The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 14, 2007, 10:31 PM   #1
tplumeri
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2007
Posts: 1,919
engage the shooter?

OK, we've done alot of the "shoot, no shoot" scenarios here but was talking to a fellow cc today and the recent mall shootings came up. he said "too bad one of us wasnt there".
Now keep in mind this was not bravado on his part. we are both military trained and qualify yearly. (expert with baretta, at least marksman with m-16).
so, now that its all said and done, what do you think you would do if you were there?
honestly, part of me says i would engage the shooter and to heck with personal safety. other part of me thinks self preservation would be the way to go.
what would you do.
tom
tplumeri is offline  
Old December 14, 2007, 10:58 PM   #2
Boris Bush
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2007
Posts: 921
Quote:
other part of me thinks self preservation would be the way to go.
I think everyone would feel that way. BUT that is why these people get such high body counts. A nation of cowards not willing to fight back would rather watch the slaughtering and preserve themself.

One kid at the VA tech shooting told through his mother how he played dead at the killers feet as he reloaded!!! ***! reloading means no loaded weapon, what better time to fight! This man(?) could have saved many lives yet chose the coward route and let the slaughter continue. I wonder how his mother would feel if roles were reversed, someone that was killed after his cowardly act played dead while passing up a chance to save lives watched from the 'possum position as he was killed.

I would rather die fighting than live with myself knowing I was a coward and people died because of my cowardice.........

Now to answer the question. As a ccw holder, I would within all reason and safety of innocents, engage the shooter..
Boris Bush is offline  
Old December 14, 2007, 11:16 PM   #3
Hardtarget
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2001
Location: Nashville, Tn.
Posts: 683
Let me say first...I HOPE to never be in this situation.

If ever put in that "fight for your life"...I HOPE to be the man I should be.

Thats why my screen name. Its what I aspire to be. I don't plan to go easy.

Realisticly, we all know the ugly legal nightmare following the survival of a shootout is always in the back of the mind. Not one person I know would look foreward to the years of court fights.

Mark.
__________________
...even a blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while.
Hardtarget is offline  
Old December 14, 2007, 11:18 PM   #4
Perldog007
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2007
Location: Estados Unitas / United States
Posts: 968
Well the thing you don't do is issue a challenge to an actor who is already shooting up the mall.

I couldn't say unless I was there. Is it safer to shoot or to evade? Could innocent lives be saved or would you be endangering innocents by taking a shot.

Is the actor shooting a trash can or people?

Is the shot within a range you could hit with the adrenaline dump coming your way?

As soon as the shooting starts somebody, probably several somebodies have called 911. Will LEO arriving at the scene recognize you as a good samaritan? Would you recognize plainclothes LEO or uc as such?

What the heck are you doing ccw in a mall anyway? Most malls don't have gun stores, many have anti-ccw policies and make their security walk around unarmed with Sam Browne belts.

Yet they still expect these poor guards to embark on the continuum of use of force, knowing that after uniformed presence, verbal commands, physical force and possibly chemical irritants and impact weapons they are out of tricks. Most of them don't have O.C. or batons.

It's like sending you out on the highway in a truck with only first and second gear, sheer stupidity. And a good chance of being over run.

With policies like that malls are begging some person functioning outside societal norms to walk in and start shooting the unarmed employees and patrons.

Maybe that ain't my fight. Maybe that's why I will shop online when I can. Not saying I don't ever go to malls, but it occurs infrequently and when I do I consider the ramifications of doing so.

Me I would rather not be there. If present at such an unfortunate event my course of action would be determined by the exact circumstances and probably can't be decided in a "what if" session here.

Not to dismiss your question, it is a valid one and worthy of discussion. My .02 USD - don't give anti-gun malls your business if you can help it. If you have to be there and it "jumps off" rely on your training to make the right decision.
Perldog007 is offline  
Old December 14, 2007, 11:26 PM   #5
EastSideRich
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 19, 2007
Location: St Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 369
Kind of been covered before, but I like to think (assuming I could actually think when some lunatic is shooting people around me) if I thought I had any chance of getting off a couple of shots without myself getting shot - i.e. I'm not directly in the line of fire, and I was within pistol range (for me probably 25 yards or so for a good shot) - I would take the shot. If I was not in a position to engage immediately I would like to think I would seek cover, then return fire. If nothing else it would cause the shooter to deal with me, at least momentarily, which would mean he's not shooting other people.
It's hard to really say though, because under the circumstances I think there would be such shock and panic, nobody can really say how they would react. If after the fact I realized I was within range (of a shot from a pistol) and could have possibly engaged the shooter, it would tear me up inside to think I could have stopped that guy, but I panicked and ran away.
I don't know how anyone could say they would absolutely not shoot the guy, even if they thought they could (again assuming they were able to keep a level head during the incident). I would think that would be very hard to live with afterwards.
I apologize if this is poorly written, that's what five or six Labatt Blues will do to ya
EastSideRich is offline  
Old December 14, 2007, 11:34 PM   #6
Perldog007
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2007
Location: Estados Unitas / United States
Posts: 968
In Vino veritas, and well put Daryl.

Yup, them dang variables combine in endless probabilities in such a manner as to completely befuddle us keyboard commandos.

i have had the honor to know a couple of real commandos and am pretty sure what they would do. I ain't one of them, if they guy is shooting at me or mine, pretty simple.

When you intervene on behalf of strangers you have to consider is this worth my life, my health, my wealth, my freedom? If yes to all of the above, like Val Kilmer said as Doc Holliday in Tombstone: "Proceed".

Last edited by Perldog007; December 15, 2007 at 01:05 PM. Reason: corrected quote
Perldog007 is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 08:13 AM   #7
Spade Cooley
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2007
Posts: 296
Take cover first, then start shooting. Anyone who would pull a stunt like that would be a coward and would not stay in the fight. Do not say anything like, "Drop it", just get cover and shoot. That would be the end of his fun.

If I had a gun and didn't take some kind of action in that situation, it would be hard to live with myself.
Spade Cooley is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 09:15 AM   #8
38SnubFan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2004
Location: Harrisburg, PA USA
Posts: 118
I think previous posters put it best to first consider your personal safety and the safety of others.

That being said, if I could reasonably assure my safety, as well as the safety of innocents, I would engage the actor and take the shot, assuming again I has reasonable certainty that I could stop the threat.

Legal ramifications being damned here, I would rather die on my feet than to live on my knees.

And as far as possible legal ramifications go; yes, there would probably be court hearings, my weapon taken into evidence, and lots of testimony from expert witnesses and eye-witnesses for both Defense and Prosecution to put up with. That's just the legal process doing what they're trained to do, and the legal process being what it is and needs to be.

Now, I know there's varying viewpoints that will say I'm right and many more to say I'm wrong for my opinion. Here in PA, the Crimes Code states that "a person may use lethal force in the defense of a 3rd party if that 3rd party would themselves be authorized in using lethal force in defense of themselves - so that should pretty much sum up my legal stance at the time I need to make the decision whether to engage the shooter or not.

Just my 2 cents worth, and we all know what opinions are like LOL, but I have one.

God knows it's been a long time since I posted on here, but it's a slow morning and I figured I'd chime in. A merry and safe holiday to all.

-Matt
__________________
Sure, you can have my gun...BULLETS FIRST!

"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men and women stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -A token of appreciation for the good cops.

"Good cheer and steady aim are always fashionable."

"Will...if need be!"

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΑΛΒΕ!
38SnubFan is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 09:28 AM   #9
Creature
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
If I had a clean shot at the shooter, of course I would take it.
Creature is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 10:38 AM   #10
Spade Cooley
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2007
Posts: 296
If you take time to weigh the legal ramifications, you could end up dead. In this type of situation just do the right thing and hope for the best. I'll take my chances with a jury trial if they want to go after me.

But when the smoke clears you might want to hold off on making your statement. This is a time I might even want an attorney at my side. How you say it went down is crutial.
Spade Cooley is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 11:12 AM   #11
stephen426
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 2,869
Perldog007,

I'm not sure where you are from but most malls in Miami don't have any "no guns allowed" signs posted. I think there might be one mall that does and it is probably a company wide policy. Besides, the idea behind concealed carry is that no one knows you are carrying. If you were to engage a psychopath with a gun, there is no way the mall would press charges. You would be a hero for preventing more bloodshed. While the idea is not to be regarded as a hero, think of all the lives that would be lost if everyone just ran for cover. They are safe until the gunman stumbles upon their position. Just like the VA Tech shootings, the gunman just walked around and pumped bullets into people cowering under tables and chairs. I hate to use the analogy, but its like fish in a barrel. Had a group of students resisted, they may have been able to prevent the loss of so many lives. Failure to act did not gaurantee their safety, rather, it sealed their fate.
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 11:45 AM   #12
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 16,609
Two concerns.

First, are you sure the person who you think is the perpetrator the actual perpetrator or is (s)he an off duty cop who is responding to the gunfire? Could (s)he also be a CCW holder like yourself?

Second, how do you ensure that you're not shot by the uniformed or off duty cops?

Better be sure of your target and then expected to be drawn upon by the police.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is online now  
Old December 15, 2007, 12:22 PM   #13
tlm225
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2004
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 659
This type of thread has always caused me concern. I've kept my mouth shut until now.

Target ID is a concern but if he's shooting women and children its a done deal.

Being engaged by off-duty officers, responding officers or a CCW holder is a possibility to be considered.

What does concern me is the position many take of "I'll save my hide, the heck with everyone else". Maybe your conscience will allow you to leave helpless innocents to be slaughtered while you run, mine won't. The mere concept that an armed man would turn his back on a situation like this sickens me.

Go ahead, flame away, you're safe behind your keyboard.
__________________
All that is neccessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke
tlm225 is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 12:49 PM   #14
Perldog007
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2007
Location: Estados Unitas / United States
Posts: 968
Miami sounds like a great place. Here in the Northeast I-95 corridor there is nearly complete anti-gun fever. States like VA and DE that have cc will almost always have signs at mall entrances proscribing concealed weapons and mall security in this part of the USA is universally unarmed.

I respect those who say damn the torpedos, lawyers, and legal ramifications. If there is a bad actor and weapon in the hands of a good guy then good should prevail. That is the way it should be.

First hand experience tells me that ain't the way it always goes down. Having a multiple felon accuse you of wrong doing when you have credible witnesses on your side, having to go through a trial and the expense, having your relationship destroyed because your spouse works for the city and does not believe the cops would lie, losing your job over the stigma, can make winning in court akin to a hollow victory.

The foregoing was over a misdemeanor brandishing charge for acting in my own defense. My accuser was a multiple felon and the good cops at the scene knew I was not the trouble maker. One bad detective suffering a viagra overdose was all it took to get the ball rolling.

The unwritten policy of that department was that concealed permit holders would be disarmed and charged whenever possible. The court determined that my actions were that of a reasonable and prudent person. I was acquitted.

I was also left knowing that right ain't always right. Not all cops and prosecutors and courts are anti-gun types who will consider you deviant just for having a weapon. But some are.

You only need to encounter corrupt officials once to ruin your life.

If you really want to be safe, you avoid the slightest hint of trouble. You run with confidence and if cornered you fight with determination and faith. You fight as hard as you can until you are safe.

You train for the worst and hope for the best. If there is a trend of @$$#0L35 shooting up malls, check this out - stay out of the mall.

The malls here are gun free zones filled with sheep. Unless the authorities ask me to hunt wolves I am not going there without a darned good reason. Being perceived as hunting without a license can ruin you, whether you were or not.

If the mall management goes public and says CCW holders are welcome here because they make the mall safer and we buy them free coffee that may be different.

When I see that blue sign by the door lumping CCW holders together with vandals, skateboarders and other trouble makers I know they don't want my business.

But Perldog, my state is a "stand your ground state". So your local sheriff is pro armed citizen and the DA is an NRA life member. Ever heard of the feds? Know all the federal regulations and laws by heart do you?

Some crazed person shooting up the mall? It is a trend? Common sense tells me to avoid malls. If everybody did they would have to change their ways, provide some real security and realize that CCW holders and skateboarders are two different things.

So the question is engage the shooter. My question is what where you doing there? A mall with no anti-gun policies and armed security might find me in it spending money. So attacked I would do what I was trained to do.

The malls near me don't qualify. To me the question is what can we do to find alternatives to shopping, work, and school places that are safe zones for terrorists?
Perldog007 is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 01:20 PM   #15
Erik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: America
Posts: 3,479
As a general rule I would attempt to engage the shooter.
__________________
Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective
Erik is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 02:53 PM   #16
armedandsafe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2005
Location: Moses Lake WA
Posts: 1,001
As a good instructor once told me, years ago, "You can't stop him if you are dead. Always have a cover position in mind."

I'd like to think I'd take cover and attempt to stop the shooter. Circumstances of the instant would determine just how that would be accomplished. Which brings to mind the incident about 50 years ago, where an alert (and brave) citizen threw a rack of overcoats over a knife wielding madman in the store. Once he was down, close to a dozen people piled on and he was a little worse for wear when he was hauled off to the local copshop. The officer on duty that day was a little startled when we came bursting through the door with this poor, bedraggled fellow in tow.

Whatever works.

Pops
__________________
Armed and Safe: Not just a theory

If it time to bury them, it is time to dig them up.
Remember, "Behind every blade of grass."
armedandsafe is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 03:40 PM   #17
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,557
Like tlm225 said, . . . ID'ing the shooter is paramount. Anyone shooting with a handgun in a mall where I am, . . . gets a pass until I am certain he is a bad guy, . . . guy with an AK, face paint, baggy butt camo bdu's, . . . he is almost certainly a bg, . . . but again, . . . shooting another CHL or an innocent, . . . it would only turn out ugly.

In all honesty, . . . I would probably have to see him shoot someone, . . . then I could go after him with all I have with me.

A concealed carry license is a license only for defense, . . . it is not a hunting permit of any kind, . . . so what you shoot, . . . has to be hunting you or someone you can certify as an intended target that you defended.

Yes, . . . I would certainly hate to go to bed some night, . . . knowing if I had taken an earlier shot I may have saved a life, . . . but it would hurt much, much worse, . . . if I said goodnight to the cell captain, . . . laid down on my stainless steel bunk, . . . pondering if there is any way of getting freed from having shot an innocent CHL carrier who, like me, was only trying to be a good guy.

And, . . . while it goes against the grain of most mall ninjas and John Wayne wannabe's, . . . I only have responsibility for myself, my family, and those who at any given, certain, limited window of time happen to be within my range of effective defendability.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 04:11 PM   #18
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,343
Quote:
Legal ramifications being damned here, I would rather die on my feet than to live on my knees.
We are talking about a mall active shooter single incident scenario, not the overthrow of our government and subsequent rule over us for years.

Or maybe you think going to safety is the same as living on your knees?

Quote:
What does concern me is the position many take of "I'll save my hide, the heck with everyone else". Maybe your conscience will allow you to leave helpless innocents to be slaughtered while you run, mine won't. The mere concept that an armed man would turn his back on a situation like this sickens me.
Be sickened. It just strikes me as stupid to put the lives of strangers before that of my own and my family. Most of those adult strangers could have gotten their CCWs. Everyone over 10 can be proficient in self defense if they get instruction. Folks could learn about situational awareness. By and large, they do not, however.

If I am killed defending said "innocents," will they then get a clue? Nope. Most will not. Most will consider themselves lucky to be alive and continue on with their lives, maybe being scared of malls, but that would be about it. Nothing will change. Of course, probably some 30-40% of those "innocents" being defended don't share my political views on guns. Probably 50% aren't of my political party. 99% aren't of my church. 99% won't even be from my neighborhood. I won't know 99% of them. Probably 80% will attempt to sue me if my self defense efforts somehow result in their subsequent injury, directly or indirectly. 10% will be ****** that I "pointed my gun at them" even if I didn't, but they happened to be in the same direction from me as the bad guy(s). 99-100% aren't going to help cover my legal expenses. Those same peoiple aren't going to help make up for my lost wages and help care for my family whist I deal with the legal crap of such an event.

Tell me again why I am supposed to lay down my life for those that haven't bothered to learn to defend themselves? While it sounds cool, it really seems to have a lot of very risky and expensive drawbacks.
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 04:21 PM   #19
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
Be sickened. It just strikes me as stupid to put the lives of strangers before that of my own and my family.
And we have a winner, IMO! The problem with these things is that way too many think that either nothing will go wrong or they will go out in a blaze of glory, honored and mourned by all. It doesn't work that way. There is just a good a chance that you will fail as that you will succeed at engaging the BG. Even if you succeed there is still a lot of potential for problems. I tell my students plan on spending at least $20,000 even in a fairly good shoot. So, is saving some stranger worth $20,00 to you?
Worse than the money is the fact thta it is not just you that can be impacted, but it is also your family. Do you really want your family to lose everything including the house, having to live in poverty for years? You wife might divorce you, and your kids will get tired of going to visit you in prison.

Now, will all that happen? No, probably not. But will everything work out great? Again, probably not. The question is where you will end up in the spectrum. Do you really want to find out?
David Armstrong is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 04:28 PM   #20
tplumeri
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2007
Posts: 1,919
Tell me again why I am supposed to lay down my life for those that haven't bothered to learn to defend themselves?

Because the meek shall inherit the earth?

seriously, Spy makes some good points. In this day and age, if I pop this guy and save "countless" lives, I can be sure of being arrested, having my gun impounded, spend five to ten grand on a lawyer and be sued by the "victim" s family. and what if the SOB gets off a lucky shot and takes me down. who takes care of my wife and kids?
but even with all of the negatives, i dont know what i would do.
i have shot a man, in self defense. took 3 yrs and 10k to clear my name.
tplumeri is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 04:37 PM   #21
TexasSeaRay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 810
Quote:
Tell me again why I am supposed to lay down my life for those that haven't bothered to learn to defend themselves? While it sounds cool, it really seems to have a lot of very risky and expensive drawbacks.
Our soldiers, sailors and airmen do it every day--and for a pittance in pay. The Coast Guard regularly risks all to save ignorant boaters who pay no attention to weather reports. Firemen risk all to save people who refuse to install smoke detectors.

And so on and so on.

To a certain extent, I believe in the karma of "what goes around, comes around."

Why should a banker risk money to lend you some when you haven't learned to budget, save and sacrifice in order to not need a loan?

Why should a doctor perform a lung transplant or liver transplant for chronic smokers or drinkers who haven't learned or pay no attention?

My faith teaches me that I am "my brother's keeper." Our nation was founded on the principle that while we were all created equal, we do not all have equal abilities.

Am I saying that we should all be "cops" and constant guardians of anyone and everyone all the time? No. But if you are in a situation to render aid and possibly/probably save someone's life and you fail to do it because you are more concerned with your own, then I submit that you only perpetuate the "me first" mentality that continues to destroy the will and fabric of this country.

Jeff
__________________
If every single gun owner belonged to the NRA as well as their respective state rifle/gun association, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today.

So to those of you who are members of neither, thanks for nothing.
TexasSeaRay is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 04:56 PM   #22
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
Our soldiers, sailors and airmen do it every day--and for a pittance in pay. The Coast Guard regularly risks all to save ignorant boaters who pay no attention to weather reports. Firemen risk all to save people who refuse to install smoke detectors.
And all of those people are trained in the job, getting paid for doing it, adn have the government behind them supporting their actions, so I'd suggest there is little if any similarity.
Quote:
Why should a banker risk money to lend you some when you haven't learned to budget, save and sacrifice in order to not need a loan?
Because the banker plans on and expects to make a profit from his actions, and if he thinks the risk is not good you don't get the loan.
Quote:
Why should a doctor perform a lung transplant or liver transplant for chronic smokers or drinkers who haven't learned or pay no attention?
Because he gets paid quite well for doing that, and again will have the hospital (and usually an insurance company) to support him if there are problems.
Quote:
I submit that you only perpetuate the "me first" mentality that continues to destroy the will and fabric of this country.
I would suggest the "me first" mentality was what made the country great, not what is destroying it. "Me first" sent the pioneers out in the West. "Me first" revolted against the British government. And so on. It was this silly "nobody is responsible for taking care of themselves" stuff that has caused so much of the trouble, IMO.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 05:06 PM   #23
KC135
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 222
Selfesh???

TexasSeaRay, Perhaps, but I carry a gun/s to protect me and mine.

The rest will depend on the terrain.

If children are involved, and I can move away from my wife of 56 years, I will likely become involved.

I did my 20, active participant in three wars--and your experience??
KC135 is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 05:09 PM   #24
TexasSeaRay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 810
So basically, David, what you're advocating is "Leave it to someone else," right? That if it's not your job or you don't stand to gain something from it, then don't bother?

"Me first" isn't what either built or made this country. Self-determination, self-reliance, courage and teamwork is what made this country and made it great.

I grew up in farm and ranch country. We helped our neighbors and they helped us. We looked out for them and they looked out for us. Together, we all did well.

But if our neighbor's combine went down and we hadn't helped, he would've lost a lot of money not being able to harvest. When lightning struck our barn, our neighbors could've said "to hell with it--I'm not risky MY ass." After all, they weren't trained firefighters and there was absolutely zilch in it for them.

Fact is, the way we were raised and brought up, we never gave it a second thought that we'd help out. We had a lot of transient cowboys and workers come through every year. Some of them got sick, some ended up having financial problems, etc. Know what? We helped them out too, even though we didn't know them.

Maybe that's why I prefer country folks to most city folks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KC135
I did my 20, active participant in three wars--and your experience??
Nine years active duty, with operations in Iran in '79 and '80, Central America (El Salvador, Nicaraugua, Panama), Grenada and then recalled for the Persian Gulf War. Federal narcotics agent for ten years before getting out and going into the private sector in a completely unrelated field.

If you've been married for 56 years, I'd guess you spent a little time driving around some of the early A model 135's with the water-cooled engines that redefined what "loud" is?

Jeff
__________________
If every single gun owner belonged to the NRA as well as their respective state rifle/gun association, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today.

So to those of you who are members of neither, thanks for nothing.
TexasSeaRay is offline  
Old December 15, 2007, 08:42 PM   #25
Perldog007
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2007
Location: Estados Unitas / United States
Posts: 968
David Armstrong is right.

If his school was in my area it would be on my must attend list.

I still say with mall shootings becoming common enough to discuss not only here but amongst the sheeple, this fat guy is keeping his large target out of malls unless absolutely necessary.

If the mall management was serious about security we wouldn't be having this discussion.

MY guess is that if the malls in your locale are properly guarded and ccw permit holders are welcome you ain't gonna have the problem. Here in the "hamburger alley" mall zone - take your business elsewhere.

If you feel an unquenchable desire to go forth and confront these evil doers, get the job title to do so. No matter which way you go, stay safe and avoid trouble.
Perldog007 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11679 seconds with 7 queries