The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 3, 2007, 08:53 PM   #1
PWK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2000
Location: Pearland, TX
Posts: 297
30-06 M1 rifle ballistics

Just wondering what the muzzle velocity and energy were for a 150 gr. FMJ ball ammunition as fired from a garand. Specifically the Lake City armory ammo.
__________________
NRA member, TSRA member
PWK is offline  
Old December 3, 2007, 09:04 PM   #2
MTMilitiaman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2004
Location: NW Montana
Posts: 1,875
Quote:
.30-06 Military Cartridge Charactaristics

As issued in 1906 the rimless cartridge held a 150-grain spitzer, flat-base cupronickel jacketed bullet with 2700 fps muzzle velocity. In 1926, to improve machine gun effective range, the bullet was replaced by a 172-grain 9-degree boattail design with the same 2700 fps at the muzzle, designated the "Ball, caliber 30, M1." The velocity was reduced for a time to 2640 fps, but in 1938, as the gas-operated Garand came into service, the specs returned to the flat-base 150-grain loading, called the "Ball, caliber 30, M2" round. It was the M2 that accounted for most of the ammunition expended in World War II.
http://www.olive-drab.com/od_firearms_ammo_30-06.php
__________________
"...nothing says 'I WILL shoot every last one of you before you have time to reconsider your poor choices in life' like an AK."
~Dave R.
MTMilitiaman is offline  
Old December 3, 2007, 09:44 PM   #3
cobra81
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2005
Location: Land of Lincoln
Posts: 299
I bought a bunch of Lake City ammo from CMP when I got my M1 Garand last year. Headstamp 68. I ran some of it over my chrono and averaged around 2650 fps. with it.
cobra81 is offline  
Old December 4, 2007, 02:56 AM   #4
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,215
According to the old books

Small Arms of the World (10th edition) lists M1 Garand rifles at 2805fps (M2 ball)

Cartridges of the World (3rd edition) lists M2 Ball as 2740 +/- 30 ft/sec

Individual chronographed speeds from different weapons may vary as much as 100fps with the same lot of ammo. A much smaller variation is more common, but 100fps is not unheard of. Lots of small factors come into play, mostly having to do with the relationship between the ammo and the barrel., as well as temprature and even elevation. A new "tight" barrel may shoot measurably "slower" than an old worn one. Then again, it may not. Each rifle is an individual, and so the "actual" published figure for velocity is only an approximate.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old December 4, 2007, 08:08 AM   #5
PWK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2000
Location: Pearland, TX
Posts: 297
I have been shooting the lake city ammo through my Garand but would like to try some Remington Core Lokt for deer hunting. It is rated at 2900 fps, so given the variation in military ammo it would seem that 2900 fps wouldn't be unacceptably high.
__________________
NRA member, TSRA member
PWK is offline  
Old December 4, 2007, 08:38 AM   #6
TNT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2006
Location: Back in glorious Nebraska
Posts: 606
I think I would more likely believe the 2700-2800fps range IMO
__________________
"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man and brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
TNT is offline  
Old December 4, 2007, 08:43 AM   #7
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Starkville, MS (new to MS)
Posts: 4,707
I normally shoot 150grn Rem Core Loks. I'm sighted in 1 3/4" high at about 115 yds. I tried a bunch of no-name ball fmj ammo and was now grouping almost an inch low at the same distance. The ball ammo wasn't loaded nearly as hot as the Rems.

I don't know about Lake City stuff, but this tells me that there is quite a bit of variability in the various choices.
Doyle is offline  
Old December 4, 2007, 01:36 PM   #8
30Cal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2002
Posts: 1,096
Quote:
I have been shooting the lake city ammo through my Garand but would like to try some Remington Core Lokt for deer hunting. It is rated at 2900 fps, so given the variation in military ammo it would seem that 2900 fps wouldn't be unacceptably high.
It's the pressure at the gas port that matters, not the velocity. If you've got questions as to whether it's suitable, it's worth a 10¢ call to the ammo manufacturer.
30Cal is offline  
Old December 4, 2007, 04:06 PM   #9
rgitzlaff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 517
I second that motion. Call the ammo manufacturer to find out if the pressure curve is okay for the Garand. I know that varget and 4895 are okay in the garand, but anything slower burning may bend your op rod. Happened to me a couple of times before I wised up and realized you can't just put any old .30-06 through that rifle. Now I handload or shoot factory loads meant for the garand.
rgitzlaff is offline  
Old December 5, 2007, 07:07 AM   #10
Swampy1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2007
Posts: 130
Ditto both .30 cal and rgitslaff posts....

The pressure curve of M1 gas system safe ammo is determined by bullet weight and burn rate of the powder used, NOT by muzzle velocity.

Trying to figure out by rated velocity whether or not a load is M1 safe is not possible. It is quite easy to create two different loads, both using the same bullet, but with two different powders and have the one with the LOWER velocity have a HIGHER gas port pressure.

Best to all,
Swampy

Garands forever
__________________
Pres-CEO Swampworks Inc. / JLK Bullets http://www.swampworks.com
The difference between a Hot Dog and a Weenie is a very fine line.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
Swampy1 is offline  
Old December 5, 2007, 08:31 AM   #11
PWK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2000
Location: Pearland, TX
Posts: 297
Thanks for all the responses. I'll contact Remington to see what they say.
I ordered 1000 rounds of lake city a while back from JG in Arizona and that is all I've been shooting.

The Garand is a really fun gun to shoot. Maybe since the gun is sooo heavy and shoots a big bullet with little felt recoil people like to shoot it. I took it to my brother's ranch over thanksgiving and many wanted to shoot it. I finally had to take the gun away from my younger sister.

Ditto the Garand's forever!
__________________
NRA member, TSRA member
PWK is offline  
Old December 5, 2007, 09:42 AM   #12
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 4,037
Quote:
The pressure curve of M1 gas system safe ammo is determined by bullet weight and burn rate of the powder used, NOT by muzzle velocity.

Trying to figure out by rated velocity whether or not a load is M1 safe is not possible. It is quite easy to create two different loads, both using the same bullet, but with two different powders and have the one with the LOWER velocity have a HIGHER gas port pressure.
Yes and no. Lot acceptance of Garand powder had a velocity criteria, a breech pressure criteria, peening, and a gas port pressure criteria. I have the lot acceptance sheets for two different lots of WC 852. At the powder vendor they measured pressure in a pressure barrel, and velocity. There is the notation that a couple of Garands functioned with the ammunition, and there is the comment that no peening was observed.

Velocity was controlled. I can guess because they had all these rifles with permanent marking on the elevation knob, maybe there were other reasons. But ammunition was kept within velocity tolerances. They also “corrected” the contractor pressure barrel reading to the Frankford Arsenal pressure barrel. They fired a round that met the 2740 fps/pressure criteria in the Frankford Arsenal pressure barrel, and took the reading in the contractor pressure barrel. And used the differences as a “correction”.

What I saw was that the Frankford barrel was a fast barrel, and velocities in the contractor barrel were closer to 2650 than 2740.

The first year the CMP contracted Federal Ammunition to use in the Garand Matches, the ammunition was too hot. Now it may have been made to SAAMI specs, but the stuff chronographed close to 2900 fps and it caused malfunctions. My shooter had his gun jam up because the port pressure was too high. This happened to a lot of people. It took about two years for the CMP to change the spec, but now CMP ammunition shoots around 2700 fps.

So I will say the first statement is mostly correct, particularly when you get to the safety aspect.

As for velocities, without pressure gages and port pressure gages, how can we determine if the ammunition is right for a Garand?

Velocities are the easiest way to determine if you are loading correctly for a Garand. That is use powders that give appropriate port pressures (4895, H4895, 2495, AA2520, etc) and load them up to the velocity you get when you fire LC in your rifle. Which will be between 2650 – 2700 fps with a 150 grain bullet.

Your Garand was designed to use ammunition made in 1936. It was not hot ammunition, even by the period, and it is certainly not hot today. Many lots of ammunition were in the 40,000 psi range.

When you use modern ammunition at high port pressures you will have malfunctions. The rifle will be opening and closing too quickly. You may have all sorts of strange clip jumping, bolt overrides, failure to feed, failure to extract, who knows. And it will beat up the rifle as things are slamming and banging too much.


I reload for my Garands, a nice reload that I have used is 150 gr SMK, 47.0 grs IMR 4895 LC cases CCI #34. The same load with a 168 SMK will function just fine in a Garand.
Slamfire is offline  
Old December 5, 2007, 02:33 PM   #13
MTMilitiaman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2004
Location: NW Montana
Posts: 1,875
Wow. Great info Slamfire.
__________________
"...nothing says 'I WILL shoot every last one of you before you have time to reconsider your poor choices in life' like an AK."
~Dave R.
MTMilitiaman is offline  
Old December 5, 2007, 02:42 PM   #14
fspic
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2005
Posts: 77
A lot of these questions can be answered on a Google search. Chuck Hawkes has very detailed writings on all things pertaining to ammo, ballistics, AI variants, bullet drops, etc.
fspic is offline  
Old December 5, 2007, 03:24 PM   #15
Swampy1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2007
Posts: 130
Quote:
As for velocities, without pressure gages and port pressure gages, how can we determine if the ammunition is right for a Garand?

Velocities are the easiest way to determine if you are loading correctly for a Garand. That is use powders that give appropriate port pressures (4895, H4895, 2495, AA2520, etc) and load them up to the velocity you get when you fire LC in your rifle. Which will be between 2650 – 2700 fps with a 150 grain bullet.
This is correct... but does not address the original issue that with many commercial loads the powder type is UNKNOWN and in many cases may be outside the parameters of safe burning rate for the M1. In cases of ammo using powders with unknown burn rate the velocity can be within the same range as M2 spec, but still have a port pressure that is OUTSIDE the safe range.

Swampy

Garands forever
__________________
Pres-CEO Swampworks Inc. / JLK Bullets http://www.swampworks.com
The difference between a Hot Dog and a Weenie is a very fine line.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
Swampy1 is offline  
Old December 5, 2007, 04:07 PM   #16
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 4,037
Quote:
This is correct... but does not address the original issue that with many commercial loads the powder type is UNKNOWN and in many cases may be outside the parameters of safe burning rate for the M1. In cases of ammo using powders with unknown burn rate the velocity can be within the same range as M2 spec, but still have a port pressure that is OUTSIDE the safe range.
Swampy, you are so right. Unless the ammunition is US GI, it was not produced to be compatible with the Garand. Commerical manufacturers simply claim their ammunition is within "SAAMI" specs. A furniture truck could drive through "SAAMI" specs and be within tolerances. No makes ammunition taking Garand limitations in consideration. Except handloaders.
Slamfire is offline  
Old December 5, 2007, 04:20 PM   #17
azredhawk44
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 6,465
Quote:
No makes ammunition taking Garand limitations in consideration. Except handloaders.
Were somebody to come along and "compel" me to become a betting man, I would guess that the Federal American Eagle .30-06 150gr FMJ sold in red boxes at Sportsman's Warehouse and other retailers is Garand compatible.

If I owned a Garand I would still call Federal to find out, but their 150gr .308 FMJ-BT is marketed to the FAL/M1A crowd and runs perfectly in my M1A.

JMHO, FYI, YMMV, TGIF, WTFBBQLOL.
azredhawk44 is offline  
Old December 6, 2007, 07:00 AM   #18
Swampy1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2007
Posts: 130
Quote:
Were somebody to come along and "compel" me to become a betting man, I would guess that the Federal American Eagle .30-06 150gr FMJ sold in red boxes at Sportsman's Warehouse and other retailers is Garand compatible.
YOu would probably lose that bet....

The Am-Eagle load previously mentioned... that the CMP used that first year of the JCG was the standard Fed Am-Eagle. It was way too hot for the M1. The next year Federal did a "Special Run" of ammo just for the CMP to use which was much less stressful on the op-rods.

Best regards,
Swampy

garands forever
__________________
Pres-CEO Swampworks Inc. / JLK Bullets http://www.swampworks.com
The difference between a Hot Dog and a Weenie is a very fine line.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
Swampy1 is offline  
Old December 6, 2007, 08:15 AM   #19
shooter_john
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2002
Location: ALABAMA
Posts: 1,472
rgitzlaff...

I just got my first Garand. Would anyone care to share some of these M1 handloading recipes? Thanks in advance!
__________________
TROTAC.com
shooter_john is offline  
Old December 6, 2007, 08:47 AM   #20
Swampy1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2007
Posts: 130
Quote:
I just got my first Garand. Would anyone care to share some of these M1 handloading recipes? Thanks in advance!
Back in the 50's, when the M1 rifle was first being made available for civvy Highpower shooters to compete with, the techies at Springfield Armory (The REAL one) handed down the following "M1 gas system safe load rules" for the NRA and CMP to pass on to civilian shooters.

1) NEVER shoot bullets HEAVIER than 180 grains
2) NEVER shoot powder that is SLOWER than IMR-4320

As long as you stick with BOTH these rules your ammo will be safe for the M1's gas system.

Any variety of 4895 powder and a 147-152 grain bullet will dupe the standard M2 round. The perennial Highpower target load for the M1 over the last 40-50 years has been a 168-175 grain Match bullet over IMR-4064 powder.

Best to all,
Swampy

Garands forever
__________________
Pres-CEO Swampworks Inc. / JLK Bullets http://www.swampworks.com
The difference between a Hot Dog and a Weenie is a very fine line.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
Swampy1 is offline  
Old December 6, 2007, 09:26 AM   #21
rgitzlaff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 517
Yup, listen to Swampy, he knows more about this than I do. You can also use Varget for a powder. Use the right powder and bullet weight and work your load from there, using charges and OAL from your loading manual.
rgitzlaff is offline  
Old December 6, 2007, 11:06 AM   #22
shooter_john
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2002
Location: ALABAMA
Posts: 1,472
Thanks!

Looks like the rules are easy enough to follow.
__________________
TROTAC.com
shooter_john is offline  
Old December 11, 2007, 07:52 AM   #23
PWK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2000
Location: Pearland, TX
Posts: 297
Here is the reply from a note I emailed to Remington.

"Theoretically, the powder we use in our 30-06 loads is too slow for the Garand. The theory being that slow powders create high pressure at the gas port in the rifle. This could lead to operating rod damage. We don't know of any instances of this with our ammunition but use your own judgment. Thanks!"

I suppose since most ammo manufacturers load 30-06 for bolt action rifles pretty much all such ammo would be unacceptable for the Garand.
__________________
NRA member, TSRA member
PWK is offline  
Old December 12, 2007, 01:27 AM   #24
radom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2000
Posts: 1,296
I dont think I would say that new 30-06 is loaded just for bolt guns but more like new ammunition is not loaded for a 1936 type self loader that needed specialy designed ammunition to work right.
radom is offline  
Old December 12, 2007, 09:07 AM   #25
Swampy1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2007
Posts: 130
Quote:
for a 1936 type self loader that needed specialy designed ammunition to work right.
The ammo was NOT designed for the M1 rifle.... The US cal 30 cartridge existed long before the rifle. The rifle was designed around the pressure curve of the existing stocks of cal 30 ammo.

Remember..... the M1 rifle is NOT chambered for the "30-06 Springfield" cartridge. This designation is a commercial name, not one given by the US military.

The US military cartridge that the M1 rifle fires is the "US caliber 30" cartridge (Says so right there on the heel of the receiver.) and has it's own specifications as to bullet weight, powder type, pressure curves, etc.... The commercial "30-06" cartridge specs are determined by SAAMI and give no consideration to the needs of US military weapons, then or now.

Conversely, there was no need by USGI equipment designers to consider the possibility of commercial ammo ever being used in their rifles. These were US military combat arms and the only ammo that could-would ever be used in those weapons in their primary usage (Military-combat) would be the ammo supplied by the military.

Swampy

Garands forever
__________________
Pres-CEO Swampworks Inc. / JLK Bullets http://www.swampworks.com
The difference between a Hot Dog and a Weenie is a very fine line.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
Swampy1 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14113 seconds with 7 queries