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Old December 4, 2007, 11:28 AM   #1
Full-choke
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Single/Double Set Triggers - What the hell happened here?

So once again my buddy and I went on a huge rant this morning. What in the world has happened to single and double set triggers on classic and performance rifles? The only company offering this is CZ (While good, not American made) what is everyone else thinking? See, if there was an American manufacturer offering this on all their products like CZ I would own a pile of these rifles. Ruger, good mauser action...no set trigger. Remington, hell they don't even blue their rifles anymore. Savage, the Accu-trigger is close, but I want to see better!

Is anyone with this on me?!?! Is there at least a good after market set trigger out there for American made guns?

Ranted...
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Old December 4, 2007, 12:27 PM   #2
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Unfortunately, lawyers and the dumbasses who hire them have litigated good triggers out of existence. Double set triggers would be great but I'd be happy to just get a crisp 3-4lb single trigger on production guns without 14 different safeties designed to save the idiots from themselves. There will have to be a huge resurgance of personal responsibility before we see such things on standard production guns ever again.
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Old December 4, 2007, 12:32 PM   #3
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I have to agree with Craigon this. But I am a firm believer in the double set set-up. I am thinking of doing this to one of my mausers.

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Old December 4, 2007, 01:00 PM   #4
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While it is a neat concept, in overall hunting, and I am basing on this on articles and forum discussions at a certain "campfire" forum site, it is better overall to just have a good, super crisp and consistent 3lb pull trigger. I do not own a CZ but have several pre-war sporters, and also one Mauser that had a Canjar trrigger installed. The cost to in stall those is really-really high, because there is a lot of milling and handwork, and also the same for the stock, but to a lesser degree. oh, forgot that with the double-trigger, you will very likely have to modify the floorplate and may even have to replace the triggerguard as well, and all that will require refinishing - alot of work!
Also, unless you shoot them ALOT, you will have a little harder time with the dbl. trigger setup, because it changes your length of pull, and you can get fumbled up going from trigger to trigger, as I have.

The CZ/Canjar type are a better idea if you decide to go that route, because you just nudge the trigger forward to set it, but there are still issues with installing them in a firearm - they are really a PITA to fit and get going.

Also, there is the issue of going from a pull of a few punds to one of a few ounces, not unlike the double-action auto-pistols that you see - this has been a point of limitied controversy for many years. Yeah-yeah, I know, now for all this I will get little one-sentence responses like "I don't have problems with my so & so," but I am just stating the experience of having worked in firearms sales for about 20 years, plus some instruction expereince. I can also site that in a recent RIFLE magazine articel, Mike Venturino was discussing double-sets when used in BPCR competition, and he noted that many users get into a bad habit of "tapping/slapping" the set trigger. So it is real and does happen, and is a factor.

Now, that does not mean that is a bad thing, and went away for a reason. My personal bet is that it was due more to cost and possible litigation that caused them to go away, and they are just super-cool to boot. If used by someone who shoots often and takes the time to really learn how they are used, or takes the time to "scout" his potentital area to give himself enough time to set the triggers, then they are a superior hunting tool.

For the average joe, it is better to sitck with a trigger about 3lbs, and that is why the savage is so popular, it allows adjust ment by the average Joe and yet keeps the lawyers happy too.
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Old December 4, 2007, 01:05 PM   #5
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I am confused, what exactly does a good two stage have over a good single stage on a Rifle. Now I do have aRRA AR-15 and a Bushy and the trigger on the RRA is much better. I just don't know the reason.
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Old December 4, 2007, 01:37 PM   #6
TheShootist1894
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Not looking for benchrest. . .

I want a trigger that is safe. . . set triggers are just that
Dont point a gun at anything you dont expect to kill, dont disengage the saftey until you are ready to fire, DONT SET THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO FIRE
The glory of a set trigger setup is that you have the option of a 3-4# trigger unset and a Match grade <1# trigger when you want it

They should be on every rifle made, either in the double set Mannlicher style, or the single set CZ/Canjar trigger style

If you are responsible enough to own a gun(whole other argument) you are responsible enough to have a nice trigger!
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Old December 4, 2007, 01:47 PM   #7
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AMEN SHOOTIST!

Set triggers really aren't on AR's there Dirty Harry, just fyi. You would find a single or double set more on a hunting or target bolt guns more then anything else. The whole point of the set trigger is to give you the heavier trigger or a very crisp, very little creep, few ounce trigger. It literally enables you to flick the trigger and it would go off.

I'm still all for them, I think it is a lot better then a fully adjustable trigger that I have to take to a smith or adjust myself outside the stock. Give me the option for what I want in the field like CZ!

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Old December 4, 2007, 01:53 PM   #8
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Quote:
I am confused
Understandly so, double set triggers are not very common these days. Here's how it works. The double set trigger is not to be confused with a two stage trigger or double triggers on double guns where one trigger operates each barrel. With double set triggers, there are actually two triggers. The front trigger is the only one to release the sear. Unset, ideally it would be 3-4lbs and used for most purposes. Squeezing the rear trigger "sets" the front trigger. In this mode the front trigger typically breaks very light, ideally under one pound. The idea is that you will use it unset most the time and only "set" the front trigger for those times that a lighter letoff will be advantageous, either on the range or in the field.

That early "bucket scene" in Quigley Down Under is a good example of a double set trigger in use.
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Old December 4, 2007, 02:04 PM   #9
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One of the reasons you don't see set triggers is the liability, as stated above. But also, the way we hunt here in the USA is not set trigger friendly.

In Europe, typical hunting situations are stand hunting driven game, shooting from a stand, very good situations for a set trigger. You hear the drivers coming your way, you spot the game, the forester/gamekeeper tells you which animal to shoot (yes, gamekeepers control which animal is shot), you set the trigger and fire from a rest.

Until about 20 years ago, hunting here in the USA was typically still-hunting, spot and stalk, or brush busting, all of which present shooting situations that are much more improvised, and having a rifle that is readied for the shot on an instant's notice. No time for deliberate setting of the trigger, and often no shot actually taken which would require the set trigger to be unset somehow. In those situations, a set trigger is of limited value. But a good trigger is priceless.

Set triggers typically have pretty stout non-set pull weights, just the nature of the beast. A good crisp 3# trigger pull is always the same no matter what. The cost of a set trigger is important in the manufacturing of firearms here in the USA, with many people being very price sensitive, so much so that a few dollars made the difference between a sale and the customer buying someone else's rifle. In Europe, there is no tradition of popular hunting, as hunting is a hobby for the well-to-do, and cost is not as much of an issue. One reason lever actions were so popular here was they cost a lot less, not because there were no other options available.

Anyway, add it all up, and there is little chance a USA manufacturer will start installing single set triggers any time soon. If you really want a US-made single set trigger, contact Canjar and buy one. They are pricey (all Canjar triggers are), but they are relatively easy to install and work like pure magic.
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Old December 4, 2007, 03:22 PM   #10
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Having tested a couple CZ rifles with the set triggers (and other set triggered rifles over the years), had I kept them I would never have used the option.
I personally have no use for them (doesn't mean they should not exist), and I think the greatest market majority doesn't either. At least in this country.
Excellent point on a set trigger for ground hunting. I wouldn't want to be moving around with a 1-pound trigger on a loaded chamber, regardless of the safety lever.
Set triggers are at their best in target guns, not in general purpose applications.
When I ordered a custom Shiloh Sharps rifle in .45-70, it was a carry rifle as opposed to a long range target gun, and I paid extra to NOT get the double set trigger arrangement. Waste of good steel in that second trigger!
The lightest trigger on a rifle that I own is close to 2.5 pounds. That's as far as I want to go, I don't like a featherweight trigger on a utility rifle & I like to feel some definite pressure against my finger when I start the shot.
I find that no matter how careful I am with a very light set trigger, I shoot other rifles normally in the 3-5-pound range, and I tend to throw a shot now & then before I'm entirely ready with an ST. Shooting one rifle only, I could adapt, but not when the set trigger would be only a small percentage of what I shoot.
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Old December 4, 2007, 03:54 PM   #11
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I wish I could hear Hemingway of Col Jeff Cooper weigh in on this. I suspect they would say something to the effect that the classic art of riflecraft as they knew it has died a quiet and shameful death.
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Old December 4, 2007, 04:53 PM   #12
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I have double set triggers on my Hawken .50cal and my Sharps rifle, they are both great triggers that are easy to use and adjust. I use each for hunting with no problems, you don't have to use the set trigger. I would like to see more of them, or the kind of triggers like what CZ uses. A really good crisp trigger pull is a great thing to have.
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Old December 4, 2007, 05:02 PM   #13
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even though a good set trigger is certainly better ( I have several CZ's, & a couple older rifles with set triggers )... I think the closest you get now, in an American made gun, is the Savage accutrigger... which is actually pretty decient...
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Old December 5, 2007, 08:03 AM   #14
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Some thoughts on set triggers.
First, the lock time with double set triggers is slower than molasses in Alaska, as compared to a good single trigger. Although you may feel that pulling the front trigger of a double set trigger, because it is less than a one pound pull, is going to provide for better accuracy, that isn't true when comparing it to a good Jewell trigger that breaks at 2 ounces; again because of very slow lock time with the double trigger set up. When you pull the front blade of a double set up, the break activates a kicker, which in turn releases the sear, kind of Rube Goldberg to me, and others too.
The single set triggers are better, but not in the same league with a good Jewell, or any other good aftermarket trigger available today, in terms of accuracy. I have three Canjar single set triggers and two CZ 527's with single set triggers and shoot all of them in the standard, non-set mode. This is because I can get "into" the pull in the non-set mode far better than the triggers when in the "set" mode. I just don't have the feel for the triggers in the set mode, even though they break at 13 ounces.
The very best triggers in the world are those German two stage triggers like the ones that FWB makes for their olympic air rifles like the FNB 603, and the Anschutz triggers like the 5018 on the Anschutz Model 54 22 Rimfire Silhouette rifles. They are the ultimate in trigger design, and fabrication. I owned both of these rifles previously.
For my personal sporting/hunting rifles, I like to work the single stage triggers to a good 18-24 ounce pull with no creep or post travel, just a great break. I do have rifles with 2 ounce triggers but they are target rifles. I have a pair of Martini's with triggers that break at a 7 ounce pull, and they are good enough to sleep with... Awesome!! No single set or double set trigger can match these triggers.

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Old December 5, 2007, 09:16 AM   #15
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Martyn, isn't the thrust of what you're saying about the Jewell trigger merely another case of technological advances? Its drawback is that a trigger with only a two-ounce pull isn't a wise choice for a hunting rifle.

My only real experience with a single-set trigger was years ago with a Canjar on a heavy-barrelled Ruger .220 Swift. I can't see that lock time was a problem, as I regularly got 3/8 MOA groups and regularly got one-shot ruinations on feral cats at 300 yards. IIRC, the non-set pull was crisp and clean and around three or four pounds--which means I had a choice of equally useful triggers as the particular situation dictated.

I have a 100+-year-old .22 rimfire Schutzen rifle with double-set triggers. It's strictly a slow-fire target critter. Lotsa fun, but I don't see the setup as real practical for any other use.

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Old December 5, 2007, 11:30 AM   #16
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Well I don't have it done yet, but Ken aka WildAlaska sold me a Zastava action with double set triggers. I'm having it built into a .25-06 for long range work. I think with the advacement of the newer triggers today the need for double or single set triggers just isn't necessary. I'm pretty happy with most of my Timney triggers as long as the pull is clean and crisp between 2-4 lbs.

I still love the looks of a bolt action rifle with double triggers like the old Steyr's.
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Old June 12, 2012, 08:58 AM   #17
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Marty4802

Are those Marinis BSA International MkIII by any chance?

If so, let me point out that they in fact use a separate mechanism to trip the main sear on the hammer.



And the lock time is not really noticed by any normal shooter when using a Set trigger. In fact the firing pin stroke can be shortened and a heavier spring used, something that would make a normal trigger too heavy.

There are no Olympic Free pistol shooters that do not use a Set trigger, and they shoot very long barrelled handguns with slow moving bullets (.22LR).
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Old June 12, 2012, 09:00 AM   #18
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Hey, Axel! Check the date! Five years late, unfortunately.
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