think words are going to change this situation. I hope that better minds will prevail on this one. I wanted to make all aware of what's comming for all of us in the near future. Also want you all to check with your dealers to see if we have a pattern shaping up here. I think we would have a better case with the legislature if we can show they are applying these rules in other parts of the country.

June 10, 2000, 09:31 AM	#13
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	I think it my be a good idea in our letters to mention that gun owners are usualy very grateful for actions that preserve their rights. Mention that gun owners would actively support any politico that took a real stand for The Second. At this point all other policy issues should be secondary. Without RKBA the political class will be even less inclined to bother finding out what the citizenry desires. The struggle to preserve our right to firearms ownership, we should ignore party lines. ANY politico who takes a stand should be supported(rewarded)for his/her courage. It no longer matters if it is a Republican or a Democrat. The differances between these two parties are insignificant anyway.

June 10, 2000, 09:48 AM	#14
DHH Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 1999 Location: PA Posts: 115	Do any of you think that this action could be connected to this? http://www.gocarolinas.com/news/char...ask_force.html Seems to be an odd coincidence. Dave

June 10, 2000, 10:31 AM	#15
Dennis Staff Emeritus Join Date: November 23, 1998 Location: a small forest in Texas Posts: 7,078	From the above article, "They plan to ask for about a half million dollars in funding next year to support their operations against domestic terrorism." I wonder if "domestic terrorism" consists of any action by two or more people considered a threat to the careers of those in the current oligarchy. We need to vote these buggerin' buggers out of office.

June 10, 2000, 04:33 PM	#16
Franklin W. Dixon Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Posts: 81	Egads. Look sharp, you blokes. Sound the general alarm. Battle stations everyone. Warn the sheeple. There may be "patriots" lurking about! Horrors Here's my fave:"But it may be the price required to stay both free and safe from American terrorism." NEWSPEAK at its finest. Wonder what other "prices" we're going to be asked to pay in the next few years. Ok, yes, like some postal workers, some patriots can be whackos too. But depending on which suit is doing the talking, every person who posts here could potentially be a "domestic terrorist." I can see the story now: Last night members of the FBIs elite domestic counterterrorism squad seized a number of high-powered assault and sniper rifles and customized handguns in a raid on a home near Charlotte. Numerous scoped rifles in military calibers were taken, as well as several pistols whose sights and triggers had been professionally modified to "shoot more accurately and quickly," enabling a reasonably skilled gunman to hit multiple targets in a very short period of time. Although quickly isolated from the press, this reporter managed to talk to one of the men who had been in the house at the time of the raid: "Uh, a few members of our hunting club came over to get Randy to tap for some scope mounts before deer season. He was also lettin us use his reloading equipment. We had finished mounting the scopes and were watching a bad John Candy movie on Showtime when--" At this point, the interview was ended by agents. Federal sources say a "sizeable" amount of reloading equipment, including numerous cans of highly explosive and dangerous gunpowder, were also seized. When asked what led police and federal agents to the comfortable $200,000 home in the upscale suburb, SWAT captain I P Frehley told this reporter, "A college student delivering 10 large pizzas reported seeing many weapons in the home while delivering the order that included Canadian bacon, sausage, and extra cheese. The student reported hearing what he thought was many people in the house, as though some large gathering was taking place." When asked if there was a legitimate purpose for an ordinary citizen's stockpiling weapons and ammunition, Frehley said he didn't know and couldn't comment further. "But the Canadian bacon has us worried," Frehley went on to say. "We don't even know what Canadian bacon is. I mean, it ain't, you know, bacon. And the student reported hearing what he thought was Canadian French being spoken in the house. We've sent the alleged bacon to Quantico for analysis, along with the pizza boy." Also seized in the raid were a copy of the radical, anti-government manifesto Unintended Consequences, which advocates murdering federal employees, a worn Confederate battle flag, and the resident's video collection which includes such titles as "Red Dawn," the infamous Tonya Harding x-rated "Honeymoon tape," "300 Yard Shots for Whitetails," and "Waco: Rules of Engagement." [This message has been edited by Franklin W. Dixon (edited June 10, 2000).]

June 10, 2000, 07:23 PM	#17
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	You got it, Franklin. Any of us could be raided at anytime and painted as a terrorist.

June 10, 2000, 10:03 PM	#18
KAC556 Member Join Date: December 14, 1999 Posts: 99	"SWAT captain I P Frehley??" Whats with the gag name?

June 10, 2000, 10:22 PM	#20
DHH Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 1999 Location: PA Posts: 115	Sorry. [This message has been edited by DHH (edited June 10, 2000).]

June 11, 2000, 01:05 PM	#21
sumabich Junior member Join Date: April 19, 2000 Location: NC,USA Posts: 862	DHH, Interesting thought. I think the real reason for the "task (strike)force" is because of the abortion bomber who gave them the black eye. He is supposedly still wandering around the mountains. I don't think groups have been helping him just mountain folks who tend to mind their own business, don't trust any stranger and will feed someone in need. Why Charlotte? Asheville is closer to where he is. Yes Shelby is less than 45 minutes from (little Atlanta) Charlotte. I also think any legit Milita or small group won't be buying their guns from the local gunshop. But I do agree, they were looking for something, maybe some specific guns. Now the question is which ones? Who is the "lucky" owner? I don't know, but I do know they made quite a point in our town.

June 11, 2000, 03:57 PM	#22
Franklin W. Dixon Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Posts: 81	KAC556 Sorry. No slight toward any SWAT officers intended. It was just the first name that popped into my head. I have plenty of respect for most of the LEOs I know.

June 13, 2000, 09:54 AM	#23
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	Okay, let me bring this back up here. Arguing with a Socialist has started my blood flowing. Now then. I hate to beat a dead horse, but Freedom is kind of important to me. If it wasn't I wouldn't have enlisted in the Marine Corps. I am asking for those that are writing snail-mail to politicos and donating to RKBA orgs, fighting in general, to sound-off, right here, right now. Put down that racegun 1911 and do something to protect your right to buy another in the future!

June 13, 2000, 05:27 PM	#24
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: Lapoint, Utah Posts: 11,477	I am not anti law enforcement, but I am anti ATF. And let me tell all you ATF Agents lurking around here why. 1. I hate big government that has to get into every oriface in one's body. 2. The BATF is outlived it's usefulness. Seriously. 3. The BATF is imposing illegal laws by these actions without the consent of the American People. Personally, while I know a couple agents that are indeed good men - as a whole I consider the ATF to be bandits, henchmen, lackies, and thugs. Someting needs to be done to put the reins on these vomitous offenders of liberty. I am not advocating viollence - I am advocating grass-root action. Write your lawyers, your local poli-tic-tians, Senators, and the President. Write your newspapers, favorite magazines and editors... call in to talk shows... FIGHT with Words! If you collect some email address - you only have to write once... so see - its easy! JUST DO IT! ------------------ You might laugh in the face of FEAR... but unless your armed, its a nervous, unconvincing, little laugh.

June 13, 2000, 06:22 PM	#25
Futo Inu Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 1999 Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA Posts: 3,624	As is so frequently the case in many people's and small business owner's lives, the fundamental problem is they are not willing to hire, or don't know they can hire, a good lawyer to fight this kind of crap if it's illegal. No matter that you SHOULDN'T have to fight it. People and governments trample on other people's rights CONSTANTLY. Needing lawyers is a fact of life, and an unavoidable cost of doing business. He should get a good lawyer and fight like hell (if his business if profitable). If he hasn't budgeted for this, and no rainy day money, that's unfortunate...