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Old December 24, 2007, 08:20 PM   #1
Aqeous
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MODERN DAY 9mm vs .357 vs .40 SW vs .45 ACP JHP

Todays ammunitions are getting more and more advanced. So . . . that being said take a look at this; And lets please have an intelligent discussion and not just another caliber war.

9mm 147 gr JHP 1032 f/s Ballistics Gel Expansion -0.62"
.357 SIG 125 gr JHP 1319 f/s Ballistics Gel Expansion -0.63"
.40 S&W 180 gr JHP 995 f/s Ballistics Gel Expansion -0.68"
.45 ACP 230 gr JHP 875 f/2 Ballistics Gel Expansion -0.74"

All rounds penetrated < 13"
Best penetrators__ (1) 40 S&W 180 and 9mm 147 are neck and neck (2) .45 ACP 230 gr (3/) .357 SIG

1. So the Perceivably "excellent" .45 ACP (230 gr) JHP beats out the perceivably "Wimpy" 9mm (147 gr) JHP by only 0.12".
2. The .357 SIG (125 gr) JHP beats out the 9mm by only .01" and the 40 S&W bests the 9mm by only 0.06".
3. The .40 and the 9mm were the best penetrators.

Now granted thats only laboratory science, but one cannot totally discredit laboratory research because its not "street wise". Observing these facts (when regarding JHP) they're are very little difference in the "hole" they create and thus the tissue they damage. Overall penetration is very similar. And as far as "stopping power" goes where not talking about rifle or shotgun ammunition--(a very basic law of physics is that everything has an equal and opposite reaction so if firing the gun doesn't knock the human shooter down it will not have sufficient force to knock the human target down.)
I am not pushing any one caliber over any other I am just looking at the facts at hand. That being said all things do indeed seem to be pretty darn close to equal (At least when dealing with modern day JHP) And it very much seems like choosing the best ammunition is about just that . . . choosing the best ammunition not the caliber. Check out these attachments below and you'll see what I mean. Things are different now than they were say ten to twenty years ago. So what do you think? Let the Games begin . . .
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Handgun_expanded_JHP.jpg (75.6 KB, 1635 views)
File Type: jpg Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg (100.9 KB, 1862 views)
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Old December 24, 2007, 08:43 PM   #2
JaserST4
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This hasn't been discussed intelligently before?
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Old December 24, 2007, 08:51 PM   #3
Aqeous
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Not Always . . .

No disrespect intended. Would be glade to hear any and all intelligent discussion regarding this matter. Sometimes a discussion/argument can be primarily based on circumstantial evidence and bias, that's what I meant.

By the way JaserST4, Can't help but notice how you picked out the one single statement that might have seemed at odds with your own personal perspective and yet contributed nothing to the discussion as a whole; Suppled no life experience, no data circumstantial or otherwise, or even a comment on the subject at hand, that my friend is the very nature of an an unintelligent discussion. So what was the point of even posting a reply?

Last edited by Aqeous; December 24, 2007 at 09:22 PM.
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Old December 24, 2007, 09:10 PM   #4
vox rationis
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Well, assuming that you get the adequate minimum penetration of 12 inches with all rounds, if you need .68 expansion, and only get .62, then you wish you'd had the .68, furthermore, if you needed the .74 and only got the .68, you wish you'd had the .74 Obviously the trade off is that round capacity is inversely proportional to the caliber size. But minute differences in expansion and penetration can be indeed significant, as even a difference of a few millimeters can make the difference between a quickly incapacitating wound and not. Because of this, the wisdom of "choose the largest caliber that you can shoot well", and I'd add, that gives you an acceptable round capacity, makes sense to me.
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Old December 24, 2007, 09:17 PM   #5
orionengnr
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Quote:
Sometimes a discussion/argument can be primarily based on circumstantial evidence and bias
As this one certainly shall be, sooner rather than later...
Nothing really new here; this has been discussed to death innumerable times.

Where's that beating-a-dead-horse icon when you really need it?
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Old December 24, 2007, 09:24 PM   #6
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Funny:
Why not use state of the art gello results, from Double Tap ammo, and draw new conclusions?
Quote:
DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"


DoubleTap .357 Sig
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 12.25" / .71"
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1250fps - 14.75" / .73"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"
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Old December 24, 2007, 09:27 PM   #7
Aqeous
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Unfortunately I completely agree with Orionengrn, that's basically what it inevitably degrades to most every time. Son of Vlad Tepes do you by any chance have any data or links supporting your statement of 0.02 or 0.06 difference in expansion can have any notable advantage over one another? If you do I would very much like to review it.
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Old December 24, 2007, 09:31 PM   #8
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Socrates makes an excellent point. I made no claims to the very best of the best. I am Aware that some .45ACP JHP expand to nearly 1.0" Thank you for brining this new chart to my attention I will most certainly check that out. However I still do see a lot of similar .6' and .7's in terms of expansion in the upper data table as do I see the same similarities between the 10mm and .45 ACP stats at the bottom. According to this if your dealing with the best of the best of the best there may be two types of "generalized" performances one can expect from their handgun ammunition? It seems like one could go 9mm-.357-or .40 S&W and get next to identical results and then go either .10 mm or .45 ACP and do the same (gaining about and extra 0.2" over the latter mentioned.) Does anyone have any contradictory charts to Socrates'?

Anyone have any data on the Recoil in foot pounds of force for any of these rounds being fired through a 4" barrel?

P.S. and though I have readjusted my conclusion somewhat the heart of it remains the same, these calibers have a great deal of ballistic similarities to one another. Though in this new chart (though I have not fully researched it as of yet) seems to indicate that there may be a greater .2" of expansion that may be achievable through using either 10mm or 45 ACP. Perhaps suggesting 2 distinct general (best of the best) performance capabilities for all JHP handgun ammunitions regardless of specific caliber?

Last edited by Aqeous; December 24, 2007 at 10:38 PM.
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Old December 24, 2007, 10:56 PM   #9
juliet charley
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Quote:
But minute differences in expansion and penetration can be indeed significant, as even a difference of a few millimeters can make the difference between a quickly incapacitating wound and not.
BUT, by the same token, just a few milliseconds getting off a second or subsequent shot can make the difference between walking away and getting carried away which throws the advantage back in the other direction. The bottom line is, given the top-performing rounds, there is not enough difference to make a difference.

I recommend taking Double Tap's (or any manufacturer's) figures with a very large grain of salt pending verification by a reputable, independent, professional tester or lab.
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Old December 24, 2007, 11:07 PM   #10
Aqeous
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Juliet Charley I very much agree.

If you can double tap a (45 ACP 230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95") OR a (10mm 165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02") CENTER MASS like a 9mm that would be pretty darn amazing. But if you can not one might easily consider the benefits of faster shots and greater magazine capacity at an expansion of 0.65" to 0.75" over absolute ballistic expansion superiority.

Does anyone out there feel the the other way around?

And I will Take your recommendation of---taking Double Tap's (or any manufacturer's) figures with a very large grain of salt pending verification by a reputable, independent, professional tester or lab--very seriously. Buy the way Socrates' ballistics chart states that a 9mm 147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66" where as my own was 9mm 147 gr Gold Dot JHP 1032 f/s Ballistics Gel Expansion -0.62" which WAS DONE by an independent tester. (On Socrates' chart his 147 gr Gold Dot JHP traveled 93fps faster and expanded 0.04" wider then on my own.) It is natural for cooperations to tweak stats ever so slightly in their favor by testing their products in the most impossibly optimal conditions--this is a fact that we SHOULD ALL be very much aware of ESPECIALLY when dealing with things that we will be betting our lives on.

Last edited by Aqeous; December 25, 2007 at 12:13 AM.
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Old December 24, 2007, 11:24 PM   #11
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Hmm, lets see:

The .357 Magnum is obviously powerful, but it can only be used reliably in revolvers. So that leaves military usefulness out. It also has a lot of muzzle blast compared to more moderate yet effective cartridges.

The .40 S&W? Stupidest cartridge ever designed. Some say the .40 has the best attributes of the 9mm and .45, but I say it doesn't do the job of either as well. I'm a glass is half empty kind of guy. Just what we need, another caliber

Next? 45 ACP and 9mm, which I wrote a lengthy article about in the other thread. Basically, 45ACP is a caliber which was fashioned after the older black powder cartridges of the late 19th century because of it's well documented effectiveness. It does the job. 9mm is only slightly smaller (no practical difference in the large scheme of things). Both about equally effective with good bullet placement with the advantage going to 9mm for logistical reasons.

Unless you're a hunter, there's no advantage for more powerful rounds. The .45 Super has been around for a LONG time, yet the 45 ACP still lives on. They are both identical in size. 45ACP has been proven to be the highest end of power that the average shooter can learn to master. Even so, many of the police agencies dropped 45 ACP for a 9mm or 40 because it is still known to have a reasonably stout kick.
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Old December 24, 2007, 11:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
Does anyone out there feel the the other way around?
My view on it differs by launching platform. In a semi-automatic pistol I favor 9mm and the ability to make quick and accurate "bursts" of fire with a decent magazine capacity to draw from. However, I really like .45 ACP in a revolver where I want to maximize the ballistic potential for each shot because capacity is limited.
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Old December 24, 2007, 11:43 PM   #13
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Factors:
Platform
Target composition
range
purpose
law limits
consistency of expansion
CCW
Home Defense
Hunting

What's really at play in your statistics? Law.
LEO and the big three have justified caliber loadings that for 'Self-defense' ammunition, meet a certain set of criteria. The ammo companies, rather then sticking their collective necks out, have adopted the standards established by LEO and the FBI, and sold them to the public. Actually, considering the amount of ammo they sell LEO, government, etc. it may just be resetting and resetting is a waste of time. Why not put it in a fancy box, call it "Premium Self-defense" ammunition, and charge the public four times what LEO pay for it? If sued, they can just point back to government agency requirements and say,"We did what YOU told use to make."

End liability issues. Same argument Ayoob has about using what your local police use for firearms and caliber.

So yes, you can load all the calibers to pretty much the same preformance. In fact, you can take 44 special, 45 Colt, 44 magnum, 475 Linebaugh, .500 JRH, 500 Linebaugh, and load them to similar ballistic lows.

The logical extension of the low recoil, fast hits argument
is we should all be shooting 1500 fps 100 grain, 38 Super, or 22lr, in race guns. Or, better, Mac 10's in 380, or 11's.

If you want COM hits, with heavier loads, at point blank range, take your first shot at the pelvis, second, on the rise, at COM chest or head.

As for the validity of Double Taps tests: this isn't rocket science. MANY others load those same bullets to lower velocities, and, you can use the different results to see how the bullets react at different velocities. A Speer Gold Dot is a Speer Gold Dot, regardless of who loads it, who's brass, and who's powder charge. If you look at the results from the 165 grain bullets in 40 and 10mm, you'll notice the bullet was probably designed for the 10, since it opens to over an inch, and yet penetrates just .25" more then the same bullet, in 40. In 40, it opens up to .70", so which would you consider more important? As for recoil, I don't think any of these rounds really recoil, unless you put them in ultra light platforms.

So, I guess it all comes down to what you want in a SD defense strategy. I'd like a 458 Lott, or 458 winmag, with
200 grain bullets, at extremely high velocity for my situation, since I know the bullets are going to end in a back stop, the shot will be close, and nothing good will get hit by a through and through penetration. Don't have one, so I settle for my 375 H&H. However, I cannot exactly carry it to the door to investigate late night knocks.

I can carry a 475 Linebaugh, with 400 grain XTP's, at 1350 fps, which, we have observed, will kill game at least, much like that 375 H&H. Is this ideal? NO, but, I can't get a class 3, or haven't tried, and, my idea of a home defense would be a Mac 10, suppressed, in 45ACP. 7000 grains in less then 2 seconds might come close to a rifle's affect at close range.

I'm not married to either philosophy, but, given my experience, and the likelyhood of ever having to use the weapon, I'd rather using my hunting stuff, or 45 Super.

Also, in Kali, I'm limited to 10 rounds. Triple taps mean only 3 targets, with a 9mm. If I can only have 10 rounds, I want those rounds to be as powerful as possible. Also, at the ranges I would be shooting them, I think a giant, blinding fireball of H 4227, and the thunder of a heavy caliber weapon, deafening the target, would be as nearly as effective as the actual bullet.

I do spend more time then I would like in areas where gangs are a big problem. In those situations I want penetration, due to cars, and multiple assaliants in the cars, read driveby shootings. Still, when all is said and done, I want the most powerful weapon I can use, and, at the range I'd have to be to be justified in using the weapon, the merits of second and third shot follow up is minimzied.
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Old December 25, 2007, 12:50 AM   #14
Aqeous
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Socrates great post. Very informative.

So if I'm not mistaken you are basically conceding to the original statement of my first post: that basically just about any caliber can be loaded to perform very similarly to just about any other caliber.
However on the flip side if I understand correctly you also believe that there is just no replacing the feeling and mental certainty having as much raw power as possible (and legally possible) at your finger tips should the moment arise.

Is that right? If it is I am certain that many would share that sentiment and state of mind. It's a pretty easy logic to get on board with.
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Old December 25, 2007, 01:05 AM   #15
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here we go again. another group trying to tell you a 9mm is as good as a .45.
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Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded
XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag
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Old December 25, 2007, 01:22 AM   #16
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It's like this....

When it comes to real life shootings, there are some things that are totally unpredictable:
You will not be able to predict exactly where your opponent will be hit.
You will not be able to predict exactly how deep the bullet will penetrate.
You will not be able to predict exactly how much the bullet will expand.
You will not be able to predict exactly how many rounds you will be able to fire at your opponent.

So, with that in mind, it makes sense to choose the most powerful round that you can accurately shoot.

When all other factors are equal, the 9mm is weaker (less ft. lbs. of energy) than the .357Sig, and the .40S&W, and the .45ACP.
And both the .357Sig and the .40S&W are just as powerful as the .45ACP yet offer more magazine capacity.

So the obvious choice is the .357Sig or the .40S&W.
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Old December 25, 2007, 02:07 AM   #17
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Aqeous:

Thank you. However, I'm trying to get at that the service calibers are loaded to pretty much the same level, regardless of potential, by the major ammomakers, for political and recoil reasons. I'd like a better breakdown, but, I'm pretty sure the majority of ammunition made is sold to government agencies, on government contracts, at least by the big 3. Whenever you have near monopolies, or limited companies controlling the market, innovation is hard to come by, and rarely acted on, and even less rewarded.

For a long time, I've been looking at this because of my intrest in heavy handguns, and dangerous game rifles. Pretty much nothing moved, from the 60's to the invention of the computer CNC programable bullet lathe becoming avaliable for around 20K. GS Customs, Barnes, and many other makers, not stifled by our government regulations, have come up with lathe turned solids that far out class the current bullet offerings from the major US makers. Why? Why innovate when you own the market, and, can't loose it? Production, research and tooling costs cut into profit, so, keep selling what works, and, the longer you do, the more the setup costs are reduced.

From a big bore handgun, and rifle shooting person, I'd rather buy cast bullets then pay the absurd prices some of the makers charge, and, on other areas, I'm just stumped.

Try finding .512 Jacketed Hollow points...

What happens to innovations that work? Often the large companies pay you lots of money, by your patent, and bury your product. B.R.I. made a 500 grain 45 caliber sabot shotgun round I helped test fire. Last I heard it's LEO only, and Winchester had the patent.

As for any caliber being loaded to the power of any other: NO. They ARE loaded to the same levels, but, that is not their potential. Each has a niche, or optimal range of performance, depending on what the target is, due to case capacity, how much of it the bullet takes, and, how much velocity you get for said bullet. This has variables: bullet weight, powder charge and case capacity, bore size, barrel length, powder speed, and bullet type. You can't get a 9mm to fire a 230 grain bullet. You can't get a 9mm to develop a 1" or more hole, as you can with certain bullets,
and velocity with 10MM or 45ACP or Super. The 9mm is never going to shoot 200 grain bullets like the 357, either.

I view the issues in a couple ways. First: How big is your bad guy? I'm good size, and, everytime I've been attacked the guys have been about 6'2", and most over 260 pounds, with one exception that was a prison guard. You wouldn't shoot big deer with a 9mm for a first choice, unless you are
using selective fire capabilities. Also how many of the bad guys are there? I really wouldn't want to take on a pride of lions, or herd of elephant or cape buffalo, even bison, with a single shot and no backup. Bear maybe, if I had a single shot in some truly awful caliber, like 500 Nitro Express, or 500 A2.
How are you going to damage your target? I've got a guy I get ammo from that has a customer that swears by 45 caliber 260 grain hp's, at 1450 fps. He swears, on black bear, that the difference between impact and attitude at 1200 and 1450 fps is really noticeable. And, here is our problem: most bad guys do not volunteer to get shot with heavier then service caliber weapons, and, most LE* shootings are done with service caliber weapons. Almost no data is avaliable for outside the box shootings of humans. In fact, most of it's stuff like 22-380-9mm, since those are the caliber guns the bad guys can conceal and obtain easily.

So, we can't really tell if a 10mm or 45 Super is noticeably better on humans then a 9mm, or 380. Heck, I can't find any data on the 44 magnum, and how long has that been around? The 'data' that has been around says it works about like anything else. Why? Self-defense loads nueter it to 200 grain bullets at 1100 fps, and all of a second we have a 44 magnum that has 40 S&@ ballistics...:barf:

Plus, there is more then one way to effectively hunt. Some swear by high velocity little bullets, like the 223. I have a friend that has designed a .500 Caliber cartridge, the 500JRH, that kills with about the same effect as a 375 H&H on big game. It uses very large bullets, 440 grains, at sedate speeds, like 950 fps, yet the impact and result has been observed to be similar to a 375 H&H, with similar placement. More game has gone down to AK 47's in Africa then nearly anything. Why? .308 caliber bullets, in bursts, even at slow velocity, are devastating. Likewise burst fire with even little bullets, like 22lr, or 380 would probably due the trick due to cumulative damage, and, not great, but adequate penetration. My point is there is no single right answer to the question. 9mm is a mainstay, and, it's real forte is submachine gun ammo. A long time ago, I had a 9mm Mac 11. For close range defense, it was pretty hard to pass up. I felt real good about the 380 mac 10 we had as well. Sure, 45 was better, but, at what point is enough enough?

I tried to address that in another thread, and it got locked.

My observations are similar to old day loads, and, I guess I'll sum it up by quoting one of my mentors, Lee Jurras:

Quote:
The 14" of geletin is fine for lab analylsis and a theoretical situation, someone has to explain to the widow why that theory didn't hold water after the fact: now maybe thats a little rash, but it has happened...You say you feel ALL handguns are not consistent stoppers on man sized targets"...I SAY if the caliber starts with a 4, and weighs at least 250 grs, moving at least 950 fps. IT WILL be consistent if properly placed...Thats the big secret. I also believe if it starts with a 3 and weighs 110 grs, traveling at least 1350 fps, it can be a consistent stopper also....provided its properly placed...Now before I hear the onslaught of disbelief....remember the little tail about the solids and the SP's I mentioned....Use the right equipment...Guys usually know the general senario they will be facing...The NYC detective 's will probably differ from The Montana Hiway Patrolman, just as the guy going after Grizz with his favorite 44 or 45, or 475 and 500 will differ from the Eastern Whitetail hunter...Now this might not answer all your questions Greg BUT...I don't believe there is a pat answer...I personally have tried to choose the equipment for the job...And or offered the Individaul a choice. I took my choice, design, and finished product at tested it in a good portion of the world under a variety of circumstances....My choice today for Grizz or Moose in Alaska, My 375 Howdah or my 475 Linebaugh...All lesser game my Ruger 44 Mag SuperBlackhawk.Jurras 180 gr. JSP.... Personal defense My 70 Series 1911.or 4" 25-5....All-around one gun...Probably 44 Superblackhawk....But who wants just one gun.....If I could only own one, I'd probably have to say my Linebaugh 475, could load in down for squirrel or up for bear....All around bullet design Keith style SWC....Hope I haven't confused the issue...For those of you that might mistake my trivia for just an old man...thats what worked and continues to work for me....Onward and upward...the Curmudgeon
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Old December 25, 2007, 02:10 AM   #18
vox rationis
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Quote:
BUT, by the same token, just a few milliseconds getting off a second or subsequent shot can make the difference between walking away and getting carried away which throws the advantage back in the other direction. The bottom line is, given the top-performing rounds, there is not enough difference to make a difference.
I'd say that the second shot's importance is essentially only as good as its placement/penetration, irrespective if it comes a few milliseconds faster. If the first shot (or second for that matter) is say, 1.5 mm away from an important structure (major artery, heart, spinal cord, etc), then that is 1.5 mm not close enough isn't it. If the second shot comes a few milliseconds faster and still falls short of the target, albeit by a infinitesimal margin, it too is close, but unfortunately not close enough for the quickest potential incapacitation.

As far as that double tap data, is that just bare gelatin test results? Because results can vary greatly between clothed and bare gelatin.

Here's an interesting web site on the topic (by on old forum member):
http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/...hp?sort=grade1

Quote:
If you can double tap a (45 ACP 230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95") OR a (10mm 165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02") CENTER MASS like a 9mm that would be pretty darn amazing.
I don't know about those particular loads, but I'd argue that controlled pairs/hammers/whatever with a .40 or .45, with practice, can be done fast enough, and with good practical precision, to the point where any discussion about being faster with a 9mm becomes somewhat moot. However, I do agree that if you shoot the 9mm significantly faster, than the total wound volume per second can be significantly higher for the 9mm. But, I would also argue that a higher total wound volume per second with a 9mm would be trumped by a bullet that hits a target of higher significance incapacitation wise (major artery, heart, spinal cord, etc), and again that slight edge does go to the bigger calibers.

Having said all of that however, would I feel totally insecure if I was armed with a 9mm? No , but I humbly think that ammo selection is a lot more critical when choosing the 9mm.

I still agree with those that say that one should carry the biggest caliber that they can shoot well, and that gives them an acceptable capacity.

p.s. And I guess another issue for law enforcement when choosing a round is also penetration of auto glass/etc, and I do believe that the .40 and .45 are more effective in this area do to the heavier bullet weights
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Old December 25, 2007, 02:25 AM   #19
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Thanks for the FBI link! Lost it when my hard drive crashed.

From the above article:
Quote:
Conclusions

Staring at the different views of the data - primarily sorted by bare and clothed wound volume - made me notice a few things, some obvious, some not:

1. terminal performance can be a lot different for a round in bare vs. clothed gelatin,
2. small, fast rounds that depend on lots of expansion to get wound volume (or width) can often be foiled by clothing (e.g.: .40 CCI/Speer GD 155gr: bare, it expanded by 110%, to 0.84, but in clothed gelatin, it only expanded by 54%),
3. bullets that start out smaller must expand to a larger percentage of their original size than a larger bullet to attain the same wound width,
4. less massy bullets have less "material" to work with in terms of expansion - they are stretched "more thin",

5. heavier, slower rounds in .40 (or 10mm) and .45 did extremely well in bare gelatin wound volume, but they ruled clothed gelatin wound volume. Their slow velocity did not prevent expansion. e.g.: the 230gr Rem Golden Saber .45 ACP at 871 fps expanded 58% in bare, and 62% in clothed gelatin!
6. the best 9mm rounds tested, according to wound volume in both cases, are the: CCI/Speer Gold Dot 124 +P, and the 147gr Black Talon. This made me re-evaluate my "carry" choice in 9mm, since it was a Proload/GD 115+P. I switched to 124+P.
7. the best .45ACP loads and the best .40 loads were pretty close. "heavy" 9mm's were noticably behind. "light" 9mm's were last,
8. while some 9mm 115's did well relative to the 124gr's and 147gr's in bare gelatin, they scored the worst in clothed gelatin,
9. 357SIG performs similarly to CCI/Speer GD 124 +P. The extra 100 fps didn't help much, either in penetration or wound volume.
10. pick a caliber you like, and then research the best bullet for your platform, since the particular load makes a much bigger difference than caliber in some cases (e.g.: a 9mm beating a .45),
11. stated another way, there are some general trends in terms of wound volume by caliber, but there is significant overlap based on particular load performance,
12. if a round fails to expand "normally" from clothing, there is a good chance it will over-penetrate.. sort by "(clothed gelatin) penetration depth" and notice how many are over 20" penetration,

The big caveat in these conclusions is that they are just one data point per load, and most of the data is pretty old. I wonder if some new loads would perform differently - e.g. would a 357SIG at 1450 FPS perform much better than this one at 1372fps?
As for Double Taps testing setup:
Quote:
All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.

Last edited by Socrates; December 25, 2007 at 03:53 AM.
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Old December 25, 2007, 02:52 AM   #20
Sgt127
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To quote a very good friend of mine. Poke a hole, poke the biggest hole you can, poke it all the way through. In a perfect world, the bullet will exit the skin of the bad guys back and fall down, right behind him, spent of any energy.

I find it rather amazing that every bullet, by every major manufacturer, in every caliber, just happens to penetrate damned near the exact same distance. All well and good, unless the one shot you get happens to be a side shot and you need it to get through his huge, prison buffed bicep, through his ribs and into something important. The best chance of a one shot stop in the torso is to sever the spine. I'm not convinced that a bullet, that penetrates 13.5 inches in jello, will always do that through a really big guys chest full of muscle and bones.

I am so amazed by the almost identical penetration of all the top self defense loads on the market, that I can't help but think they are very specifically designed (and marketed) to help assure jumpy Police administrators that the bullets will never overpenetrate.

My off duty gun is a 3" S&W 65. Loaded with 158 GR Lead semiwadcutters. The load that was originally designed for the .357 and had a pretty good track record.
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Old December 25, 2007, 03:43 AM   #21
Sport45
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Quote:
Where's that beating-a-dead-horse icon when you really need it?
This one?

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Old December 25, 2007, 09:37 AM   #22
JaserST4
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Quote:
By the way JaserST4, Can't help but notice how you picked out the one single statement that might have seemed at odds with your own personal perspective and yet contributed nothing to the discussion as a whole; Suppled no life experience, no data circumstantial or otherwise, or even a comment on the subject at hand, that my friend is the very nature of an an unintelligent discussion. So what was the point of even posting a reply?
I contributed a great deal in a few short words. I was pointing out that your assumption that an often discussed issue hadn't been done intelligently before was puzzling. Your getting defensive and pissy about it doesn't make you look smarter, neither does your assumption that I would contribute even more to your education.
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Old December 25, 2007, 10:43 AM   #23
Aqeous
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Goodmorining Every One Aqeous is on Eastern Standar Time . . .

To kgpcr who said last night that after I fell asleep; "here we go again. another group trying to tell you a 9mm is as good as a .45." That is in my opinion very short sighted and totally NOT what this discussion is all about. I can only assume you have not read all of the Aqeous posts or perhaps did not gather my intent. As of right now its seems like there are substantial ballistics similarities between 9mm, .347, .an 40 S&W (JHP) and then at the higher spectrum of expansion (something like 0.2") there are equal similarities between the 10mm and .45ACP (JHP) I don't think any one here has said flat out the 9mm is better that the .45 ACP.
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Old December 25, 2007, 10:43 AM   #24
Wuchak
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I think it just shows how good modern SD ammo has become. I would feel comfortable with any of the loads listed in my carry gun. That frees me to make my decision on what to carry based on what I can shoot the best and what I can carry and conceal comfortably each day. Something like a P-11 can ride backup to a 1911 in the winter and become the primary in the dog days of summer. We've come a long way in ammo performance in the past 20 years.
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Old December 25, 2007, 11:09 AM   #25
Aqeous
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Response to JaserST4

Before I responded and got "defensive and Pissy" with you as you so eloquently put I took the time to read many of your posts in other threads. You seem to have a habit of blatantly disagreeing and stating your opinion while offering no facts, stats, research, or stories of life experience of any kind to back up or support your opinion. Socrates for instance is contributing a great deal to this thread even though his opinion differed from mine from the get go; and in fact he has "Educated me" in alternative perspectives of thinking. That's what an intelligent conversation, debate, and/or argument is all about. And as for "looking intelligent" this is your second somewhat derogatory post, I challenge you to offer or contribute any data, stats, websites, (anything) that might support or contradict my 1st and/or 4th post on this thread. My goal is not to strive for intelligence I think most good, common, grounded men have achieved that, I will say however that I strive for a fair and opened mind . . .


"Just because you state a thing as if it were not so, does not instantly make it not so . . . " --Good Old Grandpa.


By the way Sport45 cool icon! Where did you find that!
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